On 100th birth anniversary of President Kim Il Sung

by fred Tue Jan 14, 2014 18:22

Murderous relativities exist around the world, in states governed by different political systems. The murderous policies of one or many don't morally exculpate the murderous deeds of another in a different region. Get political morality balanced and impartial from the start, without tinted glasses. Absence of balanced perspective can result in pointless rancour of discussion.

Yeah, granted one bad deed does not exculpate another, but my gripe is that the only countries focussed on and put under the greatest scrutiny by the MSM (and internet shills like the previous poster) tend to be the "axis of evil" while others such as US and Saudi Arabia, who do lots of equally bad stuff too, largely get a free pass. I want proportional coverage of both US atrocities and our "allies" atrocities to match our current media distorted coverage of "axis of evil" countries. Now THAT would be a real balanced perspective.

What i don't get is that if this were a hommage to obama or clinton or nixon or reagen - it would be quickly taken down..
Why isn't the same treatment doled out when a hommage to President Kim Il Sung is up on this site,why isnt it taken down?

This was not taken down and I doubt a clinton homage would be taken down either. Because both articles present a good opportunity for commenters like myself to outline some facts about the relevant country and highlight the clear bias exhibited by the media towards "axis of evil" states (i.e. states that don't play ball with US financial institutions, corporations, and the US military / spying apparatus )

That is probably the whole point of independent media. To allow viewpoints and information that would not be tolerated in the captive MSM to emerge.

Pity those "pro democracy" forces you represent feel so threatened by this possibility that they have to send an army of paid trolls to derail any alternative opinions, even on the most obscure websites. Couldn't have the truth getting out could we?

What i don't trust about leftists/socialists is the fact that anything or anybody that fits in with their ideaology gets off the hook even when they murder people in a horrific way..
Thats what scares me about leftists in general,they seem to think even a psycopathic muderer is okay as long as it fits in with their ideology..

Yeah. You say that it is wrong to treat clinton / reagan /obama differently. But in fact your whole approach is all about treating the likes of Obama / clinton / reagan (and the Saudis / Israelis / Bahrainis / US supported terrorists in Syria ) differently.

We are supposed to focus on and scrutinise "axis of evil" states to the nth degree and condemn their every smallest action, whilst ignoring millions of people being killed by the "good guys". What blatant hypocrisy!! The irony is you don't even seem to see how well your statement above applies much more to your own position than to mine.

And exactly where did I say execution of any kind was ok?
if you actually bothered to read my posts you would see that I said "it was horrible" and that "NO government should have the power to execute people "

My point is that our media serves imperialism and blithely ignores western countries committing similar or worse atrocities and war crimes, and meanwhile they totally ignore the context from which "axis of evil" countries emerge.

You are asking me to demonise selected "axis of evil" states whilst ignoring the numerically far worse atrocities committed by the "allies" and their "friends". That's just propaganda talk.

by not impressed Tue Jan 14, 2014 15:55

What i don't get is that if this were a hommage to obama or clinton or nixon or reagen - it would be quickly taken down..

Why isn't the same treatment doled out when a hommage to President Kim Il Sung is up on this site,why isnt it taken down?

There are serious double standards here.

What i don't trust about leftists/socialists is the fact that anything or anybody that fits in with their ideaology gets off the hook even when they murder people in a horrific way..

Thats what scares me about leftists in general,they seem to think even a psycopathic muderer is okay as long as it fits in with their ideology..

by old observer Tue Jan 14, 2014 08:29

Murderous relativities exist around the world, in states governed by different political systems. The murderous policies of one or many don't morally exculpate the murderous deeds of another in a different region. Get political morality balanced and impartial from the start, without tinted glasses. Absence of balanced perspective can result in pointless rancour of discussion.

by fred Mon Jan 13, 2014 17:46

But at least obama wouldnt salivate watching his uncle(and other aides being stripped down) being horrifically torn to shreds by a pack of hungry dogs..

Obama has no problem blowing whole innocent wedding parties to bloody pieces with his drones though.
http://www.storyleak.com/obama-unapologetic-drone-massa...arty/
He meets every tuesday to create his "extrajudicial" drone murder list.

Jang's death, while horrible, was only one man. NK has a very low rate of execution according to amnesty. And it pales in comparison to the US in terms of it's prison population. US has the highest per capita prison population in the world.

