Debate Breaks Out In UCDSU Over Use Of Oscailt

by eeekkkkkk Wed Aug 17, 2005 00:37

let them waste money setting up an undemocratic one and steal their audience

ucdsu-other or some such formulation as title

my 2c

by James R Wed Aug 17, 2005 02:09

But considering the fact that a decision to scrap the site has to be taken by exec, which can be over turned by council its very much worth fighting. If this site goes it'll be a huge loss of an archive for the past year. Considering its pretty much a self generating one and the difficulty in maintaining records in a very transient organisation like a SU, even from a FF position it'd be thick. Of course this has NOTHING to do with functionality, never mind aesthetic. It's a politically motivated attack by a Fianna Fail president and a cligue of wing nuts on exec around him who are attempting to scupper any criticism of the Union, or any attempt to organise campaigns on even a vaguely democratic basis. Very little really changes in student politics does it?


I'd imagine the reason the article above was placed here is because, since some people have gotten their grubby hands on the codes for the UCDSU site, such criticism is no longer acceptable or safe on the site.


For instance, this thread critical of the manner in which the staff positions were filled was also removed in dodgy circumstances:
http://www.ucdsu.net/newswire.php?story_id=621

Another thing is where would people get the money to pay for an independent site, its €300 a year..scroungy students and all that.

by sensible Wed Aug 17, 2005 02:13

;-)

Anyone with patience can download the entire contents of an oscailt site just in case

it's wanton destruction if an archive like that is trashed

by archive Wed Aug 17, 2005 02:19

"This thread was deleted by person or persons unknown. If somebody thinks a thread should be deleted then a reason should be given to the editorial group (which wasn't) and it should be done openly and transparently, not like this. For the record, the staff positions have now been filled. Patrick McKay is the Design and Communications Officer, Peter Doris is the Research and Development Officer, and Shaun Smyth is the Accomodation and Employment Officer. "

by Adam Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:57

Amused - the current UCD SU website is a rehash of the Indymedia site. In other words, instead of being a resource aimed at giving students clear and concise information, the official SU website is become yet another forum for discussion about iran, iraq, Tesco, Shell and so on and son on.. ie: ends up being a minor mirror of this site. and ends' up having a conspiracy theory/call anything news sheen.

The information apolitical students want (the vast majority of the 20,000 ucd students) ends up burried and muddled in with opinion. The website should be a place students can go and feel reassured about what their union does, the services it provides and instead it turns into a left/right slagging pitch dominated by hacks taking pot shots at each other.

As a former Communications officer in UCD SU and a professional webpage designer for 4 years prior, I left the UCD SU with an easy to edit, clean, non biased website in May 2002, only for it to be incompetantly mismanaged by the following year and turned into a political football.

While the current site contains a lot of good, useful information, it's severely marred by the 'opinions' masquarading as news. By all means keep as a student portal, but the offical SU website should only have sanction news and info - I fully support a decision to redesign it.

by Shipsea Wed Aug 17, 2005 13:15

What exactly is it that you feel students need to feel 'reassured' about, Adam? Aside from your (inaccurate)charicature-comparison to the Indymedia website, it seems the way it has evolved is directly as a consequence of contributions from the same students whose wishes you seem to think you understand better than they do themselves. Perhaps the design of the site wasnt so great after all? Perhaps you ignored the uses which many students would want to make of it, in favour of a more anodyne brochure style website with little more substance to it than providing contact information. Either way, the point of the original post here was not so much what the website should be but how the decisions about it were being taken - and the possible lack of democratic decision-making. Students of all persuasions and none should be concerned about that.

by Hee Haw Wed Aug 17, 2005 14:58

That site reflected the self image of the creator as a clean cut young professional I'm sure, but it was just staid, boring and brochure like to the rest of us. Whats the point of a website if no one uses it? No one used yours. The site reflects the discussions people want to have. For the minute its the L and H Immigration debate, last week it was Freshers Guide submissions, before that it was the quality of Exec and Officer reports. Building these useless caricature versions of the site where the most common theme of debate is the prospects for marxism on Mars does your argument no favours at all. If these discussion based sites are so horrific then how come you can pop up immediately after anything of relevence to you with a comment? Either you have bookmarked a Google search on your name or you are a regular returning viewer of the kind of sites you advocate tearing down. How people use the internet is dramatically changing, sites like the one below just don't really cut it in the context of something like a union, an institution based on user participation and comment. The site reflects that.


http://www.ucd.ie/su/about/sitemap.html

by Starstruck - UCD Graduate looking with disgust and concern at current behaviour Wed Aug 17, 2005 15:06

The behaviour of the new Union President is a disgrace and absolutely typical of the values that he and his cronies espouse and have ALWAYS done so.
Endas statement is not in the least bit ott,it merely cuts the bullshit and polite posturing which characterises a lot of criticism and puts the blatant overspending and closed shop practices of the new administration to the fore.

