Suicides in Ardoyne

by John Martin - irsp Sun Mar 07, 2004 20:27 johnmartinps at eircom dot net 392 Falls Road Belfast BT126DH

“VERY middle class jobs and income.”

“If people in the IRSP used as much energy seeking funding for youth projects or objecting to the fact that 16-17 year olds around here have NO income - their parents do not get a brass farthing towards their upkeep if they are not in full-time education or training - there would be a lot less crime and anti-social behaviour.
Of course, in spite of all the talk of people like me being middle-class for defending these young people's right not to be brutalised [I earn £13,500 a year and live in that middle-class paradise called Poleglass] the reality is that the so-called 'leaders' of the IRSP would not know what it means to be poor. Some of them have VERY middle class jobs and incomes and probably cannot imagine the stress faced by the families these young people come from.”

The above quote comes from Aine from Poleglass who has launched an attack on both the INLA and the IRSP on the indymedia website. Fair play to her. We ourselves have condemned the actions of the INLA in Ardoyne when necessary and make no apology for doing so. Shooting 14 year olds is wrong. But Aine, in her crude economistic attacks on “middle class leaders of the IRSP” is simply wrong. All but one of the elected members of the Ard-comhairle of the IRSP are from working class backgrounds. Two have been on the executives of their trade unions. Three have been imprisoned for their anti-imperialism. Two at least have been shot, two others have had attempts made on their lives. One participated in a number of hunger strikes. All live or work in working class areas and know exactly what life is like for the working class. Can the same be said of the leaders of the SWP with which Aine may be closely associated. The IRSP need no lessons from the do-gooders who take the high moral ground and condemn from afar while they get on with their social work.
The reality is that the young working class people need not youth projects, or micky mouse educational projects but jobs -real employment . They will not get that under capitalism. Join us Aine in fighting against an Imperialist system that creates the Ardoyne's of this world.
(JM}

by Maleview Fri Mar 05, 2004 22:59

The suicide of young males is not confined to working class districts of the North, it affects young men in all parts. Is anyone here prepared to consider the possibility that suicide among males is more likely related to the general indoctrination of young men into the culture of 'Machismo'? And that 'Machismo' exists outside and beyond Andytown, Ballymurphy, etc. And even beyond Ballymun, Clondalkin, or anywhere else in Dublin, or Ireland. Many of these deaths are also marked down as 'accidents'.
Suicide even happens in the more 'upmarket' districts, and in other parts of Europe.
What of the role which Hollywood plays in the distorted view of masculinity it portrays and promotes? Is this not a more relevant factor that the antics of a few paramilitaries?

by iosaf Fri Mar 05, 2004 17:12

The real exploitation of tragedy would mean _not lashing_ out at all those who played their part in the conflict. It is the closest to a real process of "truth and reconciliation" that the parents and children of conflict will ever see. Whether or not skrying from an ivory tower or a derelict site, the complexity of problem drug use and _psychosis_ (caused by more than one generation's conditioning to _acceptable levels of violence and abuse_ is not underestimated.
Repeat _not underestimated_
If communities "have the right and means to do" as you suggest, then they organise as communities and seek concensus.
& so far, they don't appear to have concensus. And they don't seem to have organised how to carry the process onwards as a real "proof", the peace of the streets where they live and where their grandchildren will maybe live. You will dis-occupy yourselves of this misery in a different way than you shall dis-occupy yourselves of the _war_.

by a working class youth Fri Mar 05, 2004 07:35

The suicides are a tragic thing. I know tragedy; I lost most of my friends growing up to drugs and violence.

It seems many are exploiting this as a chance to lash out at the INLA. Do you seriously argue that these working class communities don't have a right to defend themselves?

Why don't you critics go down there and "work with the kids" as you say. I'd love to see it.

The IRSP condemned the attack and were correct to do so. However you should climb down from the ivory tower before you start slinging insults and get a better view of these communities and their complexity.

by damo Sat Feb 28, 2004 18:07

"I have no probelm with working class youths who target, and rob the catholic/protestant rich in their quiet suburbs, and these youths should not suffer punishment beatings, for class consious criminal acts."

You obviously haven't had your head kicked in for no reason as a poor working class youth decides to take his anger out on you while walking down the street.