Also, the US massacred 25-30% of the population of North Korea by carpet bombing it. I think killing millions of innocent people is far far worse than making a political example of one single man. Not a peep out of you about that though.

You see there you go again defending north korea because it fits nicely in with your ideaology regardless of how they treat their people.

Not defending. Just putting your propaganda posts into some context.

You say and take at face value that there were only six people put to death via execution,would you swallow those lies from a place that has buried many secrets?

Amnesty's figures. And since the state department is embedded in the top echelons of Amnesty, I wouldn't expect them to go soft on anyone in the "axis of evil"

You know north korea shoots at people who desperately try to cross the border?
Can you accept anything they say as truth when they can so easily do such horrible things?

When is the last time that actually happened?? Some facts please.

I get no truth from western governments either. They blatantly lie about what they get up to all the time.

NK, like most countries, has it's issues, but it is not the country we should be focussed on. They are just another victim of imperialism and a target of western propaganda. Wake up.

by not impressed Mon Jan 13, 2014 17:07

Kim jong un is FAR from some innnocent....

But at least obama wouldnt salivate watching his uncle(and other aides being stripped down) being horrifically torn to shreds by a pack of hungry dogs..

You see there you go again defending north korea because it fits nicely in with your ideaology regardless of how they treat their people.

You say and take at face value that there were only six people put to death via execution,would you swallow those lies from a place that has buried many secrets?

You know north korea shoots at people who desperately try to cross the border?

Can you accept anything they say as truth when they can so easily do such horrible things?

by fred Mon Jan 13, 2014 01:00

Kim Jong un is no innocent but neither is any other current world leader. So why single him out?

But that's what you types always do. Selective amnesia is the disease of the right

by tommy Sun Jan 12, 2014 21:43

I dont watch fox news..

I live in the real world , not some leftist totalitarian wet dream fantasy world where kim jong un is some innnocent guy who is just convieniently being smeared by every journo all over the planet..

Like 9/11 its a big cover up - its a propoganda machine LOL..

Fruitcake..

by fred Sun Jan 12, 2014 19:36

the only reason you are defending the likes of kim jong un is because it fits with your ideology,which is scary to say the least.

Not defending anyone. Execution is wrong IMHO. No government should be given that power. None can be trusted with it.

I was merely attempting to put your predictable propaganda posts about DPRK into some context by showing how selectively useful idiots parroting propaganda stories like yourself, or the captive western media portray the facts about execution. Especially when it comes to "US friendly" countries vs the "axis of evil" (i.e. don't play ball with US geopolitical interests)

You have no idea what my ideology is so please don't make assumptions.

I feel rather sorry for you if you find someone attempting to put your propaganda into context frightening.

Might I suggest you tune back into fox news to relax you.

Personally I find anonymous internet bots deliberately propagating mistruths / half truths / lies on left leaning websites a lot more scary as you just never know if it's a paid shill or just some gullible fool regurgitating verbatim what crap he has been fed by a captive western media. Makes one feel one is not allowed to hold opinions other than those sanctioned by power. Thought police. Very frightening.

I guess we don't want anyone even daring to have thoughts about alternative systems of social organisation that are not exploitative and all about greed and every rat for himself, and the systematic destruction of the environment to temporarily enrich a very few.

If capitalism was really so great, it would not feel the constant need to crush all other dissenting alternatives in the world under a mountain of propaganda, even on the most obscure websites, to prevent any possibility of any "good example" emerging and giving ideas to the serfs and the livestock.

by not impressed Sun Jan 12, 2014 16:14

Executions aren't pretty anywhere. The dogs were probably relatively quick compared to some botched US executions. See below.

Have you ever watched an execution by hungry dogs?Have you ever been mauled half to death by a dog,nevermind 120 starved dogs fit for purpose of annialating a human being?

Until you have done so i would suggest you reserve judgement on what is humane and what is not,the only reason you are defending the likes of kim jong un is because it fits with your ideology,which is scary to say the least.

As long as one fits your ideaology it doesnt matter what way these people are killed.