I endured 3 years of Fianna Failurism in UCD form 2000-2003 with Mr O'Lionnain and Mr Hourihane(The former being a saint and a decent individual compared to the latter) and this sort of back door,underhanded shennanigans is exactly what happened back then and it appears not much has changed.

Firstly 330 Euro a week is not excessive IF the officers in question actually did the full week that is assigned to them,instead of going off to the Galway races under the guise of sickness to enjoy party hospitality,networking and career advancement,and I dont necessarily mean a political career.There have been several occasions when I have visited the "student" centre in the past few weeks between the hours of 4 and 5 and there has been NO presidential presence in the corridor,and NO it wasnt just when there were important meetings taking place.This is a fucklin disgrace,I think 330 is more than enough to be paying someone in a Sabaat position and for that much cash I would at least expect them to be PRESENT in the workplace at the very least.

Secondly,the spending of Union money on personalised clothing and hospitality for visiting unions would NOT be something I would personally fully support but I can see how a small amount of expenditure on these may be necessary.
However,the production of L and H style hoodies with personalised stiching DEVOID ven of the Union logo is unaccepptable and to have TWO of these for each officer together with five tshirts is not only an insult to the otdinary student and a statement of power ,prestige and superiority normally associated with certain people with Freshers week jackets---Not to mention the fact that its a gross waste of money,money which could be spent on amking students feel part of the Union,rather than looking in from the outside at these self important posers strolling around campus with their inflated egos squeezing through the corridors.
Give four of the tshirts to charities or raffle them for 20 "lucky" students!

As regards taking other USI and Su officials out on junkets at UCD students expense,not only is that yet another waste of peoples money its completely unnecessary.If they want to go and play bowling,drink and play Quasar thats fine!Just pay for it themselves,thats what the rest of us with jobs do!The students are paying you to do a job,to represent their interests and protect their right to education,not to become Kingpin or King Quasar.

Aonghus was accustomed to having a large tab in the student bar to fund his Brandy exploits,and the dirnking habits of his cronies,as far as I am concerned the initial actions of the new administration are just a rehash of old ways,old mistakes,corruption and power-mongering.

As regards the site,it is NOT Indymedia,that website can be found at www.indymedia.ie

Open forums are open,the whole idea is so that ANYONE with ANY political viewpoint or with ANYTHING to say can post up articles,comments,whatever.Adam,your naivity is astounding,flood the site with your thoughts my friend, its anOPEN FORUM!

Accountabitily will come to pass,changing the website because you're scared people will find out what you are up to James (or rather what you're not up to) will change nothing,just like your stint as Education officer,or rather,room occupier,changed nothing.

Term hasnt even begun and the true colours are already shining sickeningly through

by starstruck Jr. Wed Aug 17, 2005 16:24

"the rest of us with jobs" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by Adam Wed Aug 17, 2005 18:15

Clean cut young professional? Jesus, thanks!

More seriously though, the link there is to the slash and burnt version that exsisted the year later when the 02/03 comms officer turned it into frames, so in fairness, thats about half a page.. but anyway.

The point I was making was that the indymedia/open publishing model does not belong on an organisation's official homepage. The UCDSU website, should (and yeah you need a competant union) be a resource for students to gte answer to questions on stuent services and the like.

Open publishing is fine and worthy concept, but it belong on a portal NOT on the SU website where opinions can be taken as fact.

I'm not blasting Open Publishing, just saying it doesn't belong on that site.

As for who uses the current UCDSU site, it's a hackfest, is that really the target audience?

by UCDSU Sabbatical Officers Wed Aug 17, 2005 22:22

This is a response by the 5 sabbatical officers to the many factual inaccuracies contained within the original article posted here. All sabbatical officers have contributed to it.




The purpose of this statement is to set the record straight about the mistakes and inaccuracies of the original article. Individual officers may also offer their own analyses and opinions on the thread, but this is purely a joint response in order to correct the many falsehoods and errors the article contains.

It should be pointed out that drafting this response has involved substantial fact-checking and thus has taken a great deal of time and effort. As a result of this, many officers will be staying on at work for at least another few hours. Thus, this means that time that could have been spent doing important work has had to be spent instead correcting one person’s false statements.

Despite the time involved, it was felt that correcting these false claims was an urgent matter given the seriousness of the allegations.

Hopefully this will be a reminder to anyone who wishes to write on this site in the future, to be responsible about what they say.





1)
The first factual inaccuracy of this article is in the title. In this year’s union there have been no cover ups, no “bullshit” and definitely no over-expenditure. In fact, despite the author including the phrase “cover ups” in the title, he makes no mention of this anywhere else in the article. And far from “over-expenditure”, this year’s Students Union have made a concerted and successful attempt to ensure that students are getting the very best deals for their money in every area of union expenditure.

For instance, the Freshers Guide will pay for itself, and the freshers packs will actually make money for the union, while at the same time being far more complete and attractive to students than any previous year. This is only one example of a union-wide attempt to ensure that students’ money is used wisely.




