Askatasun = Freedom! Basque activists in Dublin tell their stories...

by RK Thu Aug 19, 2004 18:26

It stinks that a forum like this should be used as an apologist network for pro-terror scum such as Batasuna, who are reviled throughout Spain for being nothing more then a gang of pro ETA scum. What sort of message does it send out to the thousands of Spanish here if extremists like this are given a soapbox. I would love to know the true ctory behind this 'centre'. While the Spanish government (GAL death squads etc) have far from clean hands in the story of the Basque province (yeah province, not country) they have also granted that part of the spanish kingdom many, many aspects of autonomy (parliament and police force to name but two very important ones.)

There is no place for batasuna in a forward looking nation like Spain. I am delighted they are banned and long may it continue. Leave this forum for legitimate and recognised bodies and leave the likes of Batasuna where they belong, in the past. Cop on to yourselves. Viva Espana.

Ps: ETA were blamed for the March 11th bombings for a reason! The people of the Spanish capital are all to used to their handiwork.

by - Thu Aug 19, 2004 19:28

It had as much to do with HB/ETA as disco disco on Parnell Square had to do with SF/IRA.

It would indeed appear odd, if a SF/IRA delegation from Dublin had gone to explain contemporary Irish politics to Bilbao and made mention of the eviciton of Disco Disco.

by C sna C Fri Aug 20, 2004 14:05

RK you Espanolista dickhead so theres "no place for batasuna in a forward looking nation like Spain." Batasuna are a political party with a democratic mandate and the ban on them was state fascism pure and simple

Forward looking my arse - so the Basques have been "granted" their own police force, how kind of Castille to recruit Basques to do their dirty work for them! The PP junta have tried every trick to crush Basque nationalism and lapdogs like you lick it up. No place for extremism eh? Ever hear of the paramilitary torturers and murderers of the Guardia Civil? Gora Espana -Puta Espana.

by VT Fri Aug 20, 2004 14:32 na at yahoo dot co dot uk

I can’t believe these people keep going all over Europe trying to make everybody believe that they are being tortured, what about the 800 people ETA have killed in the last 30 years??? What about all the victims whose lives have being ruined? Who feels sorry for them? Why are they not being exposed to the world so everybody can see what ETA and their supporters have done to my country??

I’m from Madrid and we also suffered Franco’s dictatorship, even more than in other provinces…. stop moaning and get over it, Franco has been dead 29 years!!

Of course we blamed ETA when the 11 M happened, were they not trying to do exactly the same on the 24th December 2003 when 2 booms where found in 2 different trains?

Wake up Europe, don’t let these scumbacks trick you… they are the ones who don’t respect other opinions and bring dictatorship back to our country…

by Ezetz Fri Aug 20, 2004 18:12

I am from Madrid as well. AND I AM ASHAMED OF IT. BEING FROM AN IMPERIALIST COUNTRY LIKE SPAIN (THAT FALSE CONCEPT OF "SPAIN") CAN ONLY BE REASON FOR EMBARRASSMENT.

SPAIN IS NOTHING BUT A SHAME

SHAME ON SPAIN (A EUROPEAN ISRAEL)

FAIR PLAY TO THE BRAVE BASQUE INDEPENDENTIST LEFT, ONE OF THE MOST GENUINE LEFTS IN THE CONTINENT!!! THAT'S WHAT TWO CAPITALIST IMPERIALIST COUNTRIES LIKE THE SPANISH AND FRENCH STATES FEAR, THE TRUE RESISTANCE OF THE BASQUES.

by Independent View Fri Aug 20, 2004 18:21

It really sickens me to read all of this, from what I understand i have one question

IF "Spain" is such a great country then why does Galicia, Catalonia, Basque Country, andalusia, Canary islands, Castille etc all have independence movements?

For me "Spain" is a modern day westen european "Yugoslavia". Small minorities being held together by a central power that is only interested in subverting difference and maintenance of economic power.

In Ireland people may not agree with Sinn Fein but they have a mandate from their people and what we have learned is that until we listen to everyone then nothing will change, the killing will go on, basque language and culture is so distintive and beautiful yet it is under threat and has been. I believe that all people under threat will react violently, and March 11th attacks, I have met no one Irish, Spanish or otherwise that believed it was basques, they are too moral for an attack like that. As ont person said the Spanish Govt has very dirty hands .

Let people speak and talk and let people decide for themselves

by speaking and talking Sat Aug 21, 2004 23:13

despite the Catalan economy being the first contributor to the Spanish economy, and to outsiders at least Catalan political punch in the Spanish State being above their weight, ETA declared a truce with the "Catalan lands"
on the grounds of "solidarity with a fellow nation oppressed by Madrid".

Yet ETA today in an attack on the tourism of the Spanish State targetted one of the poorest "oppressed countries" by the Spanish State i.e. Galizia?

where is the "solidarity between worker / peasant and oppressed victim of Madrid"?

by Someone Sun Aug 22, 2004 00:47

Why does the majority in poor Galizia support right wing politicians???
It is beyond me anyway.

by RS Sun Aug 22, 2004 01:40

ETA's cease-fire for Cataluña on Feb 18th, 2004, may have been designed to get some valuable political support from Catalan nationalists and left - the idea being, that the Spanish government is the real enemy.

Either way, it was greeted by a chorus of condemnation
from mainstream Spanish politics. ‘Repulsive, outrageous’ and ‘appaulling’ were some of the words used to describe this unilateral gesture. One Socialist MP from Grenada [?Astreyes], likened the partial ceasefire to ‘a bomb exploding in the middle of politics’, coming as it does, two weeks before Spain’s General Election. Such imagery might better have been used for the Government’s decision to back US war in Iraq, despite objections from 90% of Spain’s population.

The reason for right-wing votes among the poor: Capitalism offers a refuge from the very insecurities and feelings of inadequacy that its competitive ethos fuels. To most who accept capitalist doctrine, that shelter will be just around the corner, but elusive nonetheless. In advertising, we are exorted to buy into illusions of ourselves, or someone else’s version of who we should be – a consensus of dellusion. As in The Emperor’s New Clothes, many are often willing to say they are content, if only to be accepted. Religion is an older version of the same groupthink.

In the long term, individual and community interest are barely distinguishible, but in the short term, populations are gulled like lemmings, bated with the illusion that everyone can win at once in a rat-race actually based on exploitation and poverty.

The poor, lacking education, and sweetened with the smallest of promises, are often easy prey for the imense ideological aparatus of capitalist mass-media. It is no accident however, that the highest abstention rates in elections world-wide, are in poverty-stricken areas. Sinn Fein are changeing that a bit in Ireland though.

