Irishness Incompatible With Britishness

by lulu Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:29

No place for all the people who love Ireland and Britain and despise the governments of both?

by radical jonny Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:43

Talk to any anthropologist or geneticist:

We're all related.

To hate one or the other is, in a very real sense, self-loathing.

by Michael Hogan Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:21

To use the term BRITISH is a very misleading term, for it denies an individual of their culture.

Because to be British, a person has to be of one of the other nations that is of :- Cornwall, England, Gurnsey, Jersey, Manx, Orkney, Wales and Scotland.
Note: these small Celtic Nations are also working towards gaining freedom from the domination of the UK government that sits in London.

The term British is a collective geographical description only and relates to the island of Britain and nothing else.

From my time spent among the people of our neighbouring island. I found many who could not understand why the people of northern Ireland clung to a perceived idea of British-ness, that actually does not exist and cannot exist for them.

The peoples of the island of Britain refer to any person who comes from Ireland as Irish and they give no other distinction.

To be Irish is to come from or have allegiance to the island of Ireland. Just as to be Cornish is to come from and have sole allegiance to Cornwall.

by Olive Fri Nov 28, 2008 13:54

It's like trying to be a Celt and Roman at the same time, when in certain very basic and important ways relating to social structures and attitudes, both history and archaeology show these two ancient groups to be as different from each other as chalk and cheese - and possibly for genetic reasons, which cannot easily be altered or wished away.

Live and let live, and allow people to be themselves and to respect each other?

Related link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Differences+betwee...earch

by Jim Fri Nov 28, 2008 15:01

Instead of killing people because of dreamt up differences like race, tribe, nationality, religion, politics etc why not love your fellow human beings and live together in peace?
Let the dead bury the dead.

by FrankAdam - private citizen Fri Nov 28, 2008 15:50

As already mentioned to be British is an administrative convenience for trade, defence and diplomacy to allow the four nations of the British Isles to be treated as equal citizens with separate Scots law and separate Welsh language. If the UK breaks up it will be because the largely Tory English will declare an end to subsdising Scots, Welsh and Ulster folks in local governement and much else the Celtic Fringe have done well out of by way of careers in England and the erstwhile Empire. Remember that for her twelve years in office screwing down expenditure in England, Scotland and Wales Mrs T / Bloody Margaret never cut civil financing in Ulster.

The devils in the details are first everybody in the UK has always seen themselves according to their nation - a point that goes back to the four captains scene in Shakespeare's "Henry V". That applies to the English too, whence the confusion of foreigners to call all British "English" because after all 80% of the population lives in the 55% of the acres which are England and so the most representative abroad by sheer numbers. All of which also explains why the country as a state did not get too worked up about who we/ I - is/ were/ are .... Why it has treated all Irish who come in as if independence is abroad and not in UK; and the expression "Best of British luck.," still runs and a come day go day attitude to (other) nationalisms still prevails over a sharp eye for the bottom line.

The other - tricky - point is the jargon of modern politics comes from the French Revolution & the monoculture of Catholic France does not distinguish nation and citizenship / "statehood" in the way the four nations of the British Isles are distinct religiously as well as geographically and historically. Into the bargain France was the biggest single state and population in Europe till the 19th century and in Western Europe till German unification, therefore French and its culture was the international language and template till the full emergence of the US in 1945; so "nationality" even on a British passport carries the French interpretation of citizenship and nationality. However most civil countries recognise "dual nationality," or rather, "dual citizenship," for those of a scattered "nationality" - a point the Irish state makes by issuing passports on request to all born on the Island of Ireland thus exposing Sinn Fein as somewhat blinkered.

by Michael Hogan Fri Nov 28, 2008 15:57

There is surely nothing wrong in a small country wanting to be independent to make it's own decisions and freeing it's self from an over bearing nation.

For Ireland, Scotland and the other small nations there are no dreamt up differences - freedom from oppression in the form of civil liberties being removed from a body of people, were and are reality.

Much more than that the was the oppressor in Ireland's case, who was guilty of far greater deeds than merely removing civil liberty, lives, homes and land too were taken at whim.