Fuck you.

by stikcing to my little point. Mon Feb 23, 2004 13:24

Haven't you noticed all those little hints and those little tell tale signs?
When was the last time you met new people and had the opportunity to say "oh i'm an INLA head, I represent sectarian murderers and bullies, I support breaking kids legs bercause they're doing drugs" and they looked into your eyes and smiled and said "oh thank you you're really one of us!".

There are times to stop. To stop being the armed defenders of your community, and learn how to live normally. Go on holidays, havea look at how other people live. & above all Talk and Listen to Your Kids. Their sins are paltry in comparison to the memories that you live under, but they are suffering as much as you the consequences of what occured in the north. Think it through.

by being really curious- - what was it all about? Mon Feb 23, 2004 13:13

Didn't any of you powerful men in the masks with the guns ever really think what Peace would mean to your children?
Didn't you cop on that your children would want to be like children everywhere else?
Didn't you realise that whilst you were locked in your boring squalid innefective little war your children were doing less drugs?
Didn't you realise peace means sex, means rock and roll, means repetitive beats not beatings and means the social problems that most of Europe are learning are not "anti-social" but not yet treated upon for what they are emergent social forms with allied health and justice problems.

hmmm. No you thought peace would mean ballads, whiskey, stout, porter and memorial services for your heroes.

Maybe you should learn to talk to your kids more.

oh how will we disoccupy ourselves of this misery and sadness?

by IRSP Mon Feb 23, 2004 07:21

North Belfast News
19 February 2004

The IRSP has issued a statement calling on the community sector and
statutory bodies to work together in order to resolve mounting
tensions in the Ardoyne area over the recent deaths of young men
through suicide.

Hitting back at media allegations that the INLA were solely
responsible for Anthony O'Neill & Bernard Cairns taking their own
lives, IRSP spokesman Paul Little said there were many factors which
contributed to their despair.

"These young men had fallen foul of the community and that is quite
obvious. The job is now to focus on not letting other young men in
similar circumstances slip through the hands of the community again.
We will continue to do work with all sections of the community during
this difficult time and we would like to assure the community that
the IRSP will not be exacerbating the situation in any way.

"However, we would like to issue an appeal to children and teenagers
in the area. We're asking those who are hell bent on engaging in anti-
social behaviour to please stop. Look at the destruction and hurt
you are bringing on other members of the community. If we had a
better structure and system to deal with this then other agencies
would not have to step in.

"There are many factors which have damaged this community's
infrastructure, not least the policing vacuum. At the moment we have
a discredited PSNI who are supposed to be one of the main statutory
bodies tackling this sort of crime.

"Instead of tackling the scourge of death driving and drugs, which
are being openly sold on our streets, they are arresting these youths
in cars and turning them into informers.

"The immense pressure alone of this is enough for anyone. We cannot
be complacent about this situation and it needs everyone's urgent
attention."

by IRSP Mon Feb 23, 2004 07:20

The Plough #27
20 February 2004

IRSP SLAM ALLIANCE SPOKESPERSON BELL FOR FACILITATING COVER UP OF
NEGLECT IN SUICIDE DEATHS

The IRSP have reacted angrily to comments made in a statement by
Alliance Party spokeswoman Eileen Bell, accusing her and her party of
using smoke and mirrors to deflect attention from the urgent need for
an inquiry into Mental Health resources in the North and the decision
process that lead to one of the dead being denied an acute bed in a
local hospital even though he told staff he would take his own life
if refused.

"'Pathetic and unconvincing,' I think was the phrase she used," IRSP
spokesman Terry Harkin said today. "I'll tell you what I find
pathetic and unconvincing, the fact that there are 13 and very
possibly 16 deaths across North Belfast and it takes the most tenuous
of links to an armed group in just two of the cases to make this an
issue of media interest."

"Why is this? There seems to be a certain amount of hand washing,
buck passing and diverting from the real issues going on. There are
13 dead in 6 weeks, that is a fact, the INLA seem to have acted
against two of these following pressure from the local community over
antisocial issues. What about the other 11? Are their deaths not
worthy of note? Do those deaths not point to a serious social problem
in the North of the city? Who was responsible for the decisions to
send young O'Neill home when he was plainly ill and in need of care?
And, when they sent him away was there any after care planed, was
there a care plan, a CPA meeting? What did the toxicology reports on
all 13 say, what was the role-if any-of drink and recreational drugs
in all this? Most importantly, why, when it is a statistical proven
fact and well known in the NHS that suicide is a cluster phenomena
were precautions not being taken and support being offered to the
friends and family of the deceased and just why is it Ms Bell and her
party not asking these questions?"