I have questions of my own. Is nationalism not an outdated concept - especially that based on territory? A movement for cultural rights and respect for ethnic diversity seem more worthy goals, especially when most who live in the Basque Country today, are settlers, and may not feel comfortable being in a state based on an identity separate to theirs;

Or else, an argument based on subsidiarity (decisions made at the lowest level possible), to include defence and 'foreigh affairs.

by Realist Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:27

Unfortunately RK's original point seems to have been proven over the weekend with two bombs in the Basque province itself, the Basque 'independence' movement is nothing but a glorified terror cell which can't claim support from a significant percentage of its population and Batasuna is nothing but an outdated party with absolutely no democratic mandate since it will never again be legitimised. Which is great news. Fair play to the Madrid government for creating this vacuum which will hopefully choke the life out of Basque extremism eventually.

Israel, Yugoslavia, Spain? Get a grip folks.

by Jo Take Mon Aug 23, 2004 14:07

Fu*k all is proved by the explosions over the weekend. Warnings were given, no fatalities, what's your suggested next response to Basque nationalism then eh?

Repression? -Done that.
Colonisation? -Done that
Torture? Done that
Murder? -Done that.
Terrorism ?-Done that
Censorship?- Done that
Demonisation? -Done that

Nothing new left in your armoury then, carry on the repression and hysteria but don't give us the outraged mock horror when it is the hypocrisy of Spanish state that has sown these dragons teeth.

BTW what exactly do you define as "significant percentage of its population"?Not c. 20% then obviously you fascist. I suppose you will try to disenfranchise the tens of thousands of Basque nationalists next eh?

"Fair play to the Madrid government for creating this vacuum which will hopefully choke the life out of Basque extremism eventually."
-Get a grip yourself you dim-witted sychophant.

by paul c Mon Aug 23, 2004 14:36

is there any map anywhere showing the basque catalan and other simialr regions in spain.. i tried to find las ttime someone put something up by catalan but its hard thing to find unless you know what your looking for

by Euskaldun bat Mon Aug 23, 2004 14:56

ETA is a David fighting an invisible Goliath no one can see, cos our eyes are the media, and the media is controlled by Goliath. Very much like the movie of the Matrix!!! The Spanish Government and Basque right wing nationalism are the true glorification of terror, with appalling and systematically applied methods of torture. Amnesty International and the United Nations keep asking the Spanish Government to stop torturing Basque deteinees and nothing is happening! How the hell do you fight that!!!
All those things that now belong to the past in Northern Ireland, like internment, dirty protests, etc, are up to date in the Spanish State!!! And no one knows about it!!!! How many people know about the closure of the only newspaper in Basque language: Egunkaria???

The Madrid government is a fascist government.

I am speaking from actual experience, I have seen all this from inside.

BOYCOTT SPANISH PRODUCTS

Replying to RS, in regards to the concept of 'nationalism', who puts the 'isms'? Unfortunately, Spanish nationalism is not outdated. Plus you're based on a conservative concept of ethnicity that the Basque left Independentists do not believe in, they're all inclusive, that's the first thing that strikes you when you get to know them. There's nothing about racism, sectarianism or else. It's a class struggle and a fight against imperialism. The Basque term for 'basque' is 'euskaldun', which means 'Basque speaker'. Basically, if you speak the language, regardless of your place of birth, you are euskaldun.

by Realist Mon Aug 23, 2004 16:03

I can't believe that someone here actually defends two bombs being planted by saying 'there were warnings'. Tell that to the poor Basque water seller on the beach who could have been killed or seriously injured.
And he calls me a sycophant for defending the actions of a democratically elected government rather then the deluded extremism of a dying movement. It's proof that Madrid's tactics are working by cutting off funding to these terrorists. As for the Matrix analogy from our conspiracy theorist above, well that's just hilarious. Get over yourselves, speak Basque, teach Basque (no one minds belive it or not),
enjoy the beautiful scenery, partake in the beautiful Basque food etc, go to the Guggenheim. Enjoy what's good about the region.
Just please do not try and explain the actions of scum like ETA or Batasuna. They're finished. The Basque should take a leaf from Catalonia's book and celebrate their diversity within Spain with pride and honour. Spain is a kingdom and Spain will always be a kingdom. Hala Madrid.

by Republican Mon Aug 23, 2004 16:10

Up the Republic!!

by Sici and tierd Mon Aug 23, 2004 16:13

Hi Realist can I ask you some questions,

(1) Have you ever been to the Basque Country?

(2) What is the extent of your knowledge of the issue

(3) Is this knowledge media or fact based?

Basically I think you know nothing of the reality of Basque Life and believe me the similairites to israel and Yougoslavia are real for example,

In the Basque Country you can be held in communicado for five days without charge or legal respresentation. In 2003 out of 210 arrests of ppolitiacl activists 90 reported torture. Amnesty International and the UN have regulalry accused Spain of using torture in the Basque Country. The GAL was a terrorist group established and controlled by the Madrid Government to attak and kill Basques, this group operated under the Socialist government!!!!!!. Since 1975 there have been almost 44,000 political arrests. Go and see the large scale demos in the Basque Country and see the support there is for independence. The Basque Country has allways been virtually independent, historically even the Romans left them alone, they have always had separate laws, customs and langauge and why have these things happened because they are a distinct different people wanting freedom. Believe me when you see a peaceful demo in the Basque country you will also see heavily armed riot police and trouble, its caused by the police and they want it. It reminds me of the North in the 60's during the civil rights era.

So please if people ae going to dicsuss this issue please make sure you know the facts because if you dont you are destroying ther memory of all who have been killed. Remember yes that ETA has killed 800 people but how many innocent Basques have been killed by Spain, did you know that after the 11 March attacks in Spain, two innocent Basques were murdered by the police, one shot in his place of work by a policeman because the man would not show a sign denouning eta on his window. iTS TRUE YOU CAN CHECK THIS OUT, the other person killed was a woman shot by a plastic bullet and died of a heart attack when a policemaan shot her during a peace demo. Beleive me man, know your facts before you speak.

Isreal, Yugoslavia, Russia, Spain, I can keep going on, dont be fooled by a western style democracy its not, PP the previous goernment were all brought up and schooled by the old fascist regieme. I can keep going on but believe me its real and look before you open your mouth and hurt people who know what the situation is.

by Realist Mon Aug 23, 2004 17:04

I have been to the Basque country and it seemed like a beautiful part of Spain to me. I'm not saying that to annoy anybody, just geographically that's what it is part of Spain where a diverse Basque culture exists. I am also annoyed that people are perceiving me to be anti-Basque-I'm not, I'm anti-ETA and anti terror. I know all too well the paramilitary style violence which the Spanish government perpetrated (GAL etc) and I'm not defending any sort of jackboot militarism-in fact I despise it.

