Abolition of Meat: Closing communiqué for the May 2011 WWAM

by Getting the best for animals Fri Jun 17, 2011 23:25

No country on earth has banned meat, or the raising and kiling of animals for meat. That's the reality, and I say that as someone who doesn't eat meat.

I think we need to focus on making life easier for animals, and minimising their suffering. Eventually meat will be abandoned by humanity I believe, but not for a very long time yet.

Let's concentrate on ending the really cruel stuff like coursing, foxhunting, vivisection, factory/intensive farming etc.

This isn't a cop out, just reality.

Remember that scene in Schindlers List where Oscar asked the Nazis to let him use hoses to spray water into the wagons taking the consignment of Jews to Auschwitz?

OK, he wanted no killing or persuction of Jews.....but relieving their thirst was about as much as he could achieve right then.

Not the best analogy I admit but maybe worth a thought. I believe the animal welfare v animal rights divide is not helping. I'd prefer an animal that is being raised for slaughter (that awful word) to at least not be bloody tortured or terrororized before the killing moment....than no effort at all to relieve the animals' sad plight.

by John Wed Jun 22, 2011 00:14

If we all stopped eating meat tomorrow what happens to all the domesticated cows, sheep etc that we have made reliant upon us for their survival and that we will not be able to spare the grazing for as we will need the land to grow our plant based diet? Would we have to cull them or sterilize them or what? It seems to me this concept needs a bit more thinking through.

by Damien M - PW Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:31

@Getting the best for animals, excellent analogy, couldn't have put it better myself. I foresee a time when all meat eating will be eschewed however, until then it will continue to be eaten. Animal lovers and realists like myself will continue to work for improvements in farming conditions and animal rights. The Weston Price Foundation do sterling work for farmed animals.

by Help from the Wolf in Sheeps clothing Fri Jun 24, 2011 16:00

Weston Price Foundation? Aren't they sponsered by various dairy and meat industries. They'll hardly do much for animals. It'll hurt their pockets too much. Incidently the Weston Price Foundation have little to do with Dr. Weston A. Price who died in 1948. The Foundation appear to be using his name in vain.

by Become Vegan Fri Jun 24, 2011 16:16

Damien M - PW, what do you think will happen to the animals if meat isn't banned?

If it was banned (which is unlikely for the forseeable future at least), then there is no need to breed more animals. Demand is banned so no supply (at least no legal supply).

So in the circumstances envisaged the problem becomes what to do with the animals who are alive now and who would have been killed for their meat only a law has banned this.
The worst case scenario is that there will be a one time killing of all of these animals. Just like now (except with the phrase "one time" replaced with "continuous")
But with so many brains out there I'm sure we can improve on a worst case scenario.

Another way to affect the supply - demand relationship is to become vegan. It'll avoid another thread like this on milk and eggs.
The hens who lay the eggs and the cows and goats who are milked are killed also when they lose their "usefulness" which is pretty early in life.

by Damien - PW Fri Jun 24, 2011 21:00

"Weston Price Foundation? Aren't they sponsored by various dairy and meat industries."

There is only one of each, industry that is. Not sure what you mean here.

"They'll hardly do much for animals. It'll hurt their pockets too much."

In fact they are probably, after animal rights activists anyway, the staunchest opponents of cruel factory farming practices. Again, regarding their 'pockets', they're not really aligned to the huge agglomerates that run factory farming and feedlots in America. The principles of the WAPF stand in stark contrast to those of Monsanto, Syngenta, Cargill, Archer Daniels Midland, Tyson foods etc. They are the polar opposite.
Here are excerpts from the WAPF website...
"Obviously, the first line of defense is to avoid these toxins as much as possible. That means choosing whole, unprocessed, organic or pasture-fed food....adequate vitamin A is key to surviving in the modern world. That translates into plenty of butterfat, eggs and organ meats from grass-fed animals (1)".

Notive the grass and pasture bits. This means the animals must be fed grass their whole life not just fattened in a feedlot, then fed grass for a week before 'going home'. If I was a cow in America I know which life I'd prefer.

(1) http://www.westonaprice.org/environmental-toxins

by Damien - PW Fri Jun 24, 2011 21:00

"The hens who lay the eggs and the cows and goats who are milked are killed also when they lose their "usefulness" which is pretty early in life."

Not always. Certainly in factory or intensively farmed animal's situations, yes this is too often the case. But when reared by farmers who care about the animals, this is not the case. I know the old guy that I buy my free-range organic eggs off is extremely reluctant to eat his hens, and has some fairly old birds running around his back garden. He even has 3 cocks in the flock, and they don't fight.

When someone develops a Vitamin B12 molecule replicable and bioavailable to that found in meat, then I'll happily turn vegetarian.

by Become Vegan Sat Jun 25, 2011 03:56

Extremely ruluctant to eat his hens? That sounds like the farmer you're talking about kills and eats them all the same.

I think we may have a different definition of "care".

