Bin Tax war hots up again

by Terry Wed Jan 19, 2005 00:53

And the Bin Tax waiver scheme has now gone in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown as reported recently in the Southside People:

'THE poorest residents in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown look set to lose their bin charge waiver and will now have to fork out hundreds of euro to have their bins emptied.....'

Full story at: http://www.southsidepeople.ie/index.php?option=news&task=viewarticle&sid=875

And as reported early here on this site, the waiver scheme is also gone in Limerick and Cork

See: Limerick City Manager to abolish Waiver system for bins
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67640&topic=bintax

And: Cork City Abolishes Bin Waiver
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=67966&topic=bintax

As reported in these articles before, the waiver interferes with 'competition' and the councils have been advised by the Attorney General that they cannot offer the waiver.

This is the face of privatisation for you.

However the various campaigns have all, for a long time, said that they waiver would disappear as soon as they privatised the service. How right they were!

And what's more, following this line of logic, there is no way that they can continue to offer the Green Bin service for free. Therefore they are bound to charge for recycling. This will immediately lead to a rapid reduction of the amount recycled and resulting in the folding of Oxigen company operation for that.

And then a crisis will develop.... and the solution on offer is why of course the INCINERATOR that they have been long planning for in the background for Ringsend in Dublin. Of course they don't call it an incinerator, they call it a Thermal Plant.

In the meantime, people should continue to not pay, get compost bins, recycle as much as you can. And start bringing all that excessive packaging back to the supermarkets. As far as I know they are obliged to take it. Last year there was one or two organised actions, whereby residents went down to their local supermarkets and handed the stuff back. The mangement were naturally only too happy to play the game, as they know well public opinion is very strong about this and they don't want to be seen to make any fuss.

by trickster Wed Jan 19, 2005 01:06

"a resident who owed Bin Tax arrears won his appeal case against DCC"
Great. Any chance of more details?

I do not produce much waste, so I have not put my bin out since the week just after xmas. In fact once every five weeks would be perfectly adequate for me.
Anyway, If is it refused when I do put it out I will still be able to get rid of my rubbish. I will just use the local litter bins. I might even leave some of it outside a local shop belonging to a well known Fianna Failer, and I can choose my time to do so.

by The Socialist Wed Jan 19, 2005 01:42

Cork City - Council have taken the axe to the city's bin charge waiver system. Starting 17 January, the Council will operate a double bin charge - a €255 annual fixed charge and €5 a week for tags without which bins will not be emptied.

Most pensioners will be waivered for both charges but all other householders on the waiver - including the sick, the unemployed and the low paid will be asked to pay for the tags.

This will hit low-income households to the tune of nearly €200 this year. The 14 December City Council meeting was abandoned after sharp verbal clashes between Socialist Party Councillor Mick Barry and Fianna Fail Lord Mayor Sean Martin on the issue.

Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown - The DLR Co. Council have introduced their new pay by weight and pay by volume system for waste collection: A fixed standing charge of €80 per annum, plus €4 every time your bin is collected, plus a further charge of 20 cent per kilo of rubbish billed every six months.

A full bin will cost aproximately €8 per collection. Even with re-cycling and only putting your bin out once a fortnight, the bin tax in this area has gone up to €290 a year. For larger households whose bins would need to be collected weekly, the bin tax could cost up to €500 a year.

On top of these increased charges the Council has also cut the waiver system. Now every one who was previously entitled to a 100% waiver will only receive an exemption for the standing charge of €80 and will have to pay the €8 charge everytime their bin is collected.

Limerick City - Since the privatisation of the bin collection service in Limerick city, the cost of the charges has continuously been creeping up. To add insult to injury, the city management tried to abolish the waiver scheme.

The Council claimed that paying the bin waiver to the private company was illegal as they claimed this breached competition law. However after pressure was put on the Council to prove this, it was shown to be untrue and the Council management had to back off from scrapping the waiver. Instead Councillors passed a budget which included a 40% cut in the bin tax waiver.