However, the crux of the matter here is that ETA (Batasuna etc) seem to bemoan that fact that they're not allowed fundraise etc through Batasuna as if they're representing all Basques, and I know that's not true (8-12% at a push according to an article in the Sunday Tribune yesterday as I recall). I also believe firmly that ETA/Batasuna are guilty of massive amounts of coercion.violence brutality etc. This link below shows the price of opposition to ETA/Batasuna terror

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR410012003?open&of=ENG-ESP

There are also plenty of other links (before people start telling me about them) relating to demands for transparency from police, central government etc relating to torture ill-treatment. I condemn unreservedly any such action. What I don't condemn is the banning of batasuna (a wondeful move) and I also don't mind the interment of prisoners in other parts of Spain-tough but effective with hardliners. It might not be pretty, but its proven to work. Don't bother throw any Guantanomo allegations at me either, it's totally different.

I also love Madrid, a truly great city, with the nicest people I've never met inSpain. I also know that ETA still carry a potent, but diminished threat and have been in the city when two ETA explosions went off. It's not nice to see an innocent population terrified (I'm sure there are similar stories from the Basque country too. Two bombs found on packed passenger trains just before Christmas 2003 highlight another ETA trait. And people wonder why they were blamed for 11-M. There is also the cynical and sick targetting of Spain's tourist economy.

I also can't get the image out of my memory of a councillor like Miguel Angel Blanco lying in a ditch with a bullet in his head after these bastards held the country to ransom for days. ETA/Batasuna are not representative of the Basque people, I know that, and I know that innocent Basques have suffered from heavy handed tactics from police etc. That happens everywhere.

I don't subscribe to the demonisation of Castille though and the victim complex which many Basque people seem to suffer from. It looks like a bustling, thriving part of the country to me. I understand what you're trying to get me to answer, you think that because I choose the side of a democratic government (whose predecessors has been less then perfect down the years) and because I like Madrid it somehow makes me some sort of quasi-fascist. The Spanish capital was the last to fall to Franco's forces and I think that Spain has come so far since those dark days that it's unbelievably stupid to say that modern politicians (the vast majority anyway) are somehow complicit in some sort of Fascist training. I think that a lot of thanks is due to your king Juan Carlos, for making some fairly brave choices after Franco's death. I'm not an expert, these are my opinions and I've formed them in the most balanced way I can. I don't want to shame the memories of anybody killed unjustly and i haven't, this victim complex annoys me.

I've also noted that nobody has commented on the obvious shame we should all feel if we see any more tricolours being waved at ETA 'gatherings.'

Let that be the end of it.

Ps: I also follow Real Madrid . That probably will annoy a few folks aswell . . . .

by iosaf Mon Aug 23, 2004 18:13

So here are two maps.
one of Euskal Herria you will note that the basque lands straddle the Western Pyrennes. It consists of seven traditional provinces Bizkaia, Gipuzkoa, Araba and Nafarroa in Spain (País Vasco) and Lapurdi, Nafarroa Beherea and Zuberoa in France (Pays Basque).
The top therefore is the French department, the majority is the Spanish provice of "pays vasco" with outlying regions in the Spanish province of Navarre.

and another of Paisos Catalanes which straddles the Eastern Pyrennes. The county of Rosselló is presently a French department but has recently started a "french catalanisation" project, the mayor supporting the present Catalan Government's plans for a European economic region. The south of Paisos Catalanes is presently the the Spanish province of Valencia and the East is the Spanish province of the Balearics. And a little bit of the West is presently Aragon.

The Catalan anarchist artist and poet, Brossa whilst a member of the Surrealist movement produced an interesting map of the Iberian peninsula in which Castille had dissappeared. The Surrealists did a lot of that, Dalí was attributed with another map which depicted Ireland as the size of Greenland and reduced Britain to the size of Achill.

euskal Herria

paisos Catalanes

by iosaf Mon Aug 23, 2004 18:33

if you draw a square above portugal continuing the eastern portuguese border to the sea you approximate the area of land claimed by Galizia.

If you "subtract" Euskal Herria and Paisos Catalans from Spain, the Spanish border with France is reduced to a small stretch of Aragon to the west of "Vall d'aran" which is claimed by Catalan nationalists. This is the weakest defensive point of the Pyrennes, evidence for which is the last military resistance offered Franco by the Maquis who crossed the border escaping the Nazis and Vichy regime in the final winter of WW2.
If you "subtract" EH and PPCC (as they're known) from España, you also take away 75% (approx) of heavy industry, mineral wealth, productive capacity and about 18 million people. Though this is completely hypothetical (it's not going to happen) a Spain without EH and PPCC would drop in it's GDP and GNP to the level of far eastern european state. Indeed if one subtracted Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland from the UK and then convinced the Yorkshiremen to dump England, the rump would be overpopulated and under-resourced. (it's not going to happen).

the Spanish "communidad" (as the 17 provinces of the present constitution are termed) of Pays Vasco is the only "autonomous region" in Europe which is allowed raise tax. The present constitution is felt (throughout the peninsula) to be long overdue reform. It is worth considering that the constitution of the 2nd Republic had allowed both Basque and Catalan autonomy as constituent republics within the Spanish one. The "magna carta" which followed Franco's death, saw the military _refuse_ to return to that situation, (the break-up of Spain was cited as the reason for Franco's coup d'etat) and crucially the present constitution does not term the Franco coup d'etat as a coup d'etat. I'd like everyone to note, that the only official act of legitimacy after the dictatorship was the return of certain Catalan ministers from exile to the restored "Generalitat", (the 2nd republic catalan president had died in exile at the hands of the gestapo).

The majority of Basques presently appear to support the plans by the Lehandakari (taoiseach) to reform the statue allowing for Euskal Herria (in it's current spanish "communidad" form) a type of "external association", which is quite reminiscent of De Valera's original plans for Ireland. Amongst those who have blocked this plan at European level are Irish politicians on the grounds that the current EU recognises "states" and not "countries" or any other varient ("externally associated independent republics).
Quite Ironically the British EU team have termed the plans "legitimate in intent", but "unworkable legally".

by iosaf Mon Aug 23, 2004 19:14

the ETA ceasefire for Catalonia followed a period intense political embarassment for the Tripartite government which was elected in December 2003. This coalition government replaced the previous centre right nationalist party which had held power for the 23 years since the beginning of the current constitution.
The Leader of the ERC (left republican catalan party) Josep Carod Rovira, met with ETA representatives last new year in the Eastern Pyrennes. Reports on this secret meeting were leaked to the press.
Can I remind everyone that this site (indymedia ireland) has the most comprehensive coverage of both Basque and Catalan politics in english, and if you use the search engine you will find everything you need. Carod was forced to resign his position as a result of that leak, many people still suspect the machinations of Aznar in that one. The ceasefire which followed was "popularly rejected" yet I must point out, that despite official governmental support and full page adverts the turn-out at the demonstration was only 2000.
read more- "the carod affair" (and the role played Pat Cox in it) and in the comments details of the ceasefire-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63179