2)
QUOTE: “Not only is this going to cost some amount of money the job is going to be giving to a close friend of a certain hack that is always spotted skulking around the corridor.”


The amount of money going to be spent on this website is substantially less than was spent on the website the year before last.

Furthermore, the person who we interviewed for the job is not a "close friend" of any SU officer, but rather an acquaintance of one. Indeed, they had not seen or heard each other in 6 years. Furthermore, he has a 1.1 degree in Computer Science and Multimedia and so has more than the necessary qualifications needed to design a website. Moreover, no final decision as been taken as to who will design the website.




3)
QUOTE: “Any attempts to change this site should be left to council and not one man who has a problem with constructive criticism.”


It is not “one man” who is making decisions regarding the website. This matter has been discussed at exec and some consensus has been reached by the various officers.




4)
QUOTE: “It has been exposed to me that the website is going to undergo some drastic change…. It is obvious that there is fear of criticism on the part of some officers and deem it necessary to employ censorship.”


The clear implication from this is that the students union officers plan to remove the “open publishing” aspects of the site. This is untrue. The officers have decided to make substantial cosmetic changes to the website, while keeping the essential features of the current website, such as the ability to publish news, analysis etc. The purpose is to make the site look more welcoming and easier to navigate wile at the same time retaining all the characteristics of our site which lend openness and transparency to the union.




5)
QUOTE: “…All sabbatical wage increases have to be ratified by the independent appeals board if this was not done then sabbatical officers will be forced to pay back the extra money that they received.”


This is factually incorrect. It was decided in the academic year 2002/2003 by the Independent Appeals Board that increases to sabbatical officers’ wages would be linked either to national wage agreements or the rate of inflation, whichever of these was higher at the time. In Paul Dillon’s year, the exec decided not to take any increases for themselves. Last year, the students union decided to take a small increase.

This year, the union Financial Administrator calculated what the wages would be today based on the IAB’s decision in 02/03, and from this calculation made an increase to the Sabbatical Officers’ wages.




6)
QUOTE: “Each sabbatical officer recently received five new t-shirts and two jumpers with their name embroidered on it…. conservative estimates puts the bill for this clothing in the region of €600-€1000 of yes your money.”


This is also a complete falsehood. The t-shirts and jumpers did not cost between 600 and 1000 euro. Could the author please tell us who supplied these “conservative estimates”?

The T-shirts, far from being “purely an effort to make certain people feel self-important” are an effort to drastically improve recognition rates of the sabbatical officers, which were very low last year. It has not been decided when and how often they will be used yet, but it is likely that they will be used during registration days and other times when students need to be clearly able to tell their elected officers apart form other students.




7)
QUOTE: “Not only that but it seems the tight restriction on mobile phone bills that was implemented by Dillon and Scully has disappeared and the whole cost of the sabbatical mobile phone bills is covered by you.”


Also factually inaccurate. The Welfare Officer Dan Hayden worked in a phone shop which dealt in the services of all three of Irelands mobile providers and in light of his experience he volunteered to take care of ensuring the union got the very best phone deal.

In this he succeeded- giving the union an average 35% more call time than they had last year at less cost. The new phone deal ensured that officers ( such as the Ents officer) who needed to use more mobile phone time were not penalised as the minutes were taken from a central pool which is carefully monitored to prevent abuse. Any charge over the number of minutes paid for by the union are paid for by the officer responsible.




8)
QUOTE: “Finally I was informed that your new sabbatical officers will now have lovely new business cards to match their beautiful new sweaters. (Cost of this unknown)”


Untrue. The Students Union PA was asked to get a cost for business cards, Indeed, for a welfare officer handling casework to have to resort to writing their details on rolodex cards neither garners trust nor a sense of professionalism- characteristics important to the work of all the sabbats. Many other unions use business cards and we consulted with them on their usefulness- the feedback was unanimously positive- it is likely some sabbats will pursue this. Indeed, it is hardly a surprise that many people who work with people have business cards. It is because they work.




9)
QUOTE: “It is quite possible that they [student accommodation] may not be ready in time for incoming UCD students.”


Factually incorrect. This is simply wrong. We requested the apartments, the accommodation office was delighted to help us. Seeing that all parties paid for their accommodation, why would this not be the case?




10)
QUOTE: “They were even wined and dined in our student bar courtesy of you and you even paid for their bowling and quasar down in stillorgan last Friday night.”


This is factually incorrect. There was no alcohol paid for by UCDSU, nor did UCDSU pay for the bowling or quazar. All that was paid for was one meal on the Saturday. This was done out of courtesy and goodwill towards the democratically elected union officers from around the country.




11)
QUOTE: “The really scandalous thing is when I popped my head into the national council most of them had left for home before any business was conducted. All they were here for was the junket.”


On the day before National Council there was a full day of training, which went on until about 9 O’clock in the evening. This was an entire day of training, and was the primary reason for the officers from other colleges traveling to Dublin. In fact, many union officers attended training modules that they were not required to.