Continues in latest issue of "The Socialist":
http://www.socialistparty.net/pub/pages/socialist002jan05/2.htm

by Reader Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:36

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6845
Unworkable Bin Charge system leading to City Health Hazard - SF

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6847
Gilmore slams new waste charges and waiver scheme in Dun Laoghaire

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6853
Labour all over the place on waste charges - Greens

http://www.politics.ie/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6857
Cullen's law a disaster for waste collection and service users - Gilmore

http://www.northsidepeople.ie/index.php?option=news&task=viewarticle&sid=917
‘We’ll dump if you don’t collect’ - SWP

by Interested Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:57

Please, please,please, there was no High Court case in November.
The Circuit Court in November upheld an appeal of a decision from the District Court.
The High Court had ruled in January 2004 on the same point of law. The Circuit Court judge differed in her judgement. Most neutral observers think she got it wrong. But that's the beauty of our system, an independent judiciary. Unless of course they find against the left, when they're accused of being in the pocket of politicians.
Most people would take their lead ftrom the higher court ruling. The Anti Bin Tax people were invited to state a case to the Supreme Court but they bottled it.
A decision from the Circuit Court may be appealed to the Supreme Court. It appears DCC is comfortable with the High Court ruling on the point of law. Another Circuit Court judge could differ from Judge Lindsay.

by Dermot 'law abiding' Lacey Wed Jan 19, 2005 13:33

A Circuit Court judgement on the next raft of cases is coming up on Monday next, so we can judge who's got it right then. As for going to the Supreme Court, it may not have occurred to Cllr. Lacey but it's a very different proposition for the cash -strapped Campaign as oppose to the Council with its endless fund of taxpayers money. In any case even if the judge allows the Council to appeal to the Supreme Court on Monday, it will delay the whole process for months and stop the Council from bringing further cases against residents.

No one in the Anti-Bin Tax Campaign claimed we would win this war in the Courts, which is why we are fighting it through mass non-payment and peaceful direct action. Bit of a surprise then for pro-Bin Tax conservatives like Cllr. Lacey and the Council that our Campaign is alive and well and fighting back in almost every working class community in the City. After all, Lacey claimed in December that the campaign was dead and that the protesters were just a few lefties. So the forty locals who turned out in East Wall to bin their own rubbish on Monday morning were all card carrying Marxist Leninists? Im sure Labour spies have told you about the good attendance at the public meetings being held across the city in recent days. Of course heres where you normally switch the argument round and admit the campaign has a mass following but then claim all those working class people are dupes of eviul trots, provos, al-qaeda etc. Heard it all before!

Oh and any comment about the Dun Laoghiare U-turn Cllr. Lacey?

by Cllr Dermot Lacey Wed Jan 19, 2005 17:24

The ability of some of your contributors to ignore the facts remain breathtaking.

Simple fact is because of the actions of some of the poseurs who claim to be on the left and the actions of this FF/PD Government the power to determine charges and the waiver has been taken out of the hands of Councillors.

So neither in Dun laoghaire of anywhere else has there been any U-Turn.

Interesting to read in the Evening Herald yesterday that the only Councillor not to attend recent SDCC meeting was - once gain - believe it or not - one Cllr Mick Murphy.

by ABTA Wed Jan 19, 2005 17:43

"Simple fact is because of the actions of some of the poseurs who claim to be on the left and the actions of this FF/PD Government the power to determine charges and the waiver has been taken out of the hands of Councillors."

Who exactly is ignoring facts? It wasn't the action of left wing poseurs. It was the actions of working class communities. You must come visit one sometime Dermot.

by ABTA Wed Jan 19, 2005 17:48

...that c*** stands for cllr.

Couldn't possibly be anything else.

by Moi Wed Jan 19, 2005 18:09

Here's the link for the thread, if all you want to do is troll!
As the SP have had a minimal role in the City campaign perhaps you might desist from your knee jerk anti-SP vitriol (justified or not).

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jan 20, 2005 10:57

Sorry that you do not like the simple statement of facts but facts they are. As for the invititation to "visit" working class communities. I don't have to I live in one and have done so proudly all my life and worked on many "real" socially progressive campaigns - not postured or manafactured ones.

I am also proud of the fact that members of that community have consistently supported me - along with others- as an elected reprsentative. Perhaps they know that even when the facts are unpalatable I will speak the truth.

by Chekov Thu Jan 20, 2005 14:24

Dermot, you have a strange concept of proofs. As far as I can see you posted up a very short, unsupported and unsubstantiated opinion with a fairly nasty insult in the middle and declared it to be a fact a couple of times. You then told us that facts are facts and jumped into game of 'I'm more working class than you' with one of our pet Trotskyist commenters. It's not exactly a tip-top example of forensic argument is it?