Oh one thing, please remember whether or not you've been to Spain / EH / PPCC, that this country suffered a fascist regime for over 40 years. It was a military dictatorship and the armed forces still wield considerable power. Which alters a lot of political and cultural development. In this last week in BCN a nationalist and republican neighbourhood's annual traditional festival was marred by organised violence by one of the many fascist groupings which still exist in Spain and who are known to have links to the military "soldier by day - skinhead by night". I recently spoke to a man who was serving his compulsory military service the night of February 23 1981 when there was an attempted military coup. He was stationed in Ceuta (the spanish enclave in Morrocco) he recounted to me how he spent those few days thinking "twenty metres and I'm free". He reminded me that in this state those of the "right", those who supported Franco are still found in the military and the church. And they are generally thought to be more "extreme" right at the frontiers. And this strikes me as being one of the problems suffered by the Basques.

As for the lamentable connection which was made between ETA and the CSOA (squat), 15,000 people travelled to Pamplona to protest the closure of the centre. Thereafter a disused church (which is property of the Pamplona council) and is earmarked for future use a youth centre was occupied. It has now been abandoned.

Today's right wing "castillian" press reported both this "okupe outrage" in _navarra_, with news that ETA (which is known to be considerably weakened) has ordered it's youth followers to return to "kale borraka", exchanges with petrol bombs and stuff.

Spain or the Iberian peninsula is an extra-ordinarily diverse and volatile place. Always has been. And it is difficult for outsiders to negotiate the feelings that people have regarding - politics, family history, the civil war, religion etc., It's all very well saying you support "basque independence" or "catalan independence" when you say that to "basque independence or catalan independence believers". I have long passed the stage when I learnt _not to_ refer to the country in which I live. (Bit like "derry versus londonderry"). e.g. -
so do you like living in Spain?
oh yes I do. eh no I dont. eh--- I live in BCN!
or- do you like living in Catalonia?
oh yes I do. no i don't eh---- I live in BCN!

Whatever happens in the future as an anarchosindicalist I want the rights of workers to be most important. In Catalonia the plight of migrant workers who live in conditions of near slavery is the most important ( I believe ) before creating yet another state which serves the interest of yet another entrenched bourgoise. As an a example the "catalan police" are increasingly being deployed throughout catalonia to replace the "national police of spain".
The "catalan police" are very right wing, show me a police force who aren't, is it somehow better that the very right wing police who treat with the poorest and most criminalised are "catalan-catalan" and not "spanish-catalan"?
I don't think so.

For there will always be those who fall outside the "national wish state".
-There will always be Galicians in Portugal.

somos todos gallecs de portugal!

by Realist Mon Aug 23, 2004 20:12

Have to say Iosaf, that's an excellent post, and it makes me wish that this thread didn't get into the macros of the Spanish politico-cultural miasma which as you said is highly complex. I just wanted to make the anti-ETA point and I get sick of all this Madrid-bashing. From what I can gather most Basques (according to BAsta YA-an anti-ETA basque movement) want secession rather than independence. I firmly believe that the breakup of the Spanish kingdom would be disasterous for the whole peninsula.
Some of your points still smell of 'conspiracy theory' to me but as a whole fair play for such a well written and knowledgable response. Military service is no longer compulsory btw and can be substituted with community service (hospital work etc) albeit this option takes a longer phase to complete.

by iosaf Mon Aug 23, 2004 20:55

the evening of the "ETA ceasefire for Catalonia" a response "anti-terror demo" was called by the tripartite, I was teaching a music class.
In a satelite town forty kilometres away, a bunch of seventeen year olds, mostly talentless but representative (economically and culturally) of their town.
One which was mostly built to accomodate "migrants" from other parts of the peninsula during the 1960s. They were mostly galicians and andalucians. Today the town (pop. 80,000) is experiencing a second wave of "migration" most of whom are south american or north african. The director of the school where I was teaching suggested we hold a minutes silence in support of the catalonia wide "rejection of terrorism".
I agreed, one minute of silence is always very welcome in a music school.
My kids didn't want to hold that minute silence.
Several months later the madrid massacre occured and for many of us in the "real world", the political situation went very rapidly to critical. not only for basques, but for everyone left of centre.

It was reported here, and even in those days there was an argument as certain editors continued be insistent in the first crucial 36 hours in allowing ETA to be blamed. Those four days "which changed history" (the title of a current book no M11- M14) saw me and those with whom I share political and cultural belief on the street. From the evening of M11 to the morning of the general election.
The only moments of normality I had were taking again that class of teenagers for their weekly aucustic torture of recorders and jambees (?) steel drum and xylophone.
Almost to a single student, they wished leave the classroom and go participate in impromptu protest against ETA in their local town square. It was more than eight hours after any informed political activist _knew_ that ETA were _not_ the sole suspect and _plausibly_ were not responsible.
That night a basque man was shot in the basque country by an off duty basque policeman for not displaying an anti ETA sign in his shop window.

The following days saw over 11,000,000 people demonstrate against Terrorism.
I was one. By chance I saw one of my music students. Then 200,000 "leftists" demonstrated against the blatent lies and media manipulation which had been the PP response. I was one. Then in that little town where I taught, the "truth" finally hit home. And a young morrocan man was battered to death in the railway station "as revenge".
The afternoon of M14 as the "left" victory with 11,500,000 approx votes became apparant, "poltically sectarian" attacks peaked all over the peninsula. A young woman I had met in the little satelite town, of minorcan and turkish descent was abused verbally for being an arab. Her grand-father had been republican mayor of a town in Minorca and had fought in the Barcelona campaign where being recognised in the "clean up" afterwards was sent back to face "justice" in Minorca. In 1939 he was tied each limb to four horses in the village square and one rifle shot later he was dead.

I still hold the meaning of my minute's silence.

and I still hold the reality of those 96 hours when the mobiles were disconnected and fellow indymedia activists wouldn't listen and all the sores and hatred of family on family history were re-opened.

No Justice without Peace
No Peace without Forgiveness.
Know when to Stop.

by . Mon Aug 23, 2004 21:52

I see now why 'Realist' calls himself that, not out of being loyal to truth, but of his love for monarchy: "I think that a lot of thanks is due to your king Juan Carlos". 'Realist' is already assuming that anyone writing here at Indymedia Ireland has Juan Carlos for a king! Stick him up your hole if you like him so much!