"These are questions that need answering," Mr Harkin said, "but don't
hold your breath, these are partly funding issues and the Alliance
among others had a chance to provide those funds when they
administered the Whitehall budget for the North through the Assembly.
They had the chance to press the British to implement change in the
as yet un reformed and overtly sectarian paramilitary police force.
Can Ms Bell and her colleges really believe that members of the
public in these communities would go to the armed groups if they had
access to an acceptable policing service? They need to grow up and
live in the real world with the rest of us, a world where a suicidal
young man can be sent home to die because there's no bed and
exasperated communities are forced to turn to armed revolutionaries
instead of the police for protection."

"This whole thing about the INLA is a diversion, smoke and mirrors to
divert attention from appalling lack of services or planning on the
part of the local Health Trust, the neglect into which the NHS has
fallen in the North having been raped for years to pay for tax cuts
for middle England. And then we have the fact that Ms Bell has a
colleague well placed to help with this issue, is the brother of a
certain Lord not only a party member but also a consulting
psychiatrist at the hospital that sent the O'Neill boy home to die?
These and the immediate provisions of funds to set up community
mental health services and provide more acute beds are the real
issues. But sure nobody's worried about that because it was all the
fault of the Irps and every thing else in the garden's, while not
quite rosy, good.

"The only people in this to play a straight hand of all the pro-
agreement parties is Sinn Fein. Fra McCann has worked for years to
expose the underlying trends of suicide in the North and Gerry Kelly
by his comments proved that at least one of the pro-agreement parties
know what needs to be done if Stormont is ever revived. Until that
time maybe Ms Bell and her party could spend their time trying to
press the British for more money for services and the reforms needed
to make policing acceptable to the indigenous population of the
island."

by Robert Mon Feb 23, 2004 00:22

The free local paper 'The Belfast News', points to unemployment, depression and drug problems as being responsible for the recent spate of suicides in Ardoyne, not soley paramilitaries.

During my late teenage years in the 1980s in North belfast, gluesniffing was widespread on a massive scale. My friend who was a trainee priest was a devoted gluesniffer, who would spend his spare time gluesniffing at the now demolished Masonic lodge beside the waterwork. Many others would have been gluesniffing for years.

Occasionally we would break into empty derelict houses on very cold nights to start a fire for a bit of warmth, more often the fire would get out of hand and spread to the adjacent property.

Others would take an illogical notion whilst high to brick all the windows of shop fronts in Newington. Many would spend their time wandering about the waterworks gluesniffing openly, like a phantom legion of the walking dead.

Its what you do, when you have no permanent employment or educational prospects, you're deeply depressed, bored, scared and living in the dangerous turmoil and upheaval of riot torn, murder triangle of north belfast.

Glue was our drug of choice due to it being cheap and relatively easy to obtain, though its mental and physical effects were devastating, in terms of mental confusion, erractic behaviour, blackouts, sudden death and brain damage.

If things were bad back in the 1980s you can imagine what they are like, now in North belfast, and the greater danger and temptation to young people posed by the easy availablity of a wider range of drugs nowadays, coupled with the lack of job, recreational, and educational prospects, and an increasingly isolated, uncaring, materialistic, consumeristic and competitive surrounding society.

by geraldine Sun Feb 22, 2004 23:23

Those dealt with by paramilitaries are not saddled or branded/labelled with stigmatising criminal records which obstruct their chance of gaining legal employment.

In the case of youngsters/teenagers, it would be better for paramilitaries to not touch young people but give their parents a simple beating, in order that in future their parents will take effective action to restrain the anti social behaviour of their children.

There is no point running and squealing to peelers, to nursemaid the working class community, as pensioners in protestant areas of East belfast believe.

East belfast UUP councillor Jim Rodgers, has reported his elderly constituents have no faith in the PSNI, and turn to loyalist paramilitaries to tackle young offenders and crimes against the vunerable elderly.

The facts of the matter are paramilitaries are not responsible for the socioeconomic conditions which drive deprived, bored youngsters to crime.

In our case the british government, its tight fisted social policies and current unequal education system is responsible for the socioeconomic desolation,depression and grinding poverty gripping the young people in working class communities.