Much of what happened on Saturday was voting on elections to various committees and positions in USI. Since it was one vote per college, all that was necessary for the voting was one person from each college to be there. So for several hours of the National Council meeting there was no need for many people to be there at all.

Furthermore, while some officers from other colleges did leave before the end of council and thus missed the officers’ reports section, it should be remembered that this was held on a SATURDAY. For people traveling back to Cork or Galway on a Saturday morning, that was most of their day gone, and they had just spent pretty much an entire day at training modules on Friday. They would only get back late Saturday afternoon which meant that much of their weekends was spent at this USI event.

Based on these clarifications, the five sabbatical officers request the author to retract his claims. Please in the future when attempting “positive criticism”, base your arguments on fact, not fiction.






Signed,
Dave Curran, SU Deputy President,
Dan Hayden, SU Welfare Officer,
Anthony Kelly, SU Ents Officer,
Jane Horgan-Jones, SU Education Officer,
James Carroll, SU President.

by Watching for cover-ups Wed Aug 17, 2005 22:49

There have been several comments deleted and others edited on this thread on the UCDSU website looks like some people are getting nervous......
The truth will out...

by Niall Dolan Wed Aug 17, 2005 22:50

In the name of openness and transparency for the union, I have just a few queries and several comments.

Did the exec of 2005/2006 decide to take the wage increase on board, with the stated prior advice of the IAB or did it just happen due to the judgement of other “officials”?

How much did the UCDSU leisurewear actually cost?

What is the present limit for each of the Sabbaths phone bill before they have to start paying for their own respective charges? Possibly a list of expenditure since July would be cohesive to the whole ethos of union democracy.

The potential cost of the “unanimously positive” business card venture?

I was present at the USI National Council myself. The lack of questions from the floor in relation to key student issues like the threat of the re-introduction of fees, the horrific grant system, the under funded BTEA, the lack of childcare facilities was shocking to say the least. Your reflections relevant Sabbaths?

To conclude, education is one of the best ways of breaking down inequality in society – what’s more it is a basic human right. At the moment, not only in Ireland, governments are coercing it with the assistance of third parties. We need a strong student movement to work in solidarity against this injustice. Since returning to Ireland last week, I have seen and heard some rather disheartening things. My comrades and I are not going to stand for this.

by Enda Duffy Wed Aug 17, 2005 22:50

1 “The first factual inaccuracy of this article is in the title. In this year’s union there have been no cover ups”
I will not retract my article I am entitled to my opinion and should not have to waste my time doing your dirty work. All of these things should have appeared in the report of the SU president, which we have not received even though he has been in office six weeks, including the wage increase. Cover-ups obviously happened. James’s report has not been released yet and also the minutes of the exec have not been published. It’s not the IRA army council lads it’s apparently an open and democratic meeting.

2 “the amount of money going to be spent on this website is substantially less than was spent on the website the year before last.”

No Union money should be spent on a perfectly good site. This site has been proven to work.

3“This matter has been discussed at exec and some consensus has been reached by the various officers.”

If it is to be changed why not leave it up to council and let the representative body decide with over 100 members and not 9 executive officers sitting in a room.

3 Unlike some I have no problem admitting when I am wrong and if wage increase was issued by the IAB then I retract that statement but I would like some proof first perhaps the minutes of the meeting. Your word is only as good as mine.

4 “This is also a complete falsehood. The t-shirts and jumpers did not cost between 600 and 1000 euro.”

Ok if the jumpers did not cost that much then how much did they cost? The students of UCD kitted you out with five new T-shirts and two jumpers they have a right to know. The invoice from the company should suffice

4 “In this he succeeded- giving the union an average 35% more call time than they had last year at less cost.”

If that is the true regarding mobile phone bills then how much is it costing and so far how much has each sabbatical officer contributed to their bill?

5 “it is likely some sabbats will pursue this. Indeed, it is hardly a surprise that many people who work with people have business cards”

Sorry I thought the business cards were a joke. I am entitled to my opinion and I believe none of you are entitled to spend students money on some self-righteous business card when post-its do the job considering the have worked for every other administration why wont they work for you. If you really want to feel important then pay for them yourselves. It’s a Students union not KPMG.

“All that was paid for was one meal on the Saturday.”

They get paid enough money to pay for there own dinner, so do you. Its complete hypocrisy that the average student has to pay for there own dinner when sabbatical officers getting €330 a week plus expenses get a free lunch. How much does 40 dinners cost anyway?

“On the day before National Council there was a full day of training, which went on until about 9 O’clock in the evening”

Training should have been provided at UOS that’s why we paid €3000 for it. National council is important and it is the duty of every sabbatical officer to be they’re considering their views and the views of the student body should be represented its not about the vote its about input that’s activism.

On a further note I’m glad to see that it took five sabbatical officers a day to write a response and it only took me half an hour to write this reply. Glad to see some work is getting done? Please refrain from that condescending attitude you are attempting to use. I also know enough facts regarding this union and I am entitled to voice my dissent. I would also like to question the truth regarding all five sabbatical officers putting their signatories to the aforementioned response. You attempt to put forward a ‘team’ response is pathetic.

by Mark Thu Aug 18, 2005 01:15 sparxz at utvinternet dot com

I used to hold a sabatical position of Deputy President in one of the North's Student Unions.