And in reference to digging up a few old US execution cases..Moral relativism much??

by fred Sun Jan 12, 2014 15:46

I think you can also have the "hungry dogs in your face" treatment in US "forever" prisons like Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib. In fact there are a few photos knocking around on the net too.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/de...cture

This diagram is from Amnesty figures for 2012. It shows that the US executed 7 times as many people as North Korea in 2012.

Iraq, Saudi Arabia and all the usual corrupt vassal states of the US racked up quite a pile of corpses too.

Executions aren't pretty anywhere. The dogs were probably relatively quick compared to some botched US executions. See below.

And of course, no surprise propagandists are focussing on the brutality of a single instance of execution and not the general statistics, which they tend to gloss over because there were only 6 executions in the whole of 2012 in North Korea according to Amnesty figures, compared to 43 in the US in the same time period.

Of course brutal allies such as Saudi Arabia, murdering and torturing all around them get a free pass as usual. It seems to be a pattern that colonies / ex colonies seem to have high rates. Must be all that Democracy that colonists bring with them.

Western corporate pollution / manufacturing / cheap labour outsourcing hub, China, also carries out a lot of executions.

Now, execution fans, enjoy some tales of botched "democratic" US executions. Think I'd prefer the dogs!

"Screams, Flames Among Horrors of Botched US Executions"
https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/10/19

WASHINGTON — US executions are meant to be clinical and humane, but for some they end up resembling medieval torture, complete with the smell of burning flesh, screams, and scenes so gruesome that witnesses faint.

Signs against the death penalty are seen in front of the Supreme Court in Washington DC in 2008. (AFP image) "We put animals to death more humanely," reporter Carla McClain said of a 1992 execution she witnessed, in which Donald Eugene Harding writhed and thrashed in an Arizona gas chamber for over 10 minutes before dying.

Last month, Romell Brown became only the second man to leave a US execution chamber alive, after 18 failed attempts to administer the lethal injection.

Authorities in Ohio decided to halt his execution after officials spent two hours trying to inject him with lethal chemicals.

Many of those executed in the United States in the last 25 years were not so lucky, suffering through executions in which flesh caught on fire, blood saturated shirts, and witnesses watched and listened as the condemned convulsed and screamed with pain.

In 1999, Florida Supreme Court Justice Leander Shaw reacted with horror to pictures of Allen Lee Davis, who was put to death by electric chair.

"The color photos of Davis depict a man who -- for all appearances -- was brutally tortured to death by the citizens of Florida," Shaw wrote.

Davis had been strapped into an electric chair especially designed to fit his 350-pound frame. As he was electrocuted, but before he was pronounced dead, blood poured from his mouth, soaking his white shirt and oozing through the buckle holes of the strap holding him down.

Michael Radelet, a professor at the University of Colorado, worked with the Death Penalty Information Center to collect testimony on more than 40 botched instances from the witnesses required to be present at executions.

Horror stories have emerged about all the execution methods commonly used in the United States, including the electric chair, lethal injection and gas chamber, with most of the disasters due to human error.

In 1983 in Alabama, a first jolt of electricity caused the electrode attached to John Evans' leg to catch fire. Smoke and sparks also came from under the hood placed over his head, near where an electrode was strapped to his left temple.

A second jolt was administered, but despite the smoke and smell of burning flesh, doctors discovered Evans' heart was still beating and applied a third jolt that finally killed him after 14 minutes.

Two years later, in Indiana, William Vandiver received five separate jolts of electricity over the course of 17 minutes before his heart stopped.

Jesse Joseph Tafero was sentenced to death by electric chair in Florida in 1990, but a synthetic sponge that was used during his execution caught fire, causing six-inch flames to erupt from his head.

Sentenced to death by gas chamber in Mississippi in 1983, Jimmy Lee Gray had the misfortune to be put to death by an executioner who later admitted he was drunk. Gray's gasps and moans so horrified observers that the witness room was cleared by officials.

In recent years, several lawsuits have challenged the lethal injection as "cruel," but it continues to be used by most US states practicing the death penalty and the Supreme Court upheld its constitutionality in 2008.

But for Bennie Demps, who spent 33 minutes of agony as execution technicians tried to find a back-up vein that could support an alternate intravenous drip in case the first one failed, the pain was excruciating.

"They butchered me back there. I was in a lot of pain. They cut me in the groin, they cut me in the leg. I was bleeding profusely. This is not an execution, it is murder," he said in his final statement.