I'd be curious to know what you think the advantage is to the working class in the development of the bin tax from a taxation point of view. It seems pretty clear that the move towards bin collection being funded by flat-rate service charges, rather than being funded by the central exchequer, represents a trend away from progressive taxation towards regressive taxation. Do you think that this is a triumph for the working class?

by Dermot Lacey Thu Jan 20, 2005 15:25

Fair enough Chekov but given the abuse I have taken from some of your Comrades a comment from me on a web site is hardly over the top.

In terms of my "working class" credentials I am not claiming to be anything that I am not. I also know that I have a financially better lifestyle than my parents and hope that my children wil have a better one than me - that in general terms is the hope of most Working class people.

The sugestion from some of your more "loopy" comrades - and they do tend to be more middle class - that I somehow live removed from people is farcical - thats is the point I was making.

On the more substantial comment I believe that the interests of ordinary citizens are best advanced by a strong Local Government system with independent finance raising powers. That does include Local Government charges. As I have always said these need to be refined, made more progressive, better incentives for recycling etc. Some of these we managed to get through the Council this year because we worked hard on it. Outright oppositionism in my view achieves very little for working people and in the main does seem to me to be motivated by the interests of the many small sects who use such campaigns to push their political agendae rather than the immediate interests of citizens.

by Jane Roe Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:06

At least one member of the Labour party seems to realise the shortcomings of the new service charge regime.

by Terry Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:45

It is clear that it is only a matter of time before the councils start charging for the recycling service -aka. The Green Bin. Can you tell us when this is likely to happen.

My own guess is that once the whole system is privatised, because having a free Green Bin collection service will be the equivalent of a waiver system, will it not? And the Attorney General (AG) has ruled that the waiver system is basically unfair competition and that's why it is gone in Limerick and Cork, two places where the service is privatised. But in Dublin, it can still hang on until the day it is fully privatised.

My second question is: What is your position on the incinerator planned for Ringsend. It is clear incinerators largely burn what can be recycled. [e.g. paper, cardboard, plastic bottles, wood ]. The capacity for the planned incinerator is very large and would more than cope with the amount of recyclable material produced in Dublin. If the councils and the government were really hopeful and enthusatic and were actually for sustainable development and all that, then the plans for the incinerator would be shelved. But they are not.

Let me suggest, what is likely to unfold. Once the waste system is privatised, charges will come in for recycling and people will immediately stop recycling or at least there will be a lot less of it. A crisis of waste will develop -over and above the existing one, and lo behold, the incinerator will be rushed to construction, over the objections of many, because of the 'urgent crisis'. And as in may places, the levels of recycling will stagnate or fall, because the incinerator will need to be fed. Ah, but we will be told that incineration is recycling, because they recover some of the energy. It ain't recycling in my book nor in many others.

And my last question. Why have Dublin City or any other council not introduced plastic bottle recycling a long long time ago and introduced at every bottle bank rather than the limited bring centres which you must admit are a long walk for people who don't have cars. We have a US based company called Wellman International 30 or 40 miles up the road near Kells in Meath. They have been there for at least 20 years and are a major employer. They are a major recycler of plastic waste, such as PET bottles (used for Coke, Pepsi, Fanta, 7Up etc) and of the 'shampoo' type plastic bottles. They import most of the 'raw' material -i.e. plastic waste from Europe. And yet for the past 10, 15 or whatever years, there has been abolutely no effort made here. And please don't give me the blurb, about what the councils are doing now, because it is still WAY below what they should be doing.

BTW, anyone who has travelled in Europe in places such as France, will see for themselves, that they have plastic bottle recycling everywhere. Could it be that all these plastic bottles are ear-marked for incinerator?

And sure why not a fourth question. Why don't the councils just simply give out the Compost Bins for free. If they are going to have to pay commerical companies in the end to handle the councils waste, then surely the amount of waste the free compost bins would save and cut down on, would mean an immediate saving of money and reduction of waste?

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jan 21, 2005 14:49

Four questions - four replies.

1) The cost of dealing with the Green Bin is adequately covered by the existing charge do not support aditional charge for the Green Bin collection as it will discourage recycling.

