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ISFb&fGroup ISF Summit Group Minutes (14.8.03) plus other information

category national | public consultation / irish social forum | press release author Wednesday August 20, 2003 22:01author by Irish Social Forum - Irish Social Forum Report this post to the editors

Minutes of a Meeting held on Thursday August 14 2003 @ 7.30pm in the Teachers' Club

ISFb&fGroup ISF Summit Group Minutes (14.8.03) plus other information


A Cháirde,


Minutes of last week's meeting are below.


Also included are :


request for help doing an ISF stall in Dún Laoghaire this weekend;


report from buildings and finances group on likely costs facing us


Slán,


John

A Cháirde,


Minutes of last week's meeting are below.


Also included are :


request for help doing an ISF stall in Dún Laoghaire this weekend;


report from buildings and finances group on likely costs facing us


Slán,


John

Irish Social Forum (Co-Operation and Solidarity Summit Group)


Minutes of a Meeting held on Thursday August 14 2003 @ 7.30pm in the Teachers' Club, 36 Parnell Square, Dublin 1.




Attendance :


John Meehan, Willy Cumming, Mark Grehan, Paul Dillon, Ion Anghel, Paul Kinsella, Niav Keating, Paul Cummins, Jean Somers, Brian Cuddy, Orla Walsh, Pat Clafferty, Rosanna Flynn, Joe Kelly.

Apologies :

Marnie Holborrow, Justin Moran, Brendan Young, Barry Finnegan

Nomination of Chair and Minute-Taker :

Chair : Joe Kelly, Minutes : John Meehan

Outreach Group Report :

Paul Cummins reported that the Outreach Group has produced an Irish Social Forum CD. Volunteers to burn extra copies and bring them to the next meeting. The CD's will be put on sale in outlets such as "Cultivate Ireland", Connolly Books, and so on. If anyone has further suggestions, or would like to make enquiries, bring it up at the next meeting. The outreach group welcomes volunteers to help in its work : if you are interested please e-mail Ian McDonald : ian.mcdonald@synopsys.com. Ian participated in a NEAR FM radio discussion last Sunday, and explained the work of the Irish Social Forum.

A query was raised on what was meant by "sponsoring" of workshops. It was agreed there was some overlap between some of the work being done by the outreach group and the "workshop" group, which has drafted invitations to different organisation to run ISF workshops.

It was agreed that the Co-Operation and Solidarity Summit Group would make decisions on final contents, based responses to the invitations.


International Speakers to be Invited :



Noted that the following people had already agreed in principle to participate : Nicola Bullard, Alex Callinicos, Judith Richter

Most of the following possible speakers have been contacted - but no definite replies back from most of them so far.

Michael Moore, Greg Palast (Killian Forde), George Monbiot, Naomi Klein (Willy Cumming), John Pilger, Robert Fisk (Brendan Young), Joe Stiglitz, Susan George (Jean Somers), George Galloway (John Meehan), Denis Halliday, Christophe Aguitton (Marnie Holborrow).

It was agreed to place a deadline of August 21 on this process.

Others possible speakers mentioned for various parts of the weekend :

Richard Boyd-Barrett (IAWM), Caoimhe Butterly, Mary Kelly, Mary Robinson, Andy Storey, Bill McCamley, Rita Fagan, Richard Douthwaite, David Hickie and Peter Conlon (Beaumont Consultants), Trevor NGwane,

A point was raised about the need to contact people involved with Trade Unions. People were asked to come back with definite suggestions at future meetings. British names mentioned included Mark Serwortka and Billy Hayes.

March / Carnival :

Noted that speeches are planned for the start of the event, and are to last for about ½ an hour. It is hoped that the carnival can move from Parnell Square to the Civic Offices, and that the event can conclude by 6.00pm.

Venues :

Paul Dillon reported on negotiations regarding University College Dublin - a 600 seat hall is available, there are various small meeting rooms, media and fund- raising facilities. Booking has to be done via a recognised society, and this should not be a problem.

Orla Walsh reported on Findlater's Church (Parnell Square) - further information will be available at the next meeting of the group.

Willy Cumming reported on Temple Bar facilities - not available on the dates requested, but voluntary groups at reasonable rates can use facilities. Information can be put to future use.