The wages were crap. But `my', did we party on expenses !
Loads of naive young girls to take advantage of; free drink, and constant easy access to drugs.

Effective agenda. Self gratification came first, students came last.
But once you remembered the Mantras about "Student rights", Abolish student fees", the sacrifice of `ones' year to help "poor students". You could maintain a "New Labor/Tony Bair" socialist utopia effect, and keep it going.

Most people who get involved in student politics, are escaping something: Their course, career choice/commitment, adulthood/responsibility, consequence, reality, induluging in fantasy politics, etc.

I was once upon a time, one of them !!

Do Student's Union Officers a great act of charity/favor.
Smile, and don't take them seriously !
Some day they have to face, the adult world. After many years, of ranting and delusions, it "will" be painful.

This hedonistic, immoral, selfish, deluded, life/outlook, comes back to haunt.

by tekke Thu Aug 18, 2005 01:35

can be rescued and archived with the history function on browser on any pc where pages were viewed in the past

majik

by sickroleftandright Thu Aug 18, 2005 06:04

Where is the link to the hidden comments list, coudln't find it?

ucdsu doesn't have a http://www.indymedia.ie/mailinglists.php page

by Noel Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:08

I was an SU officer a few years ago, and I can't recognise anything in the description by "mark" of Student Politics. Maybe it's just because you're a waster? Who knows.

As for bitching about a few sodding tee shirts and business cards, get a fecking life. Useless whiner. Every SU officer I ever knew had business cards.

Go and complain about something worthwhile.

by Dalton, G Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:09

Back in the late 80s, early 90s, the wages of the Union officers for the following year were always set by the council meeting just prior to the elections.

Thus you had a situation where every candidate who was a council member had to vote against the wage increases while they hoped to christ they had enough friends at the meeting to approve the increment.

Delighted to see that students still take student politics so personally and so seriously, keep it up.

by Paul Dillon Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:42

This is a really good archive that indymedia has put on the site of UCD activity. Obviously it is not something that will intetest everyone, but in terms of geting decent student activism going in Ireland, it can help spread the word about what can be done if you put your mind to it. Theres a lot of important bits and pieces about what went on not up, but thats up to those who were involved to add what is relevant.

About this current debate-using web forums is obviously a good way of debating and holding others to account. But the battle will be won on the ground and time and energy needs to be refocused on tapping into the many areas of concern for students, and working both outside and inside the union to adress them.

by Chris Bond Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:56

This thread was not posted for making accusations for the sake of, nor was it posted to settle any personal or political scores, this is about concern for the students union and for the people for who it represents. So far the officers of the union with 2 notable exceptions have gone about their business completely behind closed doors. This is neither healthy for democracy nor accountability. The fact that information regarding the website and the cost of expenses to the union at USI national council is only being made available on demand does beg the question, are our officers up to something that the don’t want their subscribed UCDSU members to know about?. When an exec meeting takes place, we are entitled to know every item that was discussed in that meeting. One or more officers not liking the way in which what they said was minuted or wanting to conceal what they said in that meeting should not be an obstacle to making these minutes available to the students of UCD which they are paid and elected to represent. The process whereby minutes have to be ‘’approved’’ by exec members before they are posted up is a sham and has its roots to making exec a closed shop. So far officer reports from Dan Hayden, Jane Horgan-Jones, and David Curran have only been available on site, however we are yet to receive reports from President James Carroll or Entertainments officer Anthony Kelly.

I see no reason to change our website, contrary to the claims of Adam Egan the fact that this site looks like Indymedia has nothing to do with politics rather to do with the fact that the open publishing software which is used by Indymedia allows for maximum input into this site by union members. I reject your claims that this site is not a resource for information for students, all one has to do is look at the various threads concerning issues like grants, fees cutbacks and access, with many contributors offering great analysis’s and solutions to such issues .I ask you how much information on such issues was contained on the site that you designed. I honestly don’t understand your idea that the current website is somehow inherently biased. Judging by the Shenanigans that are going on at the moment the president in planning to change the website before the next council is even elected is trying to pull a fast one behind our back.

by UCD Student Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:57

"We could, for example have ignored all your comments here God knows we have better and more important things to do."
Says it all really.
No accountability,or sense of responsibility to the students.Endas posts have not in fact contradicted themselves in the least,I now know a hell of a lot more about what my elected representatives have been getting up to on my behalf since they took over from the last crowd.


"We do everything we do in the most open manner possible"
Doesnt seem to be the case,considering all these questionable usages of my registration fee have only just been brought to light,how about actually using the website to regularly post up what the students deserve to know.instead of just labelling it the same as indymedia.