The IRSP and other political spokesgroups are continually lobbying the government, to no avail with regard to funding for community groups, recreational facilities for deprived youngsters.

The boxer Barry McGuigan has recommended bored, depressed youngsters to fight back through taking up boxing etc easier said than done. There are no day recreational facilities, for bored, depressed young people . At the moment, martial arts/boxing/sports activities, are generally held at night time, at leisure centres which cost money to attend in terms of training fees, travel, insurance fees, sports wear and these activities are generally targeted at those who are employed and have money.

Community centres offer a limited range of physical activities and sports, due to lack of funding for equipment, facilities, and instructors.

The Pro kick gym in east belfast is a privately run kick boxing gym, and those who want to attend have to dig deep into their pockets to pay for travel, insurance, etc. So the unemployed and poor are effectively excluded from participating and experiencing the mental and physical benefits offered by sport activities.

Working class catholic areas of north belfast are not served by a leisure centre, catholics must attend the Valley, York rd or private facilities at a cost in terms of travel and anxiety about personal safety.

by observer Sun Feb 22, 2004 17:16

What you say is nonsense. An excuse for scum preying off their neighbours. As for all that crap about fostering class consciousness.... that should be treated with the same contempt as if someone said you could solve the problem by converting people to Scientology or have them get involved in yogic flying.

by Bill Sun Feb 22, 2004 16:24

You may remember that the good doctor sold his soul and later reneged. Now, he describes 'community' only in terms of punishment.

Community also nurtures.

Except for Aine, no community or individual (including Her Royal Highness in London) involved in this sorry mess, has fulfilled or even acknowledged their duty to nurture.

by .. Sun Feb 22, 2004 09:12

The British Ministry of Defence (Ivor Caplin, the defence minister) has disclosed that Seven soldiers have died after apparently committing suicide since the end of the Iraq war and 119 have been evacuated from the Gulf because of severe psychiatric problems.

Dr Walter Busuttil, consultant psychiatrist , said that suicide figures in the years following modern conflicts were often higher than the casualties sustained during the action.

by me Sat Feb 21, 2004 19:05

the problem with "social exclusion" (or whatever) is that disaffected people (not always young people) who find themselves in long term dire economic circumstances, and decide that they must rob in order to make ends meet, will more than likely rob from someone who they see as being just one rung above them on the socio-economic ladder.
the reason is quite simple: it's much easier to rob from a working class home or mug a pensioner than to break into a bourgeois home or business, because the bourgeoisie can afford to (and do) spend a lot of money protecting their businesses and homes.
muggings are generally opportunist.
it takes a lot of planning, tools, teamwork, etc to break into an alarmed building, or hold up a business and get away.
petty crime is a survival tactic adopted by desparate people, and by necessity, their targets must be soft.
punishment beatings will not prevent such activities, because they miss the point.
there is no point in trying to make an example out of people, and using this to propagandise for community safety. attempts to stamp out anti-social behaviour in this way is more likely to cause a reaction against such tactics and make the problem worse.
the only solution is to tackle the problem at a more fundamental level. real community activists would be trying to galvanise a sense of class consciousness among the people of a community. in order to build community solidarity, there must be some avenue for people to come together to fight for the facilities needed in their communities. without such an avenue - a real campaign that people have a real stake in, not a shallow front for some opportunist political careerist(s) - people feel cut off, and lose hope for change.
the problem with punishment beatings is that the people who carry them out and support them have no understanding of class consciousness, have themselves no sense of community solidarity, and are trying to impose their narrow view of their vision of society on a community.
while a punishment beating may have a short term impact, because the underlying problem is not being tackled it eventually resurfaces, often with increased intensity.
the viscious circle is perpetuated.

by io Sat Feb 21, 2004 14:20

The ETA "catalonia truce" announced last week, has been filling the pages and conversations in both Catalan and Spanish newspapers, it is now called "the ETA truce bomb" because it's tone and direction has been so shocking and divisive to catalan national sensibilities. So everyday more pages are written pushing the international filler articles to the minimum.