2) my position on an Incinerator at Ringsend has been unambiguous from the beginning. I think it makes no environmental sense to locate an Incinerator at the heart of the City requiring hundreds of trucks travelling through the City to avail of it. I am 100% opposed to the project and have voted gainst at every single opportunity unlike others who missed out on such occasions when it suited.

3)Yes you are correct recycling facilities are way below what they should be which is why I have supported ALL proposals to have such centres and for the products to be collected by Green Bin increased. Clearly this is an example of the low powers of Councillors and a further example as to why I want Local Governance strengthened.

4) The original scheme that i was attacked for supporting did include free Compost Bins. Unfortunately as I have written before because of the actions of other people the power to determine Waste Management issues are now withing the realm of management not Councillors.

Clearly these are abbreviated answers but i hope they are clear. If not come back.

by Ringsend Resident. Fri Jan 21, 2005 19:03

"2) my position on an Incinerator at Ringsend has been unambiguous from the beginning. I think it makes no environmental sense to locate an Incinerator at the heart of the City requiring hundreds of trucks travelling through the City to avail of it. I am 100% opposed to the project and have voted gainst at every single opportunity unlike others who missed out on such occasions when it suited."

So what if the incinerator goes ahead. You claim to be 100% against it. What will you do if the plans go ahead?

By your talk and actions on the bin tax you will have to exclude any form of civil disobedience, surely?

by Dermot Lacey Fri Jan 21, 2005 19:30

I will work with every democratic campaign against the Incinerator. I will use every legal option to fight it. I believe we can win the campaign working together with everyone who is opposed to it. I will fight and work hard to change the law. I will not break the law. My record is absolutely clear on this and I believe would be substantiated by anyone genuinely involved in the battle to date.

Thanks for the btw by the way - though I had aready been told on the "other" site

by Mr. Happy Sat Jan 22, 2005 00:05

Dermo,
The fact that you were/are working class but now subscribe to a typical middle class 'social democracy ' doesn't make you unique. Rabbits new irish labour and Blairs new labour are full of such people. Those that control society and the inequality of it, depend on the likes of you to screw your 'ex' class.
But don't forget, the abiding memory most people have of your tenure as lord mayor is the front page of the evening herald showing you getting heckled by anti bin tax protesters!!! No matter how much good work you did (and i'm sure you did), this is all people will remember. Sinn Fein are just waiting to eat up labours support. You might be safe in that nice middle class constituency but your comrades are fucked.

by Astute Observer Sat Jan 22, 2005 15:39

But the new laws regarding the bin tax are bad laws. They were brought in by a corrupt political establishment who claim they represent the people but in fact represent business interests. Obeying their laws is playing the game by their rules. Whenever people find a way to defeat the powers that be even at their own game using their rules they always just change the rules. The whole system is completely loaded against us the people.

by Dermot Lacey Sat Jan 22, 2005 19:56

Over the years I have read some rubbish on Indymedia. Indeed I have also read some insightful, intelligently provocative and even occasionally useful contributions. These last comments are patent nonsense. I have many memories of events during my term as Lord Mayor I have no recollection at all of a useful or interesting even less so effective protest. I do recall the time however outside the Mansion House the night Michael Mulcahy was elected Lord mayor that the protestors had to resort to violence so weak was their argument. For me I 'll continue to put my faith in the Ballot Box - though my supporters only exercise one vote per election. Thankfully a signifcant number of those elected me at the top of the Poll. Social Democrats have done far more to improve the imperfect world in which we live than the vast array of minor and military allied groups on this Island.

In relation bad law I work to change it not arrogate to myself the right to determine what majority opinion is. As for SF overtaking Labour - " In your dreams boy, In your dreams"

by Mr. Happy Mon Jan 24, 2005 00:03

"as Lord Mayor I have no recollection at all of a useful or interesting even less so effective protest"

But Dermo, it was effective. The front page of the evening herald showing you getting heckled by anti bin tax protesters is what people will remember you for. And i know you remember it well - your last offical function and all the publicity was for the anti bin taxers giving you stick!!!!

by Dermot Lacey Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:57

Your recollections as with your view of life are clearly different from mine. i see problems and try to improve a situation - you just get your posters out. Sad really

by ABTA Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:23

"...you just get your posters out."