As for Business Cards,get a grip of yourselves,what is this American Psycho??Thats such a waste of money,they'll all be lost or put into joints as roaches within 24 hrs of being disributed and the average student will just think you are a bunch of self-important twats!

by d'other Thu Aug 18, 2005 13:28

Thats what the "add comments" function is for Paul. If you think somethings were left out of the chronology, paste in links here yourself.

by Paul Thu Aug 18, 2005 13:47

"Thats what the "add comments" function is for Paul. If you think somethings were left out of the chronology, paste in links here yourself"

Yep thats what I meant when I said:

"Theres a lot of important bits and pieces about what went on not up, but thats up to those who were involved to add what is relevant." and I include everyone that was innvolved in that including myself.

by Enda Duffy Thu Aug 18, 2005 14:29

I stand by what I said until some one proves me wrong i will not retract anything. I would not have to post this if the president's reports were provided and minutes posted in the first place Then there would be no inaccuracies and unbalanced one-sided opinions. If it continues I will post the presidents report for him along with the minuets of the exec or rather what I perceive them to be.

I will tell you hear and now that I will be proposing a motion to the first council the web site be left the way it is. You now know my intentions so answer me this, are you still going to waste money on the site when there is a good chance that council will force you to change it back?

I still have not received answers on the following questions and I want answers and the truth, why cover them up what is there to hide?

1 If the clothing did not cost between €600-€1000 then how much did they cost? I want proof

2 So far how much as each officer paid towards his or her own phone bill?

3 James did you or did you not pick up the tab for quasar and bowling last Friday?

4 How much is going to be spent on this site anyway?

5 James why have you not put up any report as of yet?

6 On what grounds did Patrick McKay hide this thread last Tuesday night?

7 James why have you refused to allow the minutes of exec to be posted up here what’s hidden in them that we are not aloud see?

8 are you seriously going to spend €540 on business cards or do you want a number for a good psychiatrist?


Simple answers please yes or no, end the cover-ups and don’t just give me a patronising rehash of everything I have already stated in more colourful friendly language. I want transparency accountability and democracy. Don’t try and bully me I am entitled to voice my concerns and dissent, five sabbatical officers signing a response stinks of authority and the imposition of rules from above. You are attempting to use your position to influence people but as you can see from this thread the readers agree with me. As a wise man once told me Authority should be enforced from the bottom up. I am just one of your many employers never forget that.

by Ex Australian Libertarian Poolist Thu Aug 18, 2005 14:30

Go on Dillo!We all know you know.......

by Dalton, G Thu Aug 18, 2005 16:04

i'm lovin this.
THe SU officers were presumeably all democratically elected by the students who bothered to vote. It takes the summer for the officers to 'read' themselves into position and to organise the work for the rest of the year.
The union has always been filled with self appointed 'watchmen' and this year, just as in years before, those who had the gumption to stand for election should tell these gits to get stuffed and if they don't like it to stand for election themselves.

As for calls for 'proof' - who cares about the cost of a few t-shirts, you've got very little to be worried about, but please continue the thread its giving me, and many others, a good nostalgic giggle.

by Bonzo Thu Aug 18, 2005 16:22

lads must be a slow news week for this to get on as a featured story.

And please the debate is nowhere centered around the use of oscailt (how self centred of you all on the imc ed group) it is about the actions of officers etc...

by imcer Thu Aug 18, 2005 16:46

write a better story - propose as a feature

or

pick a better story from newswire and propose as feature

better than kicking from sidelines

or would that be too much like taking responsibility for your own consumption?

and why shouldn't imc irl pick up on story with an oscailt link as in?

it's good software, it's free and imc irl made it
http://www.indymedia.ie/oscailt/

ucd is biggest uni in ireland so this is news

by bonzo Thu Aug 18, 2005 17:15

I'm the one responsible for the ucd webpage being oscailt so i'm not really kicking from the sidelines but thats my fault for being anon (not any more) .

The point is that your headline is wrong. We're not debating oscailt or our webpage. It has been mentioned as a small part of a wider debate going on about among other things sabbat wages, expenses, t shirts, reports of meetings etc.... In fact the current UCDSU exec have committed to a web page with an open news wire they just want to give it a makeover to make it easier for students to find out the other info they need. I for one support that.

So forgive me for thinking its a slow news week i just didn't think anyone would be interested in the internal wranglings of our union.

your headline should read students have a go at union president or president urged to be more accountable or union cover up.

Stating its a debate about oscailt is very misleading and self serving

by Oscailt Fan Thu Aug 18, 2005 18:42

I think the feature is fine. Oscailt was created by Indymedia Tech Heads, and its very healty to see them pointing to criticisms of the system on their own site when so many people view it as incredibly biased. The feature picks up on parts of the debate specific to the development of and use of open publising software like Oscailt on other sites, but moves on to provide context to the rest of the debate. Both original parties to the debate were given equal space. The chronology of UCD is also interesting. But it does seem like a slow news week, so write something! An education feature on the Leaving Cert would be the place to be at, sure you need someone to write that don't ya? One must make do with the material one gets.

by Niall Dolan Thu Aug 18, 2005 18:53

“As I explained, years ago it was decided by the IAB that rather than sabbats being able to increase their pay, only the IAB can increase it. (The reason for this was so that pay increases could not become political football -and I can see why now)”
UCDSU PR team, I wanted to know did the exec of this year have a similar discussion like the 2003/2004 exec and the 2004/2005 union in direct relation to the IAB decision. To allude to your previous statement (One that should not have to be made if the bureaucratic material had being made public) “In Paul Dillon’s year, the exec decided not to take any increases for themselves. Last year, the students union decided to take a small increase” – I just thought that a democratic decision might have occurred, as such.