Yesterday "suicide in northern ireland" was the counterpoint article in two page spreads in both El Pais (readership approx 2.5million) and La vanguardia (readership 650,000). It certainly was an odd counterpoint I think the message they tried to give was "compare ourselves to peaceful ireland, they're being intimidated into killing themselves".

by observer Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:26

Interesting Dr. Faustus. However, the problem is not of tortured individualists seeking to escape an oppressive "community" but of gangs of feral youth who impose themselves on their neighbours. It is they who are the oppressors. It is they who impose the fear and the constraints. Life in working class Belfast (whatever side of the political divide) is bad enough. It is made far worse by the behaviour of the gangs. And the same can be said of Dublin or Limerick or Liverpool. It is often percieved to be the main problem facing working class people and is one that is far more tangible than their alienation or oppression in a capitalist society.

by Dr. Faustus Sat Feb 21, 2004 08:10

It strikes me as odd that amid the clamour of comments, some sage and some not so sage, none expresses the desire that the state, by whose laws we are bound in equal measure, and to which we have no choice but to pay taxes, should provide an institution worthy of the name 'police' to bring before the courts of law those suspected of breaking the law.

Such an instituion, together with those others which form the administration of legal justice in any normal liberal democracy are surely the most fundamental of a citizen's rights. They are nothing more than the protection of our liberty. What is the point of voting, or debating, or legislating or anything else if the resulting laws count for nothing? And how can they but count for nothing when we do not even have a police force? Have those who live here fallen into such darkness that their imagination can no longer encompass even the vision of liberty?

Could it be that the principal way in which the PSNI (I will not call them police) let us down now, is not so much in anything they do as in what they don't do? What if I live in one of these areas and I do not feel myself part of the community, about which we hear so much. What if I feel like maybe not getting knee-capped today, thankyou? What if I, albeit I alone, would like to excercise my right as a citizen to the protection of my liberty by the state? Am I not at least entitled to a rebate on my VAT? And does the same not hold for the victims of any crime, car theft or otherwise?

Of course, you will laugh that I would even suggest such a thing. Everybody knows the PSNI don't go there. We live under a de facto tripartite territorial division by the PSNI, the INLA and the UDA. There seems to be a unanimous agreement by all parties, including a tacit silence from those in authority, that these problems, the suicides and their cause, are a matter for "the community."

My hunch is that Ireland overall is too attached to community. Community requires a shared sense of identity and a set of informal rules and rituals. It also requires the chilling effect of isolation on those who disobey. It requires the notion of the outsider with whom everyone can agree to disidentify. It requires a scapegoat. In the end, it stands opposed to the idea of individual liberty and there can be very few communities which do not depend for their success on some degree of exclusion. For the untouchables, the dark side of a strong community can quickly become unfettered and unremitting brutality. There can be few places of which this is more true than Ireland, where attachment to community and to shared identity, and intolerance of 'the other' run so high.

We hear from these suicides that they felt trapped. I can well imagine. But inside what did they feel trapped? Is there an impenetrable wall surrounding the Ardoyne? A few paces down the road and they are somewhere else. Somewhere else to get beaten up because they don't belong, perhaps. And nowhere to enjoy their liberty to simply live.

But this liberty is what most people in the western world take for granted. I just think it might be time to ask, Do we perhaps have too much community?

by Considerthismywrittennotice Sat Feb 21, 2004 04:57

"Rich kids are all stupid. The 11+ is a rigged conspiracy. Poor kids are smart but the British deliberately keep them in run down secondary schools. No protestant can be smart and poor. Anyone who says different is a liar actively, deliberately perpetuating a myth working for the British disinformation bourgeois. Me and my five mates think that so statistically, that makes 93.44488882222% in our favour ..”

“Some poor kids are scum due to nature and nurture, so they deserve to be brutalised, exiled or killed. By themselves or others. We need paramilitaries to keep us safe, mop up our shite and it's a kinder punishment than the evil law courts system. Unless the scum kids are robbing the rich old ladies, since they deserve what’s coming, then they shouldn’t be punished…."

Revenge & domination. So Left it's just....extreme Right?

by observer Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:45

But if that's what they think of anti-social elements then they have risen in my estimation. I would hazard a guess that neither of you actually live in an area that is beset by these scum. If you did you might not hold such a naive view of either them or human nature. "Born bad"? Yes, I reckon some people are. Others become bad. Anyway, that's hardly the point. You don't discuss genetics v environment with a rat or a cockroach.