The hens (and males who can't lay) and the cows (and their offsping who have that habit of drinking milk) used for their milk and eggs are killed. Some may survive to die of natural causes. The majority bordering on the total do not. And that includes free range organic farms (Whichever definition of this is used). For the ones who do live to old age, they will still undergo the same processes that paying for their way to the farmer entails. Giving up meat, eggs and milk saves the animals from those farmers who don't care and from those who do care.

Vitamin B12 supplements are readily available to buy and not sourced from animals.
See: http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nutrition/b12.aspx

by Help from the Wolf in Sheeps clothing Mon Jun 27, 2011 00:16

Hi Damien M – PW,

Sorry, I wrote my question too fast I'm afraid. Try it this way: Aren't the Weston Price Foundation sponsored by the dairy and meat industries?

The answer is yes btw.

The Weston Price Foundation won't come second after animal rights activists as the staunchest opponents of cruel factory farming practices. They won’t come anywhere close.

The Weston Price Foundation believes it's healthier to eat meat from a cow fed on grass than a cow not fed on grass but this says nothing about cruelty to animals.

Their principles are certainly not polar opposites of the Monsanto’s in this world. Cargill and those mentioned don’t have a have a cartel on cruelty. Cruelty exists where cruelty exists whether the Weston Price Foundation's sponsors like to hear it or not.

The Weston Price Foundation is interested in killing and eating animals in a diet similar to the Atkins diet. They harm animals.

by Damien M - PW Mon Jun 27, 2011 23:47

"Aren't the Weston Price Foundation sponsored by the dairy and meat industries?
The answer is yes btw."

No it's not. The answer is a clear and resounding no. They are the antithesis of the 'dairy and meat industry', whether you like it or not.
How something espoused as local can indicate 'industry' is a mystery. Nothing on the WAPF website alludes to anything of the sort- in fact all I see is local local local!!!
"Local chapters help you find locally-grown organic and biodynamic vegetables, fruits and grains; and milk products, butter, eggs, chicken and meat from pasture-fed animals. They also represent the Weston A Price Foundation at local fairs and conferences and may host cooking classes, potluck dinners and other activities to help you learn to integrate properly prepared whole foods into your lifestyle...Local chapters may be able to put you in touch with health practitioners who share our philosophy and goals."

It even warns against big business! 'IMPORTANT WARNING: This chapter list is not for use by vendors and marketers. If you use the chapter email addresses to promote a product, we will not allow your company to advertise in Wise Traditions or exhibit at our conference.'

"The Weston Price Foundation believes it's healthier to eat meat from a cow fed on grass than a cow not fed on grass".

Correct. It is. Higher CLA, Omega 3 content, minerals etc. Cows are ruminants, and have a digestive system unique to them in that they can digest grass. Give a cow grain and it's not good for the cow, it will suffer extreme pain. This is unacceptable for the cow to endure throughout its life.

"They harm animals."
Lets not discuss its last few seconds though. They ensured the cow had a pretty decent life and got plenty of sunshine and rich, lush grass. ;-)

http://www.westonaprice.org/find-a-local-chapter

by SavedByFerrets Thu Jun 30, 2011 04:46

Damien, there is B12 in broccoli. Eat lots of that and you'll be fine.
No excuses left now!! ;-)

As a campaigner against big pharma, by becoming a vegetarian/vegan you are in a better position to criticize animal testing such as the horrible LD50 test and others systematically used by big pharma.

By the way, if the nazis had been nice to the jews then killed them quickly, would that have been ok? In that instance, would we be wrong to dwell on the last few seconds of their lives?? Hmmm.....

Daily mass animal slaughter for food is a hidden holocaust which will one day be seen for the horror it is.
However clearly human ethics are still at rather a primitive point in their evolution.
Everybody becoming vegan would go a very long way to sorting out many problems including global warming!!
(think of all those millions of mcdonalds cows farting methane at a great rate 24/7 and the rainforest trees cut down to make land for them)
It would also get rid of some very nasty large corporations who do not have our best interests at heart.

meanwhile, you may find the comments and links on this thread quite interesting:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82744

by Help from the Wolf in Sheeps clothing Thu Jun 30, 2011 17:25

Damien M – PW,

Industry is industry regardless of where that industry is located in relation to each of us. The Weston Price Foundation is not the antithesis of the meat and dairy industry.
Weston Price Foundation’s theories are dependent on the dairy and meat industries. Without these industries their theories are not possible. They rely on meals high in dairy, eggs and meat.

They are also sponsered by these industries. Even your own quote mentions “advertise” and “exhibit at our conference” in relation to these companies. It only warns that the Weston Price Foundation email lists are not for companies to advertise with. This says nothing about what Weston Price Foundation use these lists for. Or what other means the companies have of advertising with Weston Price Foundation.