“They’re not for leisurewear Niall. I don’t know about you, but I don’t walk around on the weekends with my name embroidered on my top. I don’t actually know the cost myself to be honest. Ask someone else.”
The answer to this question has being dodged around in the past 2 days. No need to dwell on the failing on my part in not addressing the item of clothing purchased by the union effectively. I did not use the term “leisurewear” in a pejorative context, which I feel one may have conceptualised. Still waiting for a numerical response.

“Ask someone else.” Why don’t you and your other sabbat team ask your president to enter in to any apt public forum and answer the questions that have being repeatedly proposed. Dave, you’re a good activist for justice, don’t fob me off with that negative response – authority in any union and equitable organisation comes from the bottom up. People should attempt to be more consistently conscious of that. I feel that an ideal sabbat uses his/her prerogative whilst in office simultaneously to the initial demands of the student body.

Transparency and accountability has to be improved dramatically and without any personal qualms from any union affiliate. The online update of all council, exec and officer report details should nearly be delegated to one of the staff officers.

I have no problem discussing any issue with the sabbat team of 05/06 or anyone else for that matter. You will see me down in your corridor regularly. Some specific union sabbats would want to get off their high horse.

by bonzofan Thu Aug 18, 2005 20:01

there is none to the left or to the right, in RL or online in UCD

so where are the hidden comments listed...

by UCD Postgraduate Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:56

This is just not an issue for activists to consider. Why the hell is it given such prominance on this site. Pathetic! Indymedia is just plain crap and irrelevant if it is giving great prominance to a minor dispute within the hack Labour party in UCD.

by Sherlock Holmes Fri Aug 19, 2005 14:08

How the hell did you get a degree with a stupid comment like that. Indymedia is an open publishing site if you want to write an article you can publish it here, if people don't want to read it they don't. If people want to comment on it then they can. Instead you have come on saying that this site is irrelevant. This site gets hundreds of thousands of visitors, nothing you ever do in life will have a bigger impact than this site. But now back to the question, how did you get that degree?

by UCD Postgraduate Fri Aug 19, 2005 16:07

The real world does not care about what website UCDSU has! I do think that an open website should be retained by the SU. But there are far more bigger issues in education and in society in general. What about the threat of fees? what about cuts in education budgets? What about the right-wing 'restructuring' and 'reform' in UCD? If the Editorial group had any link with the real world they would not make this posting big news and in a prominat position. It just shows that Indymedia is getting irrelevant when the best they can do is this hack/internal-UCDLabour dispute.

by Early school leaver Fri Aug 19, 2005 16:19

I doubt if you are a "UCD Postgraduate". I would have thought that someone with that level of education would be able to spell properly.

by Badman Fri Aug 19, 2005 16:43

The man who has dedicated his life, with an obsessive and dedicated passion, to convincing the world that indymedia is irrelevant. (ie he's a raving loonie).

by Sherlock Holmes Fri Aug 19, 2005 16:58

A raving loonie and also a shockingly dumb person who cannot grasp even the most basic concept.

by Enda Fri Aug 19, 2005 20:15

Get you facts right Postgrad this has nothing to do with labour perhaps you should read the thread and find out what it is about or maybe even right an article on the hike in postgraduate fees in UCD be productive my friend and please don’t choke on that silver spoon.

Cheers Indymedia this is a great archive to have, hopefully we will keep the stories coming all year.

by A different UCD Postgrad Sat Aug 20, 2005 23:06

A UCD postgrad came on here to give his oppinion and all that has happened is that his spelling has been insulted and someone told him not to choke on a silver spoon.

I understand that this is an open site that anyone can comment on but there is a basic lack of manners here.

by myotherme Sun Aug 21, 2005 00:13

stop trolling tonere

by Long time reader Sun Aug 21, 2005 00:45

Different UCD Postgrad,

It seems that other commentators have decided that the post from UCD Postgraduate is actually from Toneore - a strange character who for over a year has been obsessed with disrupting this site and abusing almost everyone who posts to the site. I'd have to agree that it's a fair possibilty.

by A different Postgrad Sun Aug 21, 2005 16:18

Long time reader,
Thanks. Sorry if I misread what was going on. I'm not a regular visitor to this site.

My opinion on the main issue, for what it's worth, is that I have no problem with the expences mentioned above. If a person from USI comes to help the new SU people with training or whatever it's only polite to pay for his dinner and bowling. Similarly I've no problem with t-shirts or business cards, these seem like reasonable expences.