As for your sad references to the BNP and gas chambers. Where do you think the scum that make up the rank and file of fascist organsiations come from? Portora?, Blackrock? Eton?

by northsider Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:35

WCA are vigilantes who like their 'law and order'. They are a dangerous groups and other groups and parties should be very reluctant before backing them in the local elections.

by Observing observer Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:33

Obviously a WCA member/supporter. (Although probably won't admit it as the WCA are going through their now you see, now you don't for the local elections.) Stunning insight.

Your analysis of how to deal with law and order issues doesn't seem that removed from your foes the BNP. Off to the gas chambers with the little delinquents, they were born bad.

by observer Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:22

As someone who lives on a working class estate, I find the proposition that those who carry out anti-social activities and their victims are on a par. What nonsense.

The scum who steal cars and drive them around at high speeds, often injuring and sometime killing people and ALWYS making their neighbours lives a misery are not victims. They are criminals and should be treated as such. Is the old woman they mug on the way home from the shops their oppressor? Are they both suffering equally?

Only a minority of working class youth behave in this way and they should be punished for it. If the state doesnt do it you can hardly blame others for doing it. And forget all that crap about rehabilitation. The only thing the victims of such scum are interested in is that they are taken away from them. Bet there lots of people quite happy that certain people took their own lives.

by Aine Fri Feb 20, 2004 18:14 Belfast

The young people involved in anti-social (not always criminal) behaviour are victims as well as the people affected by their behaviour. All are victims but surely the question is not who is the most worthy victim but how to stop young people engaging in this kind of unacceptable behaviour? Contrary to what has been said on this thread, there is NO evidence (apart from what we hear from apologists for punishment beatings) that working class communities WANT such attacks on their young people. I work with young people through a community group in a working class part of Catholic West Belfast and, honestly, people do want something done but ALL of them want something positive that will stop the young people getting in trouble in the first place.
Why is it that all the punishment attacks are in working class areas? Are better off kids better behaved? Of course not, but they are less likely to be on the streets, more likely to have their own rooms with computers etc and have the money to go to the cinema, leisure centres etc.
Something has to be done is the response from Tony Blair, David Blunkett and INLA apologists - especially the IRSP. So, they bring in Anti Social Behaviour Orders that can include Housing Benefit being cut if a family member is involved in anti-social behaviour - so leading to more poverty and more pressure on the youngster to steal to put food on the table if his mother is a lone parent. If people in the IRSP used as much energy seeking funding for youth projects or objecting to the fact that 16-17 year olds around here have NO income - their parents do not get a brass farthing towards their upkeep if they are not in full-time education or training - there would be a lot less crime and anti-social behaviour.
Of course, in spite of all the talk of people like me being middle-class for defending these young people's right not to be brutalised [I earn £13,500 a year and live in that middle-class paradise called Poleglass] the reality is that the so-called 'leaders' of the IRSP would not know what it means to be poor. Some of them have VERY middle class jobs and incomes and probably cannot imagine the stress faced by the families these young people come from.

by observer Fri Feb 20, 2004 16:12

Who is the victim? The victims of anti-social behaviour on working class estates are other working class people. Indeed, I would safely say that peoples lives are made far far worse by this and it is often the main concern of people. Their cars are stolen, their houses broken into, they are mugged etc, etc. And this is by and large tolerated by police forces throughout Ireland, with the added dimension in 6 counties that RUC has used it as means of demoralising communities and gathering low level information from the hoods.

I am not defending punishment beatings but like it or not they are popular. Far from there having been a demand that the IRA stop them, it would be more accurate to state that there are working class nationalist communities who put pressure on the IRA to resume them.

It is utterly simplistic to put it all down to the woes of capitalism. That is no comfort for people who have to put up with the behaviour of scum who make their lives a misery. It is something that the Marxist left has never come to terms with although the Independent Working Class Assoc in parts of England is attempting in a small way to tackle the problem.

by Saoirse Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:45 Derry

I had sworn not to post on IMC anymore but some of the things being said on this thread are OUTRAGEOUS!! Working class people 'prefer a punishment beating'. Do they now? Anyone ever ask anyone who got one? The reality is that some mothers hand their kids over to the RUC rather than have them get another punishment beating because of the effect it has on them. The young people in Ardoyne whose parents blame their suicides partly on the punishment attacks by the INLA are not the first. There are mothers here in Derry who will tell you their sons killed themselves, maybe months after the local Provos beat the shit out of them, but that it was the stigma and fear associated with the beatings that led to the eventual suicide.