In Angel Diaz's case, in Florida in 2006, a single dose of the lethal cocktails that anesthetize, paralyze and then stop the recipient's heart was not enough. The first injection went through his vein and out the other side, dispersing the chemicals into his muscles, forcing a second dose to be given.

At times, the scenes have been gruesome enough to physically affect observers. In 1989, in Texas, which holds the record for the most US executions, a male witness fainted after watching Stephen McCoy's violent writhing.

Some of the most recent horror stories come from Ohio, where Broom's execution was halted.

"It don't work! It don't work," yelled a sobbing Joseph Clark in May 2006, as the vein that executioners had worked 22 minutes to find collapsed while the chemicals were being administered.

A year later, Ohio authorities took two hours to successfully find veins and administer Christopher Newton the lethal injection. The process took so long, he was authorized to take a bathroom break.

The only other person to have survived execution in the United States was young black man named Willie Francis who survived a Louisiana electric chair in the 1940s. He was later put to death on a second attempt.

by kim Sun Jan 12, 2014 14:16

Heres the link: http://www.channel4.com/news/kim-jong-un-jang-song-thae...china

The North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un had his uncle torn apart by hungry dogs after deciding to execute him for treason, a report from China claims.
Kim Jong-un called his uncle a dog when he denounced him for treason in December, and according to a horrific report from China, Kim used dogs to execute him too.

Political opponents in North Korea are normally executed by firing squad, but Kim killed Jang Song Thaek in a much more barbaric way, claims a paper close to the Chinese government.

Kim had his 67-year-old uncle and former deputy leader stripped naked and placed in a cage with five of his aides. Some 120 dogs, which had been starved for three days, were put in with them and the six were torn to pieces over the course of an hour. It is known as "quan jue", or execution by dog, said the Straits Times.

The report also alleges that Kim watched the execution with 300 aides until the six "were completely eaten up".

Jang Song Thaek was Kim's uncle as well as his second-in-command and had served as a mentor to young leader in the year after he took control of the country in 2011.

In December, Jang was pulled out of a government meeting and days later convicted of treason. "Jang and his followers committed criminal acts baffling imagination," said the North Korean national media KCNA.

Jang had served as a diplomat to China and it is noted in the Straits Times that several of his listed offences included trade deals with China that were favourable to the Chinese.
Chinese anger

The barbarity of the story and the sourcing to a paper known as a mouthpiece of the Chinese government – the Straits Times cites Wen Wei Po as the source - suggest that the mood at the top of China has turned against Mr Kim's government.

The reportage from Wen Wei Po includes a litany of complaints against Kim and North Korea.

Thaek was close to China and had been vital part of Chinese strategy to open North Korea’s economy and bring stability to the region. His sudden removal from power took out a key Chinese influence on the North Korean leadership.

Whatever the nature of Thaek’s execution, his removal has angered China.

Now, the Straits Time writes: "China's political and strategic influence on the Korean peninsula has been drastically reduced. China was widely considered to be able to rein in the unruly Kim regime, thus acting as a force for peace in the region. But it now appears China's influence over its neighbour is close to zero."

China is the rogue state's only international ally.

by somewhat left leaning Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:33

Some people in western left wing circles need North Korea as a motivator for more militant capacity building in their countries and areas of residence - as if Cuba and the state of Kerala in India weren't militant enough. But does North Korea need any of us? Is that cold climate country, not far from western Siberia of all cold places, looking for people from Ireland with skills? Does it want some of us to go there and help with nation building? What skills and experience does it require? Would it be easy to get Korean language lessons in Ireland? What are the radiation levels there; are they similar to readings in the vicinity of Windscale? Where is the nearest North Korean embassy to Dublin and Belfast? Some of us relishing work in an exotic place could at least make enquiries. But I don't know if we are wanted.

by fred Sun Jan 05, 2014 21:48

So fred .. Have you ever lived under socialist commie leftist rule,like old soviet russia,or even poland in its early days or north korea.
Musicians in poland had to flee for their lives to saftety to countries like britain and ireland and elsewhere and if caught could end up locked up as political prisoners,often they were abused etc.