My main issue with the SU is the ammount of argueing that goes on in public. I was a class rep back when I was an undergrad but I gave up going to council meetings because it was impossible to discuss anything there. The meetings would often degenerate into someone from Fianna Fail having a shouting match with one or other of the socialists.

I, like nearly all UCD students, have no interest in party politics at SU level. I don't know any of the personalities involved in this row so I don't know wheather it's split anong political lines or not but I look on it as being a symptom of the same problem. Any ordinary (non political) student will be put off getting involved in the SU as long as such venemous rows are held in public over such relativley minor issues as the cost of t-shirts or business cards.

by UCD Postgraduate Sun Aug 21, 2005 17:17

I am a postgraduate in UCD. I am sick of crap hack issues being covered instead of the real issues such as cuts in the university budget, the freeze on staff appointments, the hikes in fees and charges, the 'reforms' of the government etc. These are the issues not internal hack arguments. I resent Enda Duffy's 'silver spoon' remark. This argument follows the line that all students are an elite with rich parents. In my case and in the case of many postgraduates I know this is not their situation. We have to struggle with crap money just like undergrads. Enda is playing into the hands of those that wish to divide students. Glad I didn't vote for RON in the Deputy President election!

by UCD Postgraduate Sun Aug 21, 2005 17:22

CORRECTION
That should be "Glad I did vote RON"

by Kellywatch Sun Aug 21, 2005 18:31

When are the twins going to get over their childish obsession with the Labour Party? This row, whatever its value, have nothing to do with the Labour party. Calling it an "internal UCD Labour squabble" just shows how obsessed you are with Labour Youth. There are other things in the world, Oisin/Finghin, honestly

by kissmyliathroidi Sun Aug 21, 2005 21:58

Poor enda has lost his election and regardless of what he pre-emptively says it is sour grapes...
affliation to USI may be the figure he quotes but that is a mere €5 per student (if ucd had ten students their fee would be accordingly small - but would still get the same service)...

you see muppets like this lad only see the interest of UCD students because of their own selfish little ends - more carreerists - some of the best political minds in the country have occupied USI positions i.e. Mark Durkan, Pat Rabbitte to name but two 'lefties' and so what if it furthers their career - what else is college for? - as long as they are doing their jobs...
pay no mind to this muppet - he spends his free time thinking of things to complain .... the ultimate hack...

In regards to USI - a minister meeting one college president is nothing to meeting a usi president with 250,000 behind him...

by Chris Bond Sun Aug 21, 2005 22:26

I find it ludicrous that you are calling Enda a pussy, he is the one brave enough to bring up these very serious issues. , furthermore unlike yourself, every post that he has made has been under his own name

by Lefty Mon Aug 22, 2005 13:38

Pat Rabbitte and Mark Durkan lefties? You having a laugh!

by Brian - People's front of Judaea Mon Aug 22, 2005 14:53

Surely we should unite against the common enemy!

"THE JUDAEAN PEOPLE'S FRONT!!!!!"

No, the Romans!

by lickmyliathroidi Mon Aug 22, 2005 17:48

well like all 'lefties' Pat rabbitte has been through the workers party, democratic left and now labour (note how ye get less left wing as you move up the ladder - like sticky frank ross sorry - Proinnisois de rossa)...i can't wait for Joe higgins to turn...in regards to UCDSU they are the bane of USI anyway - 90% of every other union in the country thinks they're muppets and they only command less then 5% support on campus...(hopefully this year will be different and they ditch this left wing rubbish and focus on the needs of their students...

by Sherlock Holmes Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:20

What childish rubbish you spout. Turnout at election times is much higher than that. Whenever a UCD candidate runs for election in USI they also get more than 5%. You are inventing stats, talking crap, and sound like some bitter little FF or FG member who will leave college and be as ignored by everybody as they were in college.

by tallyman Mon Aug 22, 2005 18:52

Turnout in UCDSU is among the highest of all SUs. Candidates need c2500 votes to get elected. Turnout is about 4-5,000. Given that many students are not on campus on the given day, students can be away on work experiece, research work, and many have dropped out. I think UCDSU turnout is good, not as high as it's turnout in the past but still far higher than other SUs at the moment.

by Tossyerselfoffandstickaforkinyourownliathroidi Mon Aug 22, 2005 22:09

The usual eloquence and courage you'd expect from right-wing hacks in the student movement - a stupid pseudonym to go with your gormless rhetoric. Hmmm, if "90%" of USI despise UCD, how come your shower weren't even able to defeat a motion on the Coke boycott (apparently the definition of a "looney-left" issue for the sort of people who find Paddy Reilly charismatic) ?

Oh, and once more - my weren't you boys bitter about your constitution? That was a beautiful sight, really it was

by OOD Tue Aug 23, 2005 06:02

IADTSU used it for a year and dropped it because it was pretty useless. But i don't think this thread is really about that anymore. Just some info though.