European Social Forum :

A meeting took place attended by various members of the Irish Social Forum and the Irish Anti War Movement. The meeting scheduled for Wynn's Hotel on Saturday August 23 is proceeding. While some differences of opinion remain, it was agreed that as many people as possible should attend the meeting. All agreed that participants should agree among themselves who chairs and minutes the meeting, that there should be an open format (people sitting in a circle etc) where each person present would be offered a chance to air their views.

It was agreed that the Irish Social Forum (Dublin) will register with the European Social Forum; that regional Irish Social Forums would be encourage to do likewise- and that all regional Irish Social Forum groups would be consulted on the all-island Irish Social Forum registering also.

It was noted that the Irish Social Forum could send its own nominees to relevant European Social Forum meetings.

Pat Clafferty reported on a proposal from Barry Finnegan that the Irish Social Forum organise an all- island meeting very shortly after the November European Social Forum gathering, to hear feedback and reports back from the ESF, and decide on appropriate action.

The meeting agreed to endorse this proposal, and request views from regional ISF's.

Buildings and Finance Group Report :

It was agreed to take this report @ the next meeting - text of draft budget etc will be circulated.


Next Meeting :

It was agreed to re-convene on Thursday August 21 @ 7.30pm in the Teachers' Club, 36 Parnell Square.




Message from Paul Cummins
chewy@Redbrick.DCU.IE
we are trying to get a stall at the festival of world cultures this fri/sat/sun in dun laoghaire


if anyone has some time to spare on sat/sun they could helps us give out leaflets and perhpas sell the cd please contact me at 0857197145



Buildings and Finance Group Report

The following is a 'rough' estimation of budget needs as well as lines of attack for the neccessary funding required;

Expenses


Venues

TCD Friday evening Launch and first Plenary e500
Teachers Club Saturday Workshops and food e700
Main Plenary venue Saturday e1000
Sunday Morning Forum (Teachers Club?) e200
e2400

Carnival Venue(may not apply) e500


Total Venue cost approx e3000



Travel and Accomodation costs

Estimate of e300 per international speakerx5 e1500
No speaker fees.



Administration costs

Sustainable Ireland building, use of, sponsored e0
Full time admin person for four week period e1200
Ticketing and identity badge costs e400
Telephone/Internet/email e600
e2200 e2200



Press Launch e1000



Carnival/March

PA and Platform hire e1000



TOTAL COST ESTIMATE e8700






Income

Registration fee

e10 per person x600 persons weekend total e6000
(Look into Credit card facility. Registration via email/website/office
beginning one week beforehand).



Sponsorship

Estimate of 20 workshops.
Each sponsor donates e50 towards costs. e1000

Affiliation

Parties/Organisations/groups encouraged to be affiliates of ISF
Programme sponsors/launch tickets etc. e600


Fundraising activities
Pub quiz/poker classic
Gig
Sponsored walk
Tshirts,badges, cards etc. Total estimate e1000



TOTAL INCOME ESTIMATE e8600


All above are estimates only. Do not accept as definite.
All plenaries will be ticketed on a first come first served basis. All regional participants may order via telephone.Once registration fee is paid, a person can get tickets to all events for free, subject to availability.

Both buildings and International speakers must be finalised within two weeks. Sponsor letters should be finalised asap. The estimate of 600 persons attending should be at the next meeting agenda. What do people think?? Is it realistic??


See you Thursday all being well.

Pat

To find out all about the Irish Social Forum see:
http://www.IrishSocialForum.org

Related Link: http://www.IrishSocialForum.org
author by P Moorepublication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 04:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So, ye want to raise money to send people to various talking shops, are yiz going to lift a finger to stop the more than 300 low-paid community workers who are being dumped back on the dole? I hav'nt seen anything on indymedia about it, despite the fact that the INOU issued two statements about it over the past two weeks.

It's about time that the left challenged the likes of FAS, Harney, and Ahern on this issue, and also the management of the community groups who are prepared to sacrifice these workers.