You cannot compare the cold war days with today. The world was paranoid and under threat of nuclear annihilation at any moment. There was paranoia under mccarthy and others later on in the US too. Many people were blacklisted, persecuted and "disappeared" too. Suspected "Commie sympathisers" could not get work anywhere. Not a whole lot different.

The cold war is over now, although the US remains unofficially at war with Cuba and DPRK and totally blockades these countries economically making life very hard for those living there, and forcing them into a siege mentality. Then the state they are forced into is used as the reason why people should not want to live there. It's a circular argument and total propaganda.

Cuba and DPRK would be much better places to live if all the spiteful US economic sanctions were lifted. If anyone has a gripe it should be the DPRK since the americans slaughtered 25-30% of their population by carpet bombing their cities.

Political policing happens everywhere today under capitalism too.
Peaceful Protesters in Ireland end up in prison on trumped up political charges too:
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101343
So did occupy wall street protesters in the US too.
No tolerance for an "american spring" there!!
Rossport protesters were routinely abused by garda. Here's what happened to a peaceful student fees protester in dublin: http://www.indymedia.ie/article/98070

Many russians pine for the old days instead of capitalist uncertainty. That was then this is now. I'd rather a guarantee of food and a roof over the head of everyone, free education and medical care than what we have now. i.e. great wealth for the 1%, and uncertainty over very basic needs for the rest of the "livestock"

Is this what you support,a left wing totalitarian ideology where the greater good mainly for governments favour supercedes the right to individulalism and personal human rights?
You dont see the problem in the government owning every home in the country - it would be far worse than what we have now.
No free market,no oil in the wheels,just an equal pay society but a very poor society with no spending power no nothing.

Well the state (i.e. the people collectively) would own all the houses, and they would not be selling them off from over your heads to make a buck. They would be there to provide housing for all the people of the state. ( Well that is unless you are swayed by the lies of capitalists and your economy is destroyed by capitalists threatening you with a spiralling arms race and then you let a drunken man like yeltsen in to run things and he then allows the capitalists in through the back door to rob the country while he is in a drunken stupor!)

In our great capitalist society, the rulers are totally corrupt and selling off the commons and destroying the environment.

The banks own most of the homes in the country while people waste their lives working desperately to try and pay for them. We destroy the environment to manufacture shit we don't need.

There is no community. It's every rat for himself. I think it sucks. Most sensible people are starting to realise how much it sucks too.

Is that your dream your vision?I dont claim capitalism is perfect but at least it doesnt breed any kim jong un's or stalins etc..

Yes it does. The masses are just too ill informed and brainwashed to recognise them for what they really are.

As shakespeare said "a man can smile and smile and be a villain"
Our system breeds silver tongued corporatist warhawks who smile and lie and kill.
Obama / Bush have caused the deaths of a million people in Iraq / Afghanistan

And they just love propping up corrupt dicktators and oil monarchies with no respect for human rights but who play ball with US corporations and the financial terrorists. Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and many african countries with oil / minerals etc etc

How about you go back in time and take up some time in the gulags - get an education.
Be careful what you wish for your wet dream might come true

Instead of suggesting I do stupid things like invent a time machine, How about you just take a good look around you! Capitalism has failed. The financial system is totally corrupt and out of control. It no longer serves it's intended purpose: i.e. to ultimately improve the lives of people in society. It now destroys their lives and enslaves them for profit. We need some different thinking.

It is pumping out greenhouse gases and destroying the environment at an ever increasing pace. We are burning through our once off bonanza of oil to manufacture junk which ends up in landfill or polluting the seas within 6 months. Our food system is crap. We cannot afford real proper food and corporations like monsanto and those in the military industrial complex are out of control. There is a mass extinction of species underway. We are not addressing basic problems like resource allocation and overpopulation. All the benefits of our trickle down system go to a small number while nearly everyone else struggles in minimum wage slavery if they are lucky.

We need to change our approach fast before human life becomes impossible on this planet. Something like the venus project, a resource based economy is what is needed. Capitalism will never allow this approach.

by mardi gras Sun Jan 05, 2014 20:30

So fred .. Have you ever lived under socialist commie leftist rule,like old soviet russia,or even poland in its early days or north korea.

Musicians in poland had to flee for their lives to saftety to countries like britain and ireland and elsewhere and if caught could end up locked up as political prisoners,often they were abused etc.