"I've also noted that nobody has commented on the obvious shame we should all feel if we see any more tricolours being waved at ETA 'gatherings.' " Well get used to it, you shame of an individual, here in Ireland you will see two tricolours, beautiful both of them, and looking so well together!

Come on, now try and convince us of how nice Bush is, will you do it for a fiver?

by Realist Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:24

In response to someone who hasn't got the courage to give himself a name in this debate . . .

I referred to Juan Carlos as 'your' king because I believed I was replying to a post from a Spanish person. If I was wrong it's an innocent mistake. They're is no need to get abusive. I think as modern monarchies go, the Spanish one is one of the more acceptable. However, I'm not a monarchist and I suspect that the Spanish successor, Felipe, may well be the last.

I am Irish an I am disgusted if someone waves my flag at a terrorist rally by a banned organisation. I think that's my right to voice my disgust or is it now normal on this site for any post which isn't rabidly anti-establishment or militantly leftist (pathetic) to be slaughtered the way I have been for expressing my opinion about the less romantic side of a very complex problem. Read the posts by Iosaf above which are excellent and then do some reading of your own about Spain or maybe actually travel there and talk to people there and broaden your limited mind. All your abuse proves is your ignorance.

by Knows what I am talking about Tue Aug 24, 2004 14:03

hello again realist,

I have a couple of points to make in reply to your last email.

1) Being from Spain dosnt mean that Juan Carlos is "your" king. The reality is that the Spanish Monarchy is not popular in Spain and never has been.

2) You say that the Spanish Monarchy is one of the most acceptable well for your information here is a few point, Juan Carlos de Bourbon (the King) was handpicked and installed by franco himself, Franco was a fascist dictator for over 40 years and he installed the king into power. Secondly in 1981 there was a coup attempt in Spain to restore the fascists to power and it has been suggested that the King was the one who orchestrated the whole event himself and then turned against it at the last moment.

3) Anyone can say there own opinions but I am afraid your knowledge of the Basque issue and Spain is poor. In Spanish the Basque Country is Pais Vasco which means Basque Country thereby denoting an area which historically has been independent until the the 18th century and even then has enjoyed special status ever since indeed the Basque Country was totally independent for a period during the civil war. Their language is totally distinct from Spanish indeed from any other European language and their customs are also distinct.

4) I am Irish and I can see the Irish flag being used in such occassions by people trying to overcome oppression, its waved by Palestinians also, are they too not oppressed and really happy, the Irish falg is a symbol to many peoples over the world of asmall nation fighting for its rights and is a potent symbol of self determination and long may it continue that we see it being seen as such a symbol.

5) Finally nobody uses their name here Realist so whats all that about

by manwithnoname Tue Aug 24, 2004 14:20

"Realist", would you be one of the Realist Family from just outside Mitchelstown?

by . Tue Aug 24, 2004 14:50

I do not believe 'realist' is Irish, or otherwise he has a very thin memory of his own past, where most things Irish were banned by the English. The Irish-Brittish conflict has a strong parallel in the Basque-Spanish/French conflict. Honestly, I haven't met any one yet here in Ireland supporting the arguments he maintains. Even his problem with my '.' name sounds Spanish to me, holding on to the most ridiculous arguments. Spanish embassy employee? Wouldn't surprise me.

By the way, my offer of the fiver is still up ;-D

by Realist Tue Aug 24, 2004 16:01

Believe me '.' I'm Irish and live right in lovely Dublin city . The 1981 coup had nothing to do with King Juan Carlos, that's just pure reactionary hypothesis on your part and you know it. I referred to him as your king because unless things change he will remain that. King of the entire kingdom recognised as Spain. If you live in those borders he is your king. Those borders include the Basque country unless there is a democratic process which changes that-if there is fine-however it'll never happen.

I am disgusted by the use of the Irish tricolour at abhorrent ETA/Batasuna rallies and remain so-I've apologised to many Spanish about it and told them it is not representative of Spanish relations with Ireland which are thankfully very strong with people of all ethnic backgrounds who live as part of that kingdom

I've actually just seen something about 'poor' Galicia on this "website" now. Look, a bandwagon approaches . . . .

I came to make my points and all I get is abuse-'indy media' my @rse. Reply if you want, it's highly unlikely I'll reading or replying.

Hala Madrid. Viva Espana. Basta Ya

by Realist Tue Aug 24, 2004 16:23

Juan Carlos wasn't installed on the throne in '75. He was the natural heir to it as Grandson to King Alfonso XIII who fled in 1931 during the dictatorship of primo de rivera. He was the natural heir to the Spanish throne. With Juan carlos on the throne Spain made the transition from dictatorship to democracy.

I think a good idea for anyone, just to see how far Spain has come, is to go and visit the grave of Franco just an hour from the beautiful, vibrant and liberal Spanish capital. The 'Valley of the Fallen' as it's known is a truly monstrous fascist complex built by Republican slaves who died in their thousands after the war. Every year, in November, what's left of fascist extremism gathers to remember their leader in a ceremony which shrinks dramatically each year. Rather like ETA support really

by Republican Tue Aug 24, 2004 16:35

"He was the natural heir to it as Grandson to King Alfonso XIII who fled in 1931 during the dictatorship of primo de rivera. "

That would have been his father who Franco passed over because he viewed him as politically unreliable. Where did you learn your history of Spain. Ladybird readers?

by Realist Tue Aug 24, 2004 16:43

Can't have been easy so I think he's done an excellent job considering the circumstances . . .

His Majesty Juan Carlos I, Juan Carlos Alfonso Víctor María de Borbón y Borbón (born January 5, 1938), is the reigning King of Spain. His grandfather Alfonso XIII was King of Spain until deposed in 1931 by the Second Spanish Republic. The Republic was ended by the Spanish Civil War and followed by the dictatorship of Francisco Franco, who ruled until his death on November 20 1975. On November 22, Juan Carlos became King of Spain. Juan Carlos also claims the title of King of Jerusalem, as the successor to the royal family of Naples.

Juan Carlos was born in exile in Rome, Italy. As a child, he was known as Juanito ("Johnny"). He left his parents and moved to Spain to follow an education under Franco's watch. This was imposed by Franco as a condition to restore the monarchy.

In 1956, his younger brother Alfonso died of a gunshot wound at his parents' home in Estoril, Portugal. The official explanation is an accident while cleaning a gun. It is uncertain whether the gun was shot by Alfonso or by Juan Carlos, the only witness of the death.