As for 60% of catholics being unemployed!! Not even the most green republican or campaigner for the unemployed would argue that! Here in Derry we have the worst unemployment in the North and a mainly Catholic population. The official unemployment rate is about 10%, the actual unemployment rate about 30%. Yes, in some working class areas, it's more like 70 or 80% but then there are the Catholic areas where there are 2 or even 3 jobs in every house.

If the IRSP were serious about wanting to help young people in trouble, instead of acting like David Blunkett would like all cops to act, they would look around Derry and see where areas that had suffered really bad anti-social behaviour have turned things around by working WITH the young people, instead of against them. I agree the Provos have some cheek condemning the INLA for the attacks, given their record, but it was pressure from youth and community groups in working class areas that led them to stop.

by Cultra tea set Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:24

Remember that the RICH and their state police protectors are selfish,greedy, corrupt, cowardly, nasty, mean, spiteful, cruel, vindictive and sadistic when you go to the poll next time.

by Aine Fri Feb 20, 2004 15:21 Belfast

Yes, young people - both Catholic and Protestant - end up involved in criminal activity when there is no hope or no other avenues open to them. Someone defending the INLA and/or IRSP says "Unfortunately when working class young people choose to target their own working class communities for their criminal proceeds. This is when the paramilitaries have to step in. You don't rob from the poor and those in the same boat as yourself."
Why do paramilitaries have to step in to brutalise these young people? Why not put the energy into getting some help for them instead? There are some really good schemes being developed North and South of the border to help such young people, not to victimise them further. These WORK. We know from decades of punishment attacks that they don't work - witness some people who had multiple beatings and even knee-cappings and still went joyriding or whatever.

The IRSP claim some relationship to socialism - so how can they justify punishing the most marginalised and disturbed young people, those most damaged by capitalism and imperialism?

Remember - all cops are scum, whether they wear a uniform or a balaclava.

by Cruel britania Fri Feb 20, 2004 14:14

Paramilitaries are not the enemy, it is in fact the british government their hired peeler thug lackeys, ulster establishment and the rich who are the real enemy of working class protestants and catholics.

Ordinary people prefer the swift effective style of justice of paramilitary punishment beatings. Compared to the prolonged physical and mental torture, dished out by HM peelers who give you a punishment beating, then trail you through the courts and give you a criminal record which hounds you for the rest of your life, severely limiting you employment prospects and trapping you in a vicious circle and life of crime.

by Snare Eire Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:30

Yes its true that the sort of rough justice meeted out by paramilitaries is often a DIY version of the state's hang em and flog em policy. What seems to be happening in North Belfast is that the INLA have stepped into the gap in 'community policing' left by the provos. Its a bit ironic to hear SF people condemn the Irps for doing what the IRA was engaged in until recently.

Funny how the victims of all the paramilitary attacks are petty criminals and did you ever hear of them kneecapping a bad employer or a rackrenting landlord? That said, working class communities in Belfast are being crucified by the thuggery of the petty criminals. Problem is; if the paramilitaries are'nt the answer and the PSNI are'nt either (definitely not), how can this problem be tackled in a way that protects the victims and diverts kids away from crime?

by night nurse Fri Feb 20, 2004 13:26

The INLA are not responsible for the dog eat dog neo consumeristic, ultra competitive capitalist family environments in which those young people were brought up in.

The INLA are only mopping up the end result of families that pander to the dog eat dog, ultra competitive consumeristic capitalist ethos.

Young people turn to crime because they have no job prospects and they want money, to keep up with ads on tv, their working mates etc.

Unfortunately when working class young people choose to target their own working class communities for their criminal proceeds. This is when the paramilitaries have to step in. You don't rob from the poor and those in the same boat as yourself.

I have no probelm with working class youths who target, and rob the catholic/protestant rich in their quiet suburbs, and these youths should not suffer punishment beatings, for class consious criminal acts.

In fact it was the friends of the young fella that commited suicide who highlighted unemployment as the main cause for aimlessness and depression amongst the youth of Ardoyne.

And yes there are rich taigs, but I think you will find that whether rich taig or protestant they all pay for extra tuition in order that their precious rich children can pass the 11+.

THIS IS AN INDISPUTABLE FACT, although the pompus rich like to pretend their the rich offspring, are just naturally clever and gifted.