No we don't, your wonderful democratic council made it illegal.

by Irishtown Resident Mon Jan 24, 2005 13:22

To be honest Im not that interested in the Bin Tax issue and I dont understand a lot of the ins and outs of the argument but one thing puzzles me. Where does a busy elected representative like Cllr. Lacey find the time to mess around on Indymedia? Surely he would be better off representing us, his voters, rather than having childish arguments with people he thinks are irrelevent. I usually vote Labour, Green or independent but I'm not sure Cllr. Lacey will be on my list the next time if he is so busy messing on indymedia.

by Dermot Lacey Mon Jan 24, 2005 14:17

I don't really have the time but nor do I have the inclination to let these people away with their pretence which i believe seriusly distorts the needs of ordinary citizens and impedes the advancement of commonsense policies in the best interests of the community. By the way I was one of the Councillors who did not support the ban on Postering and have pushed for an alternative to be developed - the matter, at my suggestion is on the agenda for a future meeting of the relevant Council agenda.

by Dublin Exile Mon Jan 24, 2005 16:30

'Irishtown Resident' My Arse!!!

Keep it up Dermot, anyone with any brains knows rightly that Labour have done far more than any trot or anarchist group ever have for the ordinary punters of Dublin and the rest of the country.

Does Daithi Doolin think shooting Jean McConville wasn't a crime? I think the people of Dublin South East have a right to know!

Behind the smiling face of Mary Lou is the law of the gunman - dissenters beware!

by c*** watch Mon Jan 24, 2005 18:11

Answering your own mails under an alias isn't fooling anyone. Do the voter of Dublin South East know how stupid you are?

by anto Mon Jan 24, 2005 18:53

Thats Ringsend for you. Typical D4 whingers.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:39

Quite happy to reply under my own name. I am not Dublin exile - though agree with him and the last thing the people of Ringsend are is whingers. It is one the best communities in Ireland and though it is not in electoral area I hope I have always worked as hard for it as other parts of Dublin South East and wider Dublin.

by Irishtown resident Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:14

Not only am I the real deal but my family have lived in the area for generations and were Labour voters right back to the 1950s. All I was asking was why Cllr. Lacey was spending so much time having a go at people he thinks are not relevant. Its a fair point for me to ask an elected councillor a question dont you think.

If I was him I'd get on with my real work and stop wasting time with useless arguments.

by Dermot Lacey Tue Jan 25, 2005 14:41

Yes,

It is a fair point and I hope answered fairly. I think all Public Reps should engage in any fora in which the public wish to engage them. Indymedia is clearly such a site and while I do not agree with a lot of the comments I am happy to engage.

As for time spent. I usually open the site in the morning at lunctime and before I go home in the evening. Perhaps 10/15 minutes a day. Quite wiling to do so.

I think in terms of my contributions at City Council and other fora are concerned Indymedia time does not intervene. An example of this is that at both stages of the new City Development Plan I submitted more motions than any other Councillor and more than most parties on the Council collectively.

Have a good day

by John McDermott - removefiannnafail Thu Jan 27, 2005 00:30 jmcd444 at yahoo dot com Gran Canaria ,Spain

All this crap about recycling .
If Fianna Fail want new stealth taxes to fund local government they have made a big mistake using the rubbish/recycling theme as a cover for their impositions.
They will lose so many votes with all this s**t and nonsense that they will be sorry they did not just bring back the rates that their Godfather in criminality that B*****d Charles J. Haughey abolished to buy the electorate in his day.
Bad cess to him and his best pupil Bertie for causing so much trouble and irritation to the decent citizens of this country.
One wishes he would go stray into a farmers slurry pit somewhere,and drown in his pals, pollution.

by eeekkkk Fri Feb 04, 2005 16:40

The Green Party has claimed that a private waste company is preparing to ship 2,500 tonnes of recyclable material from Ireland to Scandinavia for incineration.
Party spokesman Dan Boyle claimed the Environmental Protection Agency was aware of the planned shipment, but may not know that the material appears to be destined for incineration.

Mr Boyle has called on the EPA to carry out an immediate investigation into the matter and has also called on the company to explain why it is apparently planning to incinerate recyclable household waste.

"If it is the case that incineration is going to be the end result of this material, then it's a massive deceit being perpetrated on those householders in the mid-west region who, we believe, are having waste collected and they think it's being recycled," he said.