Related link: http://www.inou.ie

author by No 6publication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 04:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Have these statements appeared on Indymedia? What are you doing to help them? The social forum is inclusive meaning you can get involved and particapte instead of fucking bemoaning on the sidelines. Get off your fat arse yourself

author by P Moorepublication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 09:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

My name is not Paul, I did not even indicate whether I was male or female.
By raising the subject I was trying to get people to discuss the issue here. I am not interested in engaging in a flame war with anyone, so try and keep a civil tounge in your head, there is too much of a tendency on indymedia.ie for people to fly off the handel and abuse other posters.
I know three different Pauls who would have an interest in this subject, which Paul did you mistake me for?

author by Andrewpublication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Indymedia has no full timers to write up stories for you. If you think something should be on the newswire then you should write something for the newswire rather then demanding that someone else should have already done so. Thats the way it works.

I agree that this is something that should be covered.

author by Ian McDonald - ISF outreachpublication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 13:28author email ian at theplateau dot comauthor address author phone Report this post to the editors

P Moore,

Sounds like this is an important issue that people need to bring to the Social Forum.

We'de love to hear from on it (ian@theplateau.com).

Ian McDonald
ISF Outreach Working Group

author by Major Woodypublication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 13:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So the ISF have decided to go along with the SWP manipulation of getting RBB to be the Irish representative. I'm sure I wasn't the only one waiting to see if the ISF would stand up to the vampires on this.

author by Badmanpublication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 15:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You didn't really think that the ISF was supposed to be anything more than a talking shop, did you? As soon as there was anything important to be decided, they bow down to the SWP, the leaders. Shouldn't be too long before it goes the way of GR, into a wholly-owned SWP subsidiary. I can't see the NGO types sticking around too long to get told what to do by the boy bolsheviks.

author by No 6publication date Thu Aug 21, 2003 15:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Whatever, whinging that people should sort something out that they don't know about is fucking pathetic.

Raise awareness, talk to people, post the statements here, start a campaign. Stop stamping your foot and expecting "the left" to sort it out for you.

Expecting people to sort this out for you, is laughable.

Oh and my vote is for an effiage of RBB to be burned at the start of the ISF as a symbol of everything that the ISF shouldn't be about and as an announcement that the left in Ireland needs to step away from his opportunistic style bullshit.

Alternatively, if the man himself turns up I'll bring firelighters

author by here we go againpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 00:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

is the laughable level of childishness as rampant among the international 'left' as it is in Ireland. the constant bickering is as funny as it is tiresome. it seems that no group can get anything done without a bunch of whiners and whingers poking their nose in.

im not affiliated with any group or whatever because they are all riddled with idiots. id just say to those doing any work keep it up and dont let the begrudgers get you down.

good night!!

author by Badmanpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 02:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Imagine the cheek of whining and whinging when democracy is trampled on, when your delegates are chosen by an unrelated group without asking you, before the meeting ever happens. What a pack of mean spirited begrudgers!

Word on the street is that there were even begrudgers about when Lenin and Stalin were 'getting things done', I mean people never change, they just keep moaning. Don't know what's good for them, that's the problem.

author by Good Griefpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 03:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Number 6. Is this the way you usually converse with other people? or do you only post after you have been in the pub?
What has rbb got to do with it? (I am NOT a swper)

author by here we go againpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 03:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Lenin this Stalin that. get a grip of yourself for peats sake. stop over-dramatizing your life, its as immature as all the whining.

author by Major Woodypublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 14:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Quite right, what has democracy got to do with anything. Remember Lenin made the trains run on time!

author by Badmanpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 14:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Lenin and Stalin were used as a quite obvious illustration that sometimes people should whine and moan when people are 'doing something', not as an attempt to dramatise anything nor to blow up the importance of anything. For what it's worth I think that the SWP/ISF/ESF have little or no importance to any fight for a better world.

However, democracy has been trampled on. You are trying to shut people up who complain about this and paint them as petty and whining. The truth of the matter is that democracy depends on people moaning and whining when any individual or group tries to ignore it. Anti-democratic manouveuring, on the other hand, depends upon people like yourself burying their heads in the sand and telling people to just get on with it.

