OscailtNoam Chomsky & the WSM discuss politics over breakfastDuring Noam Chomsky's recent visit to Ireland five members of the Workers Solidarity Movement met him over breakfast to talk over a range of issues from Palestine to the capitalist crisis to social partnership to Iran to Obama and the US Labour Movement. Notes on the discussion are below followed by the audio recording itself.
Breaking news: Italian MP, Sgarbi denounces the Statistical Fraud on COVID-19. The speech of the Member of Parliament Vittorio Sgarbi in the session of the Italian Camera, Meeting no. 331 of Friday 24, April, 2020. Vittorio Sgarbi, denounces the closure of 60% of the businesses for 25,000 COVID-19 Deaths, of which the National Institute of Health says 96.3% died NOT of COVID-19 but of other pathologies. That means only 925 have died of the virus. 24,075 have died of other things.2009-11-10T14:52:03+00:00Indymedia Irelandimc-ireland@lists.indymedia.iehttp://www.indymedia.ie/atomfullposts?story_id=94716http://www.indymedia.ie/graphics/feedlogo.gifSo...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2619502009-11-10T14:52:03+00:00kbrannoWhat did Chomsky have for breakfast? What did Chomsky have for breakfast? Interesting discussion....http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2619522009-11-10T15:46:28+00:00Concerned socialistdublindilettante at gmail dot com...covered a lot of well-trodden ground, though. Chomsky is a great thinker and ......covered a lot of well-trodden ground, though. Chomsky is a great thinker and an honourable man, but I would question his status as an icon of the revolutionary left. Fact is, chap's a reformist and always has been, as evinced by this discussion, with its condemnation of the recent protests on the grounds that they'll alienate public opinion.observerhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2619562009-11-10T17:21:36+00:00iI'd say Chomsky sees himself as just another activist.
Nice piece of independe...I'd say Chomsky sees himself as just another activist. <br />
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Nice piece of independent media. Chomskyhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2619582009-11-10T18:27:12+00:00EmmaThanks for uploading and sharing, nice interview and talk.Thanks for uploading and sharing, nice interview and talk.chomsky is just a liberalhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2619592009-11-10T18:27:51+00:00Gearóid Ó LoingsighChomsky is a reformist. He is a liberal. He has access to a wealth of knowledge,...Chomsky is a reformist. He is a liberal. He has access to a wealth of knowledge, particularly on US foreign policy. HIs has voiced support for the US Democratic party and that about says it all about his politics.<br />
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But then and perhaps to be sectarian, most anarchists I have met are just liberals.Liberalshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620142009-11-12T09:59:04+00:00GavinMost people who consider themselves to be on the left are liberals. People who v...Most people who consider themselves to be on the left are liberals. People who vote for SP or SWP are often liberals. The dominant political ideology is liberalism. Saying that many or most anarchists are liberals isn't saying much. Perhaps you'd like to claim that the WSM is liberal? I think that would be a much harder claim to make. The vast majority of members in the WSM are revolutionary socialists.wsm and being liberalhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620162009-11-12T12:57:28+00:00Gearoid O LoingsighYes, most people who VOTE for the SP and SWP are liberal. That is correct. Would...Yes, most people who VOTE for the SP and SWP are liberal. That is correct. Would I like to claim the WSM are just a liberal organisation. Well, let us put it like this. They have, like Chomsky, many liberal qualities about them, moralism being one.Now what is fo rlunchhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620172009-11-12T12:58:21+00:00The Revolutio started after bacon and Sausages.Wow I never knew the WSM were Revolutionary Socialists. I know that this will fa...Wow I never knew the WSM were Revolutionary Socialists. I know that this will fall foul and be deleted, but honestly does the WSM have any org. or influence in Working class areas. There is no doubt that they will have members that are willing to physically challenge the status quo, but is that their own conceit and ego driving them. This is a genuine query, not a put down on the WSM. I wonder are they self-appointed guardians of the Working class.Strangehttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620212009-11-12T14:28:15+00:00AndrewThe question you ask is meaningless as anarchists don't follow a model of trying...The question you ask is meaningless as anarchists don't follow a model of trying to become "guardians of the Working class.", "self-appointed" or otherwise. The basic premise is almost the opposite in fact, that as long as the working class relies on guardians we will be stuck swapping one set of masters for another. At various times and in various places we've seen all manner of left individuals and organisations claiming the mantle of guardianship based on real or supposed support. And every time that has resulted in the class being defeated sometimes at the very hands of its supposed "guardians", sometimes because reliance on "guardians" means it fails to take the necessary steps to defeat reaction.<br />