By designating Juan Carlos as successor to the Head of State in 1969, Franco ignored the successory rights of Juan de Borbón, the father of Juan Carlos, and tried to educate Juan Carlos as his successor for the maintenance of the regime. During the dictatorship, Franco created the title of Prince of Spain (not Prince of Asturias) for his heir. He started to use the second name Carlos to assert his pretensions to the heritage of the Carlist branch of his family. Franco for a long time played with conceding the throne to Juan Carlos' cousin, Alfonso de Borbón Dampierre. During periods of incapacity of Franco in 1974 and 1975, Juan Carlos was acting Head of State. Near death, Franco conceded that he was too ill to govern on October 30, 1975 and the monarchy was restored with control given to Juan Carlos, whom the dictator had groomed to be his fascist successor.

However, after Franco's death Juan Carlos quickly instituted democratic reforms, to the great displeasure of conservative elements, especially in the military, who had expected him to maintain the fascist state. He appointed Adolfo Suárez, a former leader of the Movimiento Nacional as Prime Minister of Spain. In 1978, a new constitution was promulgated that acknowledges Juan Carlos as rightful heir of the dynasty and King. The King abandoned his dictatorial powers and became a ruling, non-governing monarch. An attempted coup (23-F) on February 23, 1981, in which the Cortes were seized, with gunfire in the parliamentary chamber, seemed likely to derail the process, until the unprecedented public television broadcast by the King called for unambiguous support for the legitimate democratic government. In the hours before, the King had personally called senior military figures throughout Spain, many of whom had been told by coup leaders that he was supporting them, to tell them in no uncertain terms that they must defend the democratic government.

When he became king, one Communist leader (Santiago Carrillo), nicknamed him 'Juan Carlos the Brief', predicting that he and the monarchy would be swept away with all the remnants of fascism. In 1981, that same leader, after the collapse of the coup, in a clearly emotional state told television viewers "God save the King!" If public support for the monarchy among democrats and left wingers prior to 1981 was conditional, following the King's handling of the coup it was unconditional and absolute, with a former senior leader of the Second Republic telling television viewers 'we are all monarchists now'. In spite of that, it is commonly said that many Spaniards are not monarchists but "Juancarlists".
In 1977, his father formally renounced his pretensions to the throne. Juan Carlos thanked him by confirming the title of Count of Barcelona that Don Juan had assumed in exile.
Juan Carlos was married in Athens on May 14, 1962, to Princess Sophia of Greece, daughter of King Paul. They had two daughters, Elena and Cristina, and a son, the heir apparent, Felipe.

Today, the King reigns as a constitutional monarch, exercising little real power over the country's politics. He is regarded as an essential symbol of the country's unity, though his interventions and views are listened to and respected by politicians from all sides of the political divide. Under the constitution, the King has immunity from prosecution in matters relating to his official duties. His annual speech to the nation on Christmas Eve is transmitted by most Spanish television channels. He is also the commander-in-chief of the Spanish armed forces. His birthday is a military holiday.

In 1979, King Juan Carlos instituted the Ruta de Quetzal as a way to promote cultural exchange between students from Spain and Latin America. In 1987, he became the first king of Spain to visit the former Spanish possession of Puerto Rico.

by Republian Tue Aug 24, 2004 16:50

You were wrong then (sur)Realist?

by iosaf Tue Aug 24, 2004 18:52

I'm on the only one who used on this thread (apart from Paul C) his real name-

The King was chosen by the Franco regime which passed an act in 1967 which transformed Spain from a dicatorship to a constitutional monarchy. The legal process was a complex one which had already entailed the techincal abdication of Juan Carlos's father in favour of the prince.
By 1967 Franco had entered his notorious last phase of senile dementia. It is known that Franco's son in law ( a marquis) and his wife favoured another candidate for the Bourbon throne.
The annual display of fascism is held on October 12 not in november. The amount of inacuracy in the comments above is startling. There is little excuse to get such details wrong if they are available on this site. Thus I can only deduce that this thread is as filled with willfull provaction and trolling as any other.
Towards the end of the franco regime, ETA in it's first phase (as the IRA it has gone through many stages of organisation, political ideology and support) was credited with "resistance" against the regime which yearly became more and more absurd. Such popular sympathy with the paramilitary group which had been started in a Roman Catholic seminary compares with the popular revulsion of armed struggle as a tactic in today's Spain.

There is a wonderful and comic movie dedicated to all spaniards who suffered the fascist regime by the Catalan theatre group "els jonglers". It's called "good journey excellency" and gives a small indication of the decrepit Franco towards the end who had became the frontman for a group of criminals and militarists.
In scenes reminsicent of our most clichéd image of south american dictators, the ageing dictator was brought in limosine cavalcades to visit abandoned villages.
Always accompanied by his "legionaires" the only "pep talk" he could remember was the warning-
"the enemies of Spain and Christian civilisation are ever present and wish us harm".
This for me is a symptom of all oppresive and totalitarian regimes. They create and maintain false enemies and they favour those enemies to be within their own borders.

There is so much the Irish could learn about their own troubled national question from both basque and catalans. But too many of them don't appear to get past stage one-
"we are both oppressed".
Great pity. The man to whom I referred to above who served his compulsary military service in 1981 is a Catalan. He shared his sentry duty with a Basque. A Catalan and Basque thus found themselves that night of Feb 23 on the border with Morocco in Ceuta.
Both found themselves thinking "twenty metres and I'm free". They found themselves thinking that, because their senior officer had opened a bottle of cava (champagne) when the news of the coup attempt came on the radio. "Tomorrow men we will repeat the brave adventure of the Caudillo and cross the straits", he drunkenly told his basque and catalan conscripts.
Today Spain has a professional army. You will not find Catalan and Basque conscripts on the Ceutan border.

Now if the contributors to this thread can't get the subtle message in this- they don't get to module two

"what is a country about where a young woman grows up as a next door neighbour to the men who tied her grandfather to horses really like"

by the dot Tue Aug 24, 2004 23:53

Waw, this is a real Indymedia thread, with Spanish cops and all. Here they cut and paste from Spanish history books, and where no one can see or read, they torture.

One thing is obvious, they have no clue of the Irish mind, they might be able to sell their bullshit better to a British audience, who have a more similar imperialist attitude and history.

The Irish tricolour is a Republican flag and symbolises the defeat of the monarchy and all what it has done to Ireland, learn that first. In any case, you're showing the kind of people you are with all the arguments you put together through this thread, 'iosaf' and 'realist' and whatever other names you call yourselves.