Happily though, your pleas will fall on deaf ears. The SWP have already consigned the ISF to the dustbin. When RBB was selected as the ISF's delegate by the SWP, it became crystal clear that the ISF is to be nothing more than another convenient front. You really are very incompetent at these power-plays. You could have achieved the same result without revealling so clearly that the SWP was in control. Instead you decided to insult all our intelligences again and hope that we somehow didn't notice that the SWP had pulled an un-democratic coup. Not only are the boy bolsheviks dishonest, manipulative and unprincipled, they're also shit at it.

author by here we go againpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 15:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

should you really care about the SWP or whatever they are up to this week. would you not be better getting on with your own work, if you are actually doing anything. None of you are in politically threatened positions, no matter how important you believe yourselves to be. it may be irritating but you all come across as very petty indeed. we are not in the same political environment as stalin or lenin so i think any reference to them is just laughable.

author by Badmanpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 15:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To explain why people use analogies in argument:
When one points out that 'such and such is exactly the same argument as X used' you are not saying that they are the same as X, you are saying that the argument doesn't hold and attempting to prove this by illustrating an application of the argument in an extreme case where the poverty of the argument should be obvious. That is why the very point of using an analogy like this is that the example used should be as extreme as possible. We do not say that the two cases are the same, we are saying that the basic argument is the same and that, although the problems with the argument may not be obvious in the current case, if we apply the argument to another case (here lenin/stalin, often Hitler) we can clearly see the problem. I'm sorry if you already know this, but it appears from your responses that you don't understand the basic concepts of argument by analogy.

"should you really care about the SWP or whatever they are up to this week. would you not be better getting on with your own work"

Well my own work might include taking part in the ISF. Therefore, I really care about whether this is worthwhile, which necessitates among other things that it is not a front for an undemocratic bunch of clowns. I consider it to be also part of my work to advise others, who might have less experience of these things, when I consider that their good intentions are going to be cynically manipulated by these clowns. I think that, on balance, the main effect of the SWP is to drive well intentioned people away from politics and this is why I consider them to be terrible counter-revolutionaries. I think it's important to try to counteract their negative influence in any way I can, mostly by pointing out to people what they are doing. You on the other hand are helping them in their destructive work.

author by Independent Workers Union - Independent Workers Unionpublication date Fri Aug 22, 2003 20:10author address Indpendent Workers Union, Trade Union Centre, 55 North Main Street, Corkauthor phone Report this post to the editors

Just wondering is there a role for the Independent Workers Union in the Irish Social Forum? Are we welcome to participate?

Related Link: http://www.union.ie
author by New born bolshevicpublication date Sat Aug 23, 2003 13:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Fantastic, i really look forward to hear Richard Boyd Barrett and Alex Callinicos' lastest ideas. It's so revolutionary. The power of their speech will scare the shit out of the capitalists. It's going to be so exciting. I can't wait to chant one solution revolution under Joe Carolan's stewardship.
I love the SWP, they are so creative, they do so much work (paper selling, constantly recruiting new members to replace all those lazy bastards who leave the party after a few weeks/days out of sheer disgust and are forever lost to radical politics, keeping the ideas of Lenin and Trotsky alive). They are really committed to end capitalism, and that's they don't want people to get involved in adventurist actions against it. They are so right. We won't end capitalism by actually doing something about it. Only a fool would think that. What we need is another speech by Richard Boyd Barret and Michael D.
If the SWP didn't exist the CIA would have to invent it. Or maybe...

author by here we go againpublication date Wed Aug 27, 2003 15:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

quote:badman.
"Well my own work might include taking part in the ISF. Therefore, I really care about whether this is worthwhile, which necessitates among other things that it is not a front for an undemocratic bunch of clowns. I consider it to be also part of my work to advise others, who might have less experience of these things, when I consider that their good intentions are going to be cynically manipulated by these clowns. I think that, on balance, the main effect of the SWP is to drive well intentioned people away from politics and this is why I consider them to be terrible counter-revolutionaries. I think it's important to try to counteract their negative influence in any way I can, mostly by pointing out to people what they are doing. You on the other hand are helping them in their destructive work."

yes but, you still dont show me that you do anything apart from bicker and moan about other peoples work. Maybe you should counteract somebodys negative influence with a positive influence not childish banter. Dont presume that people dont understand what the SWP are about, let us know what you are about.

oh and I fully understand analogies. What bothers me is when people use exaggerated and pointless analogies that over-inflate their argument to the point of ridiculousness.

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