Whether it is or isn’t better for humans to eat meat from a cow fed on grass is academic for health reasons. The Weston Price Foundation idea of a healthy diet is considered dangerous. http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/the-truth-about-t....html

The last few seconds of a cow’s life are not what I meant. Even the killing of a cow lasts longer than a few seconds. Animals can sense something is wrong. Anybody who’s ever seen an animal killed in an abattoir can see the animals are stressed. They aren’t willingly going to a place where the smell of blood still hangs. They’ll be beaten or coaxed by other hurtful methods.
But it’s not even the day of the killing I referred to. There are many processes in the life of a bovine reared for meat or dairy which causes them harm. The postcard version of the lush fields may play a part but it hides a lot.
A group who depends on the dairy and meat industry is not the friend of any animal

by Damien - PW Mon Jul 04, 2011 21:46

"Damien, there is B12 in broccoli. Eat lots of that and you'll be fine.
No excuses left now!! ;-) "
Quite a flippant statement-got any evidence to back that up?

"As a campaigner against big pharma, by becoming a vegetarian/vegan you are in a better position to criticize animal testing such as the horrible LD50 test and others systematically used by big pharma."

How so? This is subjective- I'd rather expose Big Pharma for the frauds they are, and how clinical trials both on human and 'non-human' subjects are riddled with bad science and error not to mention more medical fraud than you could believe. That animals are killed horrifically and needlessly is morally repugnant whether they happen to be rats, primates or cockroaches. I criticise animal testing primarily because it is a sick joke and doesn't work, this is not to say it doesn't turn my stomach, it does. As regards justifying protesting against animal tests- I find it is better to educate people that animal testing is based on fraud, point out drugs such as Thalidomide, Vioxx (100,000+ deaths), Phenfluoramine etc all passed animal tests. If you stand shouting at people about animal testing all you'll hear back is "ah shure we need to find cures for the diseases to be shure".

"It would also get rid of some very nasty large corporations who do not have our best interests at heart."

Exactly what the WAPF is working towards, and something I donate a fair chunk of my time to.

"Daily mass animal slaughter for food is a hidden holocaust which will one day be seen for the horror it is.However clearly human ethics are still at rather a primitive point in their evolution."
Very true and true again. Btw I hold the same views as the guys at the WAPF on McShit!!!

by SBF Tue Jul 05, 2011 22:32

Yeah it was pretty flippant. I'm actually wrong about the broccoli / b12 thing. sorry. there's actually not very much if any in it.
But you can definitely get B12 from free range eggs and nutritional yeast products. Not acceptable to vegans but close enough to allow one to exit from a factory farm supporting diet. Supplements are easily obtainable. 2000micrograms taken once a week in a tablet is ok. (microbial in origin)
http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nutrition/b12.aspx
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm
http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/focus/nutrition/facts/vitami...n.htm

Anyway, fair enough damien. As past conversations have shown, we are mostly on the same side on these issues. I just think the direct eating of animal flesh and the large scale factory farming this unnecessary practice ultimately gives birth to is morally repugnant and hard to stomach. Not to mention the continual low level use of antibiotics and potential for epidemics/pandemics and environmental destruction this for profit cynical corporate approach to animal husbandry often entails. Many of these issues are interconnected.

I would have thought an ethical person like yourself would not be able to partake in this chain of events either. However as I always say, a partial effort is still always better than no effort at all.

And whatever way we can all successfully assist in sinking the amoral corporations behind large scale human and animal suffering, be it big pharma fake testing or factory farming, I'll happily support such efforts.

keep up the good fight

in solidarity!
-sbf

by Damien M - PW Wed Jul 06, 2011 21:21

This cow has ample green grass and not a feedlot in sight!

is a happy cow...

by SBF Wed Jul 06, 2011 21:35

This stuff is much tastier, has less enviromental impact and leaves you with less deep seated moral guilt afterwards

http://www.frysvegetarian.co.za/

Your conscience would feel so much better eating this too Damien. Why perpetuate unnecessary killing?

It's very tasty too!! ;-)

by Damien M - PW Wed Jul 06, 2011 22:14

You read the ingredient list? Of course it's tasty- it's full of flavour enhancers such as hydrolysed vegetable protein which is another name crafty food manufacturers like Mr Fry use to disguise MSG. Oh, and it's also got soy! Not good.

by SBF Thu Jul 07, 2011 01:24

IMHO eating this stuff is a small price to pay to avoid complicity in the unnecessary silent grisly mass holocaust of millions of beings every day.
I've eaten these substitutes my whole life and am healthy and active both mentally and physically. I cite myself as evidence that such a diet is perfectly ok.

Soy is not necessarily bad. GM free organically grown soy is ok. Like they do with everything else, large corporations fuck it up if they do it on a huge scale purely to make the largest possible profits

And growing soy for protein is a far more efficient use of land than breeding cows for meat.

And indeed it's better for the long term survival of humanity as well! :
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20....html

Damien, you are just making excuses because you like the taste of meat. Thats the real reason people continue to eat meat in the face of all the strong ethical, logical and environmental arguments against this abhorrent practice.