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In relation to Gearoids comment this isn't based on 'moralism' but rather on historical experience. The 'moralists' in this equation are those leftists who follow the same model over and over in the hope that next time they will have good leaders and are convinced yesterday failings are explained by bad leaders. The fact they might call their moralism 'scientific socialism' or something similar to convince themselves it is something else is irrelevant.Liberals?http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620222009-11-12T14:43:09+00:00pat cI have come across some liberal life-style "anarchists" in my time but not in th...I have come across some liberal life-style "anarchists" in my time but not in the WSM. The WSM is a revolutionary organisation, I don't always agree with it but Iknow its members are sincere in their struggle for a better future. The WSMs struggle is not a liberal one, it is a Revolutionary Struggle.Thats my experience in working with them in campaigns.<br />
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I also think that the votes attracted by the SP & SWP are by and large from low and middle income workers. Not many stockbrokers voted for Brid Smith in Ballyfermot and few enough solicitors voted for Mick Barry in Gurranebraher. It doesn't mean their policies are the best but thers no point in caricituring their support base.Anarchismhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620412009-11-12T19:16:38+00:00Concerned socialistAnarchism, aside from being a rather jejune, adolescent creed, shares with liber...Anarchism, aside from being a rather jejune, adolescent creed, shares with liberalism and neoliberalism a preoccupation with the supremacy of the individual. As such, the step from anarchism to Ayn Rand is a small one. Significantly, there are no analogues in socialism for anarcho-capitalism or right-wing libertarianism. The concepts are simply incompatible. That tells you a lot about anarchism.freedom and societyhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620472009-11-13T00:31:32+00:00James O'BrienConcerned socialist: Anarchism, aside from being a rather jejune, adolescent cre...Concerned socialist: <em>Anarchism, aside from being a rather jejune, adolescent creed, shares with liberalism and neoliberalism a preoccupation with the supremacy of the individual. As such, the step from anarchism to Ayn Rand is a small one. Significantly, there are no analogues in socialism for anarcho-capitalism or right-wing libertarianism. The concepts are simply incompatible. That tells you a lot about anarchism.</em><br />
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Not really. It just tells us that they're a lot of fairly confused people around. <br />
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It hardly follows that since anarchism doesn't subordinate individual freedom to the needs of a highly centralised state that it is a small step to a particularly silly version of capitalism. After all, anarchism <strong>is</strong> a socialist ideology.<br />
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Bakunin, who was pretty concise on the social nature of people, condemned the myth of the social contract and the isolated primitive human in favour of viewing humans as intrinsically inclined towards collective interaction. The fact that we retain our individual consciousness makes this interaction much richer and more complex than if we were borg like cogs in a machine.<br />
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Iain McKay summed it up pretty well:<br />
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<em>"...freedom is fundamentally a social relationship. A person is born into society and can become human within society. Isolation quickly drives people insane. This means that, as Bakunin argued, liberty is a "feature not of isolation but of interaction."</em><br />
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<a href="http://www.anarchism.ws/writers/anarcho/talks/anarANDfreedom.html" title="http://www.anarchism.ws/writers/anarcho/talks/anarANDfreedom.html">http://www.anarchism.ws/writers/anarcho/talks/anarANDfr....html</a><br />
Mischaracterisationshttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620542009-11-13T11:19:10+00:00GavinAnarchism as a mass movement was never a naive anti-statism. As such, lumping re...Anarchism as a mass movement was never a naive anti-statism. As such, lumping revolutionary class struggle anarchists in with the relatively new, unrelated and never revolutionary anarcho-capitalists is entirely absurd. One might as well say that the world socialism appears in the world "national socialism" and conclude that Nazism is a small step away from socialism. The only anarchism in anarcho-capitalism is in the name, reflecting exactly the socialist content of Nazism.<br />
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Anarchists have long understood that freedom is a social good and that is why we are fundamentally anti-capitalist. We believe that this freedom will be exercised within the bounds set by a polity which will be created by the working class through revolution. The belief in liberty is not anti-socialist, in fact quite the opposite. You can't have socialism without liberty since any group that imposes arbitrary authority will quickly become the elite class, and class society will be recreated. <br />