Talk and debate are fine if your opponent cares to listen, learn and make policy changes to the others betterment. When there is no desire to do so, well Combat is then the only answer.

As for the dead burying the dead - well I have yet to see a corpse capable of doing any thing other than to lie very still.

by Mike Fri Nov 28, 2008 16:42

"t's like trying to be a Celt and Roman at the same time, when in certain very basic and important ways relating to social structures and attitudes, both history and archaeology show these two ancient groups to be as different from each other as chalk and cheese - and possibly for genetic reasons, which cannot easily be altered or wished away."

That's a terrible example. Many of Romans of Northern Italy and almost all of them in Cisalpine Gaul and along the Meditranian litoral about as far as "Marsala" WERE Celts. Rome was a POLITICAL state, not a "nationality".

Or considering the British Isles, many/most of the Scots were Irish and/or Scandanavian (as opposed to people of one of the "British" cultures. The fact that "Roman Britain" was Roman by organiziation/government didn't mean that the PEOPLE were immigrants from the middle of Italy.

Genetic reasons?????? You think that when the first wave of Celts invaded Italy they didn't leave their genes behind? Or that the Vikings didn't leave their genes behind in Ireland? We don't know that the earliest waves of humans who enetered and occupied Ireland were Celts (and they probably weren't -- the dates of the megaliths likely before Celts had moved that far into Europe)

by lulu Fri Nov 28, 2008 23:28

Check out 'Blood of the Isles' for our genetic history.
Are you saying we can choose to be ruled by pigs in the Dáil or in Westminster or Stormont?

by Michael Hogan Sun Nov 30, 2008 07:18

Blood of the Isles by an Oxford Don that intimates that the Irish have an average IQ of 93 - h'm not exactly a book to recommend unless
one happens to be pro-British ?

by reject Sun Nov 30, 2008 13:23

You should really change your email a/c
BritishTelecom internet.com is hardly very irish
pot kettle etc

by Mike Sun Nov 30, 2008 14:02

Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough and so possibly misunderstood.

Genetics is totally irrelevant with regard to human cultures. It matters not at all who provided the sperm or even the womb. All that matters is the culture that gets to bring up the child. None of the differences that make up the diversity of human cultures are biological differences. You aren't Irish because of your "blood" but because of the Irish "village" that raised you and from whom you learned the Irish way of being human.

by Pythagoras Mon Dec 01, 2008 08:09

To what extent do "feelings of injustice" influence "culture" in human society, and why is it that human beings (and indeed some of the higher animals such as chimpanzees for example) have a very well developed and potent "sense of justice" genetically programmed into them while in the womb (and consequently not directly influenced by "local environment" conditions external to the womb)?

1) "Justice preoccupies child and philosopher alike. The importance of fairness is evident in the meticulous manner in which children demand that it be demonstrated in every detail."

2) "Injustice is unpalatable to all age groups. It confuses the child, angers the adolescent, appals the adult and outrages those who have seen its consequences too often. This is because they know the many human systems in which injustice may locate itself and 'justify' its lodging."

3) "Being the recipient of such an injustice is more than an emotion. It is excruciatingly visceral. It invades the human psyche with the most lancing cut. Depending on the severity of the injustice, life may ever after be divided mentally between the time before and after the unjust event."

The above three excerpts are from an Irish Times Article (by a psychologist) reproduced at: http://www.europeancourtofhumanrightswilliamfinnerty.co...e.htm

Related link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Anglo+Norman+Invas...f&oq=

by radical jonny Tue Dec 02, 2008 08:07

This was in the Telly this morning:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/m....html

I'd be interested to know RSF's take on this data, as well as their strategy for recruiting those in the North who are becoming increasingly comfortable with the description "Northern Irish" and don't necessarily see "Irish" and "British" as mutually exclusive.

