Dublin Solidarity with Madrid 12.03.04

by Gloria Sat Mar 13, 2004 23:54

Whoever bombed the trains in Madrid are unspeakably vile and must be brought to justice; but who did