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It's interesting that when anarchism is attacked from the left, the attackers so often set up straw men. There are very real differences between anarchism and other left ideologies. It would serve us well to debate on those differences rather than mischaracterisations or associations with ideologies we denounce. Sometimes I question whether the anarcho-skeptic socialist left attack strawmen because they are afraid that they will lose the debate if they argue on the basis of what we really believe. All straw men are created equalhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620552009-11-13T11:47:21+00:00Concerned socialistThe Nazis were, in pedantic terms, entirely entitled to describe themselves as s...The Nazis were, in pedantic terms, entirely entitled to describe themselves as socialist, if we examine merely their actions in very limited spheres as opposed to their philosophy. Ditto the Stalinists. However, they both violated the fundamental principles of socialism (equality before the law, common ownership, democratic planning etc) <br />
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By contrast, the goals of the libertarian right and the libertarian left are identical; the "freedom" (meaningless word which has no place in political discourse) of the individual, which must also and necessarily encompass the freedom to be oppressed by mutual agreement.<br />
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I think it's telling of the smugness of some anarchists (by no means all or most) that they subscribe to Chomsky's simplistic view that people are feeble-minded and brainwashed from an early age, hence their failure to overthrow the power structures which do them harm. The correct analysis is that people are only too aware of the corruption of social and democratic structures, and intelligent enough to recognise that the task of overthrowing them is one society is specifically structured to frustrate, as well as one which is generally incompatible with that of scraping a living.breakfasthttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620582009-11-13T12:08:08+00:00pat ckbranno asks: "What did Chomsky have for breakfast? "
Whisky? I suggest this be...kbranno asks: "What did Chomsky have for breakfast? "<br />
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Whisky? I suggest this because in 2006 when Chomsky was over the WSM arranged a meeting of approx 80 people with him in the Teachers Club. Chomsky was given a bottle of whiskey by the WSM on that occasion.<br />
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Perhaps this time he got another bottle and poured it on hid muesli. Just hazarding a guess.Sigh...http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620642009-11-13T13:18:16+00:00JamesConcerned socialist: The Nazis were, in pedantic terms, entirely entitled to des...Concerned socialist: <em>The Nazis were, in pedantic terms, entirely entitled to describe themselves as socialist, if we examine merely their actions in very limited spheres as opposed to their philosophy. Ditto the Stalinists. However, they both violated the fundamental principles of socialism (equality before the law, common ownership, democratic planning etc) </em><br />
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And since the violated the <strong>fundamental principles</strong> of socialism, the logical conclusion is that they weren’t socialists. Pretty simple really.<br />
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Concerned socialist: <em>By contrast, the goals of the libertarian right and the libertarian left are identical; </em><br />
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Except, of course, they’re not. Anarchists support the creation of workers government to replace the state. The so-called right libertarians most emphatically do not support this. <br />
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Concerned socialist:<em>I think it's telling of the smugness of some anarchists (by no means all or most) that they subscribe to Chomsky's simplistic view that people are feeble-minded and brainwashed from an early age, hence their failure to overthrow the power structures which do them harm.</em><br />
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Except, of course, that Chomsky does not claim that people are feeble minded. He argues that people are capable of developing critical thought and, indeed of running society; he advocates, after all, precisely that.<br />
Working Classhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620722009-11-13T20:15:07+00:00pat cSome people are getting prolier than thou here. So I think this is an ideal oppo...Some people are getting prolier than thou here. So I think this is an ideal opportunity to introduce an article by Mark Fischer of the CPGB, its about a talk he gave at Eton College.<br />
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<strong>Culture fit for a ruling class</strong><br />
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<em>I was told by members of the George Orwell Politics Society in Eton college that they had read some criticism on the web of the last Marxist who came to speak to them. Alan Woods of Socialist Appeal was apparently taken to task by some left lard-heads for ‘consorting with the enemy’ after he spoke to these scions of the British establishment.<br />
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Indeed, I have had some Trot friends and acquaintances come over a little sniffy when I have mentioned that on October 13 - at the invitation of the aforementioned society - I spoke to a packed house in Eton college on the subject of ‘Why you should be a Marxist’.<br />