You're only disputing this FACT, to keep alive the false myth that the offspring of the rich are naturally cleverer, therefor intellectually superior than the children of poor and working class people.

by Aine Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:24 Belfast

It was not the newspapers that linked the two most recent suicides of young men in Ardoyne to the 'punishment beatings' they got from INLA thugs, but their families. And we can be sure THEY are not working to some British agenda, just grieving for sons for whom the punishment attacks were, literally, the final nail in the coffin.
What kind of young people get into trouble with INLA police? the same kind who get into trouble with the state cops - youngsters who have been completely failed by the system, who have low self-esteem and no hope for the future. Then, they get tarred and feathered by the INLA or kneecapped and it's just confirmed to them that they are scum, so they kill themselves. Well done, INLA, the RUC must be very reassured to know you are continuing their work of demonising and brutalising working class catholics.

by JMcK Fri Feb 20, 2004 08:48

There is of course absoloutely no connection between the suicide rate in north Belfast and the "Soup" of microwave beams in which the people live?

http://csifcem.free.fr/hspen.html

What about unemployment and suicide? Especially in cases of third generation of unemployment in one family ?

http://jech.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/57/8/594

Those who like to make political ground from jumping on the "Suicide" bandwagon, like they give a shit, to make political ground are disgusting.

Young men and women kill themselves out of desperation all over this island and these bashers say nothing until there is a chance to blacken a political opponent !

Does anyone care about suicide victims or just giving out about the IRPS?

by Very Disappointed Fri Feb 20, 2004 00:45

"The facts of the matter are it is the british state, who are responsible through, british state elitist bigotry against the working class republican poor."..” Poor children cannot afford private tuition in order to enable them to pass the 11+ and gain entry into Grammar schools”

Well, nearly all my catholic friends growing up were rich while I, a working class protestant, lived in a run down council estate house, was raised in a one parent family and I managed to pass my 11+ and go to a grammar school. As did, I should add, my West Belfast Catholic partner. Hey, guess what else, neither of us paid for tuition.
Don’t all the poor suffer and struggle the same?? Have you been to the Northside of Dublin and compared it to the Southside? I have. What type of elitist bigotry do they have? Is that British too?? To paint republicans as all poor and downtrodden while not openly admitting there is extreme depravation on both sides is so bigoted it's just disgusting.

I am so very utterly completely tired of hearing this pathetic lying rhetoric: this is not a forum for spin. How can you be so blind – or heartless?? Socialism and anarchy are not Nationalist/Republican owned. They are in fact, the opposite of this. You will never change this and you also make a mockery of a very real and terrible atrocity happening in our city.

These young men are dying, and I strongly, strongly suspect it is connected with paramilitaries and their mafia type drug running. I believe this because some years ago the same thing happened and it was connected to cheap nasty drugs then. If that was how the INLA were connected by the report, then frankly, I would believe it – just as I believed it previously when the loyalist paramilitaries took lives the exact same way.
I doubt, however, the ’oppression of the British system under the 11+’ were on the minds of these kids killing themselves, no matter how much you bitterly scream about it. So if you don’t want your INLA to be ‘smeared’ perhaps you ask them to invest in a better class of drugs for their murder money? Or better still, to stop oppressing people themselves through terrorising and peacefully seek representation?

Here are the facts you didn’t present: There is inequality between rich and poor on BOTH sides. ALL paramilitaries are out to kill – and they succeed if not checked. Only UNITED can the working class effectively have their views raised before or in ANY government on this island. But if the bigoted want only to represent themselves and act exclusively, so be it.

PLEASE, STOP THE BIGOTRY NOW BELFAST!!

by Prodding Fri Feb 20, 2004 00:42

So then the INLA shoves kids who have been abused by the educational system (it's actually peculiar to NI - Britain ditched the 11+ in the 70's) underneath manholes and keep them there for hours on end. Likewise they shoot 14 year olds in the legs for 'anti-social' behaviour. How brave of the so called 'liberationists'. Strange but the IRSP have a more draconian position on crime than the state. Or are they like Blair - tough on crime and the causes of crime?
Personally I think you bring the sort of connotation to the word socialism that the German National Socialist Party did.
Please do the decent thing and begin another feud.
By the way using female pen names doesn't hind the fact you are a bunch of 50 year old males who think that they will liberate the uneducated masses into a) a united Ireland b) a socialist Ireland. Dream on.