"Cuando las barbas de tu vecino veas cortar...." I'm sure you understand what that means. Spanish Imperialism is outdated here: for those who claim to stay away from politics, Spain is no more than a holiday place (that's were ETA bombings get you so frustrated, eh?), for those who are politically aware, it's just another Britain. And man do they love Britain here!!!!!! ;-D

by paul c Wed Aug 25, 2004 00:30

complicated but ta iosaf you know alot of stuff

the sorta map i was looking for would be one where it shows catalonia and basque ( whats the etomology of the the "spanish" name for it) and possible the galician region all on one map so you could see whats left of spain

i believe many greek? cypriots use the irish flag too

by cartographer Wed Aug 25, 2004 01:54

listen here you really aren't appreciating either basque or catalan nation if you only want a map where two nations that straddle the pyrennes are only depicted within the borders of the Spanish state.

I suppose you'll be asking for maps of Ulster without Northern Ireland next?

& please remember there will always be the most oppressed of all, the socialist galicians of southern galicia living completely uninteresting lives in the Portuguese state.

by pc Wed Aug 25, 2004 02:08

i never said anything about a map which only showed them within the current spanish borders!

by Curious Wed Aug 25, 2004 14:20

"The following days saw over 11,000,000 people demonstrate against Terrorism.
I was one. "

From what I recollect it was the government who called the demonstrations under the slogans 'with the victims, with the constitution, for the defeat of terrorism'.
How did the 'with the constitution' part go down in Catalonia?
Whatever about Basque or Catalonian nationalism, it struck me that what was going on here, was a case of extreme mass Spanish nationalism. The reification of the Spanish nation, if you will.
Was 'Espana, unida, jamas sera vencida' - a common chant that night?

by iosaf Wed Aug 25, 2004 14:49

If you go to the Guardian site and search for his cartoon which marked M11 you will see his drawing of placa Jaume in Barcelona, the square where both Generalitat (government of Catalonia) and Ajuntamient (Barcelona's municipal government) are found and which was occupied as peace camp for the duration of the Iraqi "hot" war.

His cartoon accurately reflects the mood of the day. Please remember that on that day it is fairly certain that Aznar and others were calling for the introduction of an emergency act and suspension of the general elections. It was thought that this would mean the temporary introduction of military rule and naturally the suspension of democratic institutions. It is also known that the King refused to such an order and maintained that the general elections be held "regardless" on March 14th.
The 11,000,000 protest saw everyone go on the street including "all the usual suspects" in Barcelona (why I presume Steve Bell set his response here) and the heads of all neighbouring states including Portugal and France and for the first time a member of the Royal family attended a political demonstration the heir to the throne.

that really is quite a mixture. Perhaps there are times when the "less bad option" truly appeals...

More than that, if you are genuinely interested PLEASE go read the articles and comments which were posted during that period. Can't be too difficult-
archive search the month of March.
subject search Madrid, Spain, Barcelona etc.

by ipsiphi Wed Aug 25, 2004 14:53

but we prefer to oppose democratically based states to the other options.
And when we shout, people listen... this time.

by Curious Wed Aug 25, 2004 15:36

I am genuinely interested. I wouldn't be asking otherwise.
I did a quick search of the archives (interesting photos from the Dublin vigil show that the three slogans I mentioned where very much on view) and I can't find anything that conveys the mood of the people in Catalonia on the Friday demos other than downright disgust.
I'm trying to ascertain, whether there was much thought given to fact that 'for the constitution' was a key slogan pushed by the main political forces. Is it not the case that whether it was PP, PSOE or IU that they all jumped to the conclusion 'it was ETA'?
The other viewpoint I got was from a person who felt that the mood was aggressively nationalistic. He felt that the mood was ugly and depressing and not just because of the events of the previous day: a complete contrast to the mobilisations of the previous year.

by curious cats of catalan land. Wed Aug 25, 2004 22:26

- "whether there was much thought given to fact that 'for the constitution' was a key slogan pushed by the main political forces. Is it not the case that whether it was PP, PSOE or IU that they all jumped to the conclusion 'it was ETA'?"
¿?¿?
first idea- it was the final week of a general election campaign. The outgoing president (and thus his protegé) was opposed by all but his catalan party equivalent in Catalonia.
second idea-
you make reference to three parties the PP the PSOE and the IU.

hmmm-
Catalonia was contesting an election between CIU PPC PSC ERC IVC and others. CIU had some months before lost their 23 year control of the Generalitat to a tripartite coalition of PPC/ERC/IVC competition was between those parties for the Catalan representation in the Cortes.

What else you want to ascertain?

That the city I live in has consistently manifested it's pacifism?
then open a thread in the appropriate language and ask them.

by Spanish Shit Sat Jan 29, 2005 16:29

Up the Basque Country Free !!

The political mayority of the Basque Parlament (52 %) has decided to go on with the "Ibarretxe Plan" (New Basque Constituion Book). The mayority are:

PNV - EAJ : Basque Nacionalist Party
EA : Basque Solidarity (Nacionalist)
IU - EB : Left Unity (Left Basque Movement )

and the 2 votes of BATASUNA, saying YES,....


The Negative vote is from PSOE, PP and 2 votes of BATASUNA.

The desission is go on.......!!
This is a democratic state.........

by Carlos Rekarte Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:22

ETA and its followers you are all shity cowards. You kill from the back, you kill people who are working hard everyday to build a better society, a better place to live, to support their families.
A real warrior battles face to face, as they are doing in Irak, for example. If you have chosen war as your only path then make a real war, face to face, give a gun to your target and see you kills who, that would be a fair event. But no, you are too coward to risk your own ass. your are so coward that all you talk about is the prisioners being brutally tortured... and why not? You start this shit so you must take the consequences too. If you don't die in this world I assure you there is a living hell waiting for you whenever you die.

by Sherlock Holmes Mon Feb 28, 2005 13:04

So here we have a justified criticism of ETA followed up by statements saying that ETA prisoners should be tortured and when they die they are going to hell. How can you honestly expect to have a conflict resolution when you are dealing with two extremes. I am not an ETA supporter but the last poster should be treated in exactly the same manner as he expects ETA prisoners to be treated. How can you honestly expect ETA supporters to enter, fully and completely, the democratic process when they are dealing with people like the last poster.

by Al-Azraq Sun Aug 21, 2005 20:09

Catalonia's project is a nazi's project cause valencian people don't want be catalans. In Valencia, we speak Valencian language and the catalans say is the seem Catalan language and Valencian language cause they wan't absorve us and found a new country centralised in Catalonia, where Valencian Community will be their satelit. For this we will never, never, never be catalans!

Vixca lo Regne de Valencia!!

by ? Mon Aug 22, 2005 00:38

you vote PP.
the valencian regional government sent a copy of your appraisal of the spanish state's EU draft constitution acceptance to the EU offices in Brussels in "Valencian", because they say "valencian" is not "catalan".
the EU sent it back; because word for word; Valencian is Catalan. There is no valencian language, it has less lingusitic validity than ulster scots, it is a dialect of Catalan and thats that.
Valencia is the known hotbed of spanish fascism and skinheads, all extreme right attacks in catalonia on catalans and others have been made by valencians, including the murder of a teenage punk last summer.