Is this what you support,a left wing totalitarian ideology where the greater good mainly for governments favour supercedes the right to individulalism and personal human rights?

You dont see the problem in the government owning every home in the country - it would be far worse than what we have now.

No free market,no oil in the wheels,just an equal pay society but a very poor society with no spending power no nothing.

Is that your dream your vision?I dont claim capitalism is perfect but at least it doesnt breed any kim jong un's or stalins etc..

How about you go back in time and take up some time in the gulags - get an education.

Be careful what you wish for your wet dream might come true!

by fred Sun Jan 05, 2014 18:13

I dont trust leftists for the most part,under red communism/soclialislm the government gets to own your own home,no citizen can own their own home,so what happens if you fall foul of the government.?

Yeah it's terrible.

It's so much better with the bank owning your home, you working every hour of the day to try and keep it, paying the bank up the ass for years, hardly ever seeing your family, then the bank forceclosing on you anyway.

Then being at the mercy of some greedy landlord with substandard property, with no proper tenancy rights. What happens if you fall foul of him?

Well under FG they are eviscerating rent allowance and other schemes and there are 100,000+ on the housing lists and they deliberately make all of these benefits really hard to get so your alternative to working for the bank under Irish capitalism seems to be homelessness and death on the streets.

In the DPRK, every citizen has the right to a roof over their head, food, an education and free medical care in so far as the state can supply these, given the economic state of siege the state is under.

by fred Sun Jan 05, 2014 18:03

The Irish left are a joke. They largely supported the no fly zone in Libya which led to the jihadist takeover of that country and the bloody chaos that remains there. Many also supported the invasion of Iraq. Also, the US backed Al Qaeda terrorist rebels currently undermining the government in Syria and destroying that country. The fact is, many on the Irish left are just unwitting lapdogs of imperialism and are often heard parrotting it's propaganda against states that the US have a problem with. Pussy riot, gay rights in russia, Iranian nuclear program, Rebels in Syria, Saddam hussein / gadaffi is the antichrist, etc etc. Any old shit a US infiltrated NGO or the MSM feeds them, the Irish left can be relied upon to swallow and regurgitate on cue.

Meanwhile the US and it's president must have their ass licked by many people on the left on a regular basis.

This despite regular executions in Texas and other states and despite the US having the highest per capita prison population in the entire world, (that includes russia, china and DPRK !!)

And despite extra judicial murder by drone in any country they like arranged at meetings every tuesday in the white house.

and despite the fact that the US spies on all our electronic communications worldwide, maintains hundreds of military bases in other countries all around the world, was the only country to actually use nuclear bombs on a civilian population. Twice. And it is currently pointing thousands of nuclear warheads at capital cities all over the planet on hair trigger.

Yet it is the DPRK that is the one we should demonise. Yeah right, that's logical. Sorry I'm not buying into your axis of evil propaganda bullshit.

Life in DPRK is hard, but this hardship is greatly exacerbated by the state of economic siege being constantly held against the country economically by the US and it's servile vassal states.

The country is also under constant military threat from the US and the south, forcing it to spend more on defence rather than social programs.

Despite all this, education and healthcare remain free in the DPRK despite it's hugely difficult economic circumstances.

Sure people have to go to work every day in the DPRK to provide for themselves, but we do here too (if we are lucky!!) Here it's called a "challenging career" but there it's referred to by the western media as "work camps". Personally I'd rather work for the benefit of my community than for some uncaring corporation.

DPRK has it's issues as do all countries, but these are taken and distorted and propagandised greatly by a hostile western media.

Of course they never mention how DPRK was carpet bombed by the US and 25-30% of it's population killed. This might explain why it is understandably a little paranoid about the US and it's allies intentions.

Here's an interesting article and a discussion with Eugene Puryear about DPRK and how it is demonised by the western media:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/103501

by socialism/communism Sun Jan 05, 2014 17:30

I dont trust leftists for the most part,under red communism/soclialislm the government gets to own your own home,no citizen can own their own home,so what happens if you fall foul of the government.?

by TheLeft Sun Jan 05, 2014 17:08

Why oh why oh why. This brings nothing but shame on the left. I have met with North Korean migrants in south Korea and so shame on you for this nonsense