Now, my guess would be that the majority of those now using label "Northern Irish" are Northern Protestants; as political stability increases, the "need" for the label "British" as a psychological security mechanism against a socio-political vision of Irish Republicanism that they rejected is gradually receding or morphing into something a little more complex. Certainly before the current 'Troubles' people's use of the term "Irish" was much more nuanced and the use of Irish symbolism and labels by political Unionists was more widespread. FC Portadown play their home matches at Shamrock Park, don't forget.

The important factor, to me anyway, is the freedom to think of yourself, and label yourself, however you choose. It wouldn't be a particularly cogent political argument, when someone says, "I consider myself to be both Irish and British", to answer, "Well, you shouldn't" or "No, you don't".

This is the challenge, demographically, for RSF and similar political groupings in the coming years.

by Pgibson Tue Dec 02, 2008 13:24

My own IQ of 173 would prevent me from associating with anybody pea-brained enough to think that "Irishness" or "Britishness" is important.

The Universe was created about 14 thousand million years ago.

Each one of us has only 80 years or so of life to experience it...if we are lucky.

That is a mere tear drop in the ocean of time.

The universe would not even miss our galaxy if it blinked out.....never mind the miserable little human race.

Tiny little islands like Britain or Ireland are nothing at all in the great scheme of things.

Grow up guys.

by Euclid Wed Dec 03, 2008 08:49

Pythagoras:

What I believe you're implying (in part at least), and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that a middle-ages reincarnation of the "Imperial Roman Whore" took herself and her social diseases of greed and corruption, plus the whole gamut of closely associated social injustices, into Ireland on May 1st 1169 AD; and, that although the Whore herself was eventually chased away from the Republic of Ireland in 1921 (as outlined at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_War_of_Independence), her social diseases still run wild throughout the whole of Ireland.

QED (Quite Easily Done).

Related link: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/89848#comment239472

by Hypoteneused Wed Dec 03, 2008 09:41

Ochón agus ochón ó! That old Irish minefield of hiss-tery uprears its hydra-head again and we get fascinating generalisations about what happened in 1169 and from then onwards. When I read some posts I think I'm reading drafts for a New Comic History of Ireland. I wished I could put it into a Christmas stocking along with a bottle of cheap Spanish vinho riojo to cheer up my better half these cold days.

by Niall Wed Dec 03, 2008 16:55

You've hit the nail on the head there - fair and square.

As my old "Celtic Culture" professor used to drill into me:

"There's enough of everything in the world to meet all the needs of mankind, but not its greed."

by Aeife Thu Dec 04, 2008 08:45

Don't forget that the Whore also had Brehon Law forcibly replaced with Roman Law -- perhaps our greatest loss of all in terms of the cultural genocide thrust upon us?

Related link: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Brehon+Law%2C+Roma...f&oq=

by media watcher Fri Dec 05, 2008 00:20

The esteemed Minister for Health said that Ireland is closer to Boston than to Berlin. Since the early years after independence the republic of Ireland has been shedding its pretensions to a unique and self sustaining culture. Interesting cultural and current affairs magazines that thrived in the early 20th century disappeared. The Irish Press stable of indigenous newspapers, established with popular support in 1931, collapsed and the national-minded populace has accepted the position passively. The other two important dailies preach national self abasement and uncertainty of belief in our inherited values. The British tabloids and 'posh' Sundays have taken massive advantage of unit cost differentials to swamp the Irish print media market. Look at the shelves of a typical newsagent shop in any town the size of Castlebar and you will see few Irish produced magazines apart from sport, lifestyle and business. The imported glossy slush predominates. Our native intelligentsia, including pundits on television and radio, take their themes and spins from their ' betters' in New York or London - rarely from their betters in Paris, Rome or Berlin, which shows up how uneuropean they are regardless of their voting preferences when it comes to EU referenda.

There is no cultural genocide in Ireland, but there has been for decades a passiveness and deferential attitude towards anglo-american culture among the native intellectuals and media preachers that has inhibited the expression of original Irish thought. A cultural emptying has eaten away at society. Now that the global financial meltdown has begun to hit home we may feel free from the illusory distractions of crazy consumerism. Some of us may begin to think and do for ourselves, without taking cues from New York, London or Berlin.

by Holey Moly Fri Dec 05, 2008 09:51

With a name like Walsh (often pronounced Welsh), RW didn't have to look very far to find someone who is British and perhaps a bit Irish too. We're all mongrels, Richard.