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I will not go into the details of what I actually said - other than the fact that I assured the audience that the whole point of Marxists’ identification with the working class was its universalism. We are not out for petty class revenge on members of the present-day ruling elite, still less their children. The Marxist project was one for general human liberation - including, I assured him, for the likes of Lord William Waldegrave of North Hill (former army major, government minister under Margaret Thatcher and now provost of Eton), who sat in the front row and whom I spotted once or twice smiling and nodding at something I had said. Disconcertingly.</em><br />
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Full text of article at:'Concerned Socialist'http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620732009-11-13T20:29:42+00:00BlacblocAnarchism, aside from being a rather jejune, adolescent creed, shares with liber...<em>Anarchism, aside from being a rather jejune, adolescent creed, shares with liberalism and neoliberalism a preoccupation with the supremacy of the individual. As such, the step from anarchism to Ayn Rand is a small one. Significantly, there are no analogues in socialism for anarcho-capitalism or right-wing libertarianism. The concepts are simply incompatible. That tells you a lot about anarchism.</em><br />
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Beg to differ. All it really tells us is what your interpretation is - it's not accurate about anarchism imo at all. There is a need to reconcile freedom of the individual with collective social responsibility. A lot of socialist theory, rather naively, fails to do that. State capitalism and right wing socialismhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2620862009-11-14T15:13:49+00:00Concerned anarchist"Significantly, there are no analogues in socialism for anarcho-capitalism or ri..."Significantly, there are no analogues in socialism for anarcho-capitalism or right-wing libertarianism."<br />
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Except for maybe the state-capitalism of the 'socialist' USSR or perhaps the right wing members of a many a self titled "socialist party" around Europe?<br />
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Use your head ffs.Anarchist sectarian onslaughthttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2621042009-11-15T01:37:57+00:00Still concerned, still socialist"State capitalism" is a perversion of socialism in both concept and execution. R..."State capitalism" is a perversion of socialism in both concept and execution. Right-wing libertarianism is one valid logical endpoint of libertarian individualism. Until the libertarian "left" can reconcile the fact that nothing in their philosophy prevents people from entering into voluntary exploitative contracts it will be difficult to take them seriously. I'm amused that the most ardent purveyors of (occasionally valid) criticisms of vanguardism are invariably those who transparently see themselves as the anointed ones, with their condescending attitude towards the rest of the left and the working class. It does no harm to leave Belfield occasionally.Mrhttp://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2621092009-11-15T12:20:28+00:00NiallChomsky is an anarchist?
Er, doesn't he draw a salary from an ivy league univer...Chomsky is an anarchist?<br />
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Er, doesn't he draw a salary from an ivy league university in the United States of the Empire?!?<br />
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His response to 9/11 being the work of the Mossad? "Who cares!"jaysus....http://www.indymedia.ie/article/94716#comment2622452009-11-18T14:22:37+00:00Pepe"Chomsky is an anarchist?
Er, doesn't he draw a salary from an ivy league unive..."Chomsky is an anarchist?<br />
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Er, doesn't he draw a salary from an ivy league university in the United States of the Empire?!?"<br />
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So an anarchist cannot claim to be so because they work in a US university? This is the most foolish claim I've ever heard. So, you can't be an anarchist if you earn a wage, if you work for the State, if you work for a boss? anarchists can only live in alleys and eat from the litter bin? Or perhaps they should all retreat to live naked in a remote region? Those who work for the class enemy and yet, want to look for a collective end to this situation (as oppposed to an individualistic one) are those who gave birth to the anarchist movement.<br />
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Anarchism is not for saints living in the mountain removed from society. Actually, if there was a chance for the anarchists to live away from capitalism in their own communities, there would be little point in arguing for the revolution.<br />
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That said it is true that there are lot of so called anarchists around that are nothing but liberals (particularly visible on the web). But so there are lots of socialist and Marxist liberals... starting by the socialdemocrats and eurocommunists... this is not intended as a sectarian criticism, but in order to put the record straight. <br />
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ps. it is great to see the WSM opinions on the IPSC and the Palestinian solidarity work in Ireland. It would be great to see some input of them in the BDS campaign or in the solidarity work we do. People would really appreciate that.