The night ofthe failed February 23 coup d'etat against the young spanish democratic state, Valencia and Valencia alone - saw tanks placed on the street by its regional general.

by - Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:17

De Juana Chaos, (a name that has more resonance in english than either spanish or basque) is at the centre of an ETA case for articles he wrote for the ETA newspaper Gara in december 2004, entitled ""El Escudo" and "Gallizo" in which he actively promoted terrorist activity.
http://actualidad.terra.es/nacional/articulo/askatasuna_juana_secuestrado_articulos_opinion_455968.htm

by mini Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:59

This comment is specially for the girl above who says that there isn´t any kind of turture in the spanish state. I have a close friend that has been taken out of his house violently without any proves to involve him in any terrorist organization. i´m telling you there is both psycological and physical torture although spanish politicians don´t admit it. I am a basque independentist and i don´t support violence either, i try to explain my ideas, just that, without doing any harm. But you should open your eyes and see how the spanish media are trying to control people´s minds tellind that torture doesn´t exist in the "perfect" spanish state. Because while you are arrested, you are incommunicated and no one knows nothing of what is happening to you , so this helps the autorities to go on torturing. If you don´t believe this read reports that UN makes warning the spanish state.

What about all the basques that are sent to jails far away from the basque country? If you read the spanish constitution you will see it´s an inconstitutional event because they should be put in the nearest jail. Then the fascists of PP and false socialists of PSOE dare talking about HB, HZ,(ilegalized political parties), EGUNKARIA(ilegalized newspaper), or that even ETA are inconstitutional????. The problem is that the goverment does whatever it wants to depending on the person or situation. Why are they always sending basque political partys to court or ilegalizing them? Didn´t you know that in the PP from Galicia there is a fascist guy that supported Franco?? Why isn´t he banned from politics????
Open your eyes and don´t let those spanish fascists close them again.

Gora Euskadi Askatuta!!!

by hmmm Fri Sep 30, 2005 13:43

the presence of torture in the spanish state is known to all. it is shameful and historic. Everyone in Spain has a story about the past of some family member of neighbour. ETA has no monopoly on this.
A fascist state doesn't just move to democracy with elections. The institutions of police and army don't just learn new tricks and how to be respectful of human rights overnight. The presence of torture does not mean torture is a state policy. Spain still has many workers in key historical institutions who break the rules on human rights. That is usual. Ireland has many too. I've been hit harder on the head during demonstrations in Spain than any other country, but my flat was illegally searched in ireland and my property taken without warrent in Ireland.

What is different is the coverage that suspicious deaths now get, the willingness by both government and media to tackle the problem. The development of a "culture of open-ness" to admit what happened, what was allowed to happen. In "southern Irish" terms an equivalent of this is the new awareness of what the 50s and 60s were like for unmarried mothers. A new awareness of how the troubles began. The situation has improved and is getting better.
You must be aware, if you know "fraga the ex president of galicia's local government was a fascist minister" that just as his "tradition" is still represented in public life and institutions now the opposing tradition is too. There are many politicians and workers for the state who were in their day victims of torture, abitary arrest and abuse. They have worked more than any eta leadership to end the culture and historical legacy of terror, torture, secrecy and fascism.

It is a process.

Yet Eta is still engaged in terrorism not the process. If you attempt to see Eta now in the same terms as the organisation that fought the fascist regime you would probably see the "real IRA" as the true inheritors of 1916. maybe you do.

The people of the basque and of spain deserve to live in peace, and enjoy their rights admit their responsibilties to build inclusive societies.
That is a process which the vast majority of basques want to see, and have wanted to see.
It is their democratically and peacefully manifested and legal and legitimate will.
The majority of the Spanish have voted for a regime which wishes to work with the basques to achieve that and when polled want their government to engage in a peace process.

It is very difficult to bring that process forward whilst there is still a tiny minority which refuses to take the first steps to "dialogue" and "conflict resolution" and intiate a "peace process".

As long as there are fascists in the guardia civil on one side, there will be fascists in eta on the other.
and vice versa.

But neither can achieve their "goals". Fraga "the
fascist of galicia" is gone now. Democracy finally ended him. democracy takes a long time to develop. it is "an emergent process".
The notion of "one spain people language culture and nation" is going now too. Not asa result of bombs but as a result of peaceful politics.
.
But when all is changed, gypsies and other minorities will still be tortured in police stations throughout europe. won't they?
& there will still be dead on all sides of political nationalist conflicts won't there?
it is time for Eta to stop. it is time for the Basques to develop their legitmate and historic rights as a people. & in that process prisoner issues get dealt with. There is now however less dispersal than at any stage of the history of the spanish state.
it seems the spanish state and the basque people are progressing, and the only ones left behind are Eta.

by ALEJANDRO Wed Nov 02, 2005 18:30

ETA are nothing more than murdering dogs and terrorists! Why do they fight Spain's democracy? They are fighting something that died 30 fucking years ago! ETA must be stopped before it kills more innocent people. It is times like this, that I wish Franco was still alive and in charge of Spain. He would teach those dogs a lesson. Espana! Una, Grande y Libre! Spain! One,Great and Free! Viva Espana!

by Severiano Javier Tue Dec 27, 2005 20:52

Listen to me! Yes, it is true that the Bsques suffered when General Franco was in charge of Spain, but so did every other non Castilian speaking area. Galicia, Catalunya and Pais Vasco. Do you see the Galicians or Catalan people becoming terrorists? No!

The Basque people have back their language, their culture and their politicial freedoms, so why do they continue to harm Spain's democracy? I tell you why they do that. Because they are sick murderers and want money. Wake up Europe and wake up world and wake up Vascos! ETA are fighting against General Franco, hello....he has been dead for 30 years and so has his regime! Get Over It!

ETA are terrorists like Bin Laden, they may not want to harm all countries but they share the same desire for money and power.

It is only natural for us Spanish to blame ETA for what happened on 11M, after all they tried to do a similar thing on Christams Eve 2003. They put two bombs on two different trains!

Shame on ETA! Shame on Europeans that support them! Shame on anyone that supports them! Viva Espana! ETA NO!

If any of you people wish to support ETA, then you are becoming like them! You are becoming terrorsists and murderers! You people shopuld be ashamed of yourselves! Supporting monsters that take life for money and power! Power and Money is meaningless, Family is what matters and ETA have robbed many people of their families and their lives! So fuck ETA! and Fuck anybody that supports the terrorist scum!