Plus I think we're all agreed by now that killing people to create a marxist and racist island state is not a solution.

by Post Darwinian Creationist Sat Dec 06, 2008 01:47

RSF are as usual 100% over ‰ right √ in their rebuttal & rejection ± of what actually was never said. They are to be saluted and hailed hearty for their undoubted and consistently displayed competence for opposing the words which were not spoken nor even heard nor even implied. It's quite a gift that skill and in truth well befits the oldest splinter political party in our noble nation without a state ± yet yoked under 2 states.... & 32 counties without counting Fingal and Dun oLeary with its airport.

But also our President ♀ is to be appreciated for getting it ✔ in saying that there is no problem being Irish & British. As there is no problem being Nigerian & British, Scottish & British, Basque & Irish or whatever little ☂ umbrella combination of identities, tv, traditional games, languages, cuisines, work careers, or arse out of which you wish your Sun☼god to shine ☺.

Allegiance though is something else and for the most part is not really a practical issue (though I'd not deny its emotive importance to many) for most. Few of us are expected to take oaths to the Sun☼god to uphold either Irish or British states (neither of which RSF consider legitimate) and even those of us who have managed to hold on to jobs in breakfast television, global charity fund raising, or the once highly lucrative management of hedge funds, derivatives & future trading of currencies written in Gaeilge are not really required to extend any more allegiance to either Free State or Brit Queen than a member of the northern ireland assembly. But would anyone of us scallywags get through a year of high school musical with the worship of the US flag?

Thankfully these things stop looking so silly and sad and jingoist once you've started living fulltime far away from the supposed "celtic-anglo-saxon" worlds of the Irish / British dichotomy. Sooner or later one stops wearing the Irish football t-shirt just as most US citizens take the Canadian flag off their backpack. It helps to spend your days speaking other languages than English or Gaeilge to appreciate how useful and beautiful and important to you both are. & affection grows for wherever you find bargains in a supermarket, a garden that grows for you, and a cuddle regardless of the daily ☂ umbrella curse or lack of a genuinely merciful Sun☼god☺.

The Basques government, the rightwing nationalist one ,(which is the sworn enemy of the types who let you think the Basques really want to expel the Spanish and French from their mountains and city neighbourhoods if only you'd take up a collection and send them the appropriate tools for the job & is presumedly frowned upon by RSF), has recently allocated an awful lot of money to providing DNA tests to whomever is interested in knowing how Basque they are. It's all got to do with the long known fact that the Baskies have the highest proportion of the Rh negative blood type of all the peoples of the world. So they're going to examine the prevalence of Y-chromosome (Haplogroup R1b) and mtDNA (Haplogroup V) over in Idaho to help people living in Basqueland know if they really are 100% ± ‰ √ ☺ Basque.

Or maybe they just blew in on a train some time after the discovery of Rh negative blood types back in the 1920's and are thus d-i-f-f-e-r-e-n-t-


Thankfully for all of you readers who aren't Basque, or perhaps think they're Basque but worry about having Spanish grandparents, Spanish surnames or like 20% of the Iberian peninsula carrying either Arabic or Sephardic DNA sequences.............

Nothing will happen to the less than pure Basque people.
They're not going to be put up against a wall, or anything.
That would be brutal and un-civilised and not really the way to go on winning friends for a seat at the League of Nations, UEFA cup or Eurovision.

Berlusconi's Italy would still be an option though.

oh but I'm cruel to tell such home truths. It emerges that many Irish and British people carry Basque DNA too. Just like they go bald prematurely, and one in a million has a third nipple.

But RSF you may actually know someone with a Basque surname (not just a first name) who thanks to their daddy is eligible to take part in this DNA test, arrangeable online which looks at the mammy's genes to prove they're Basque not the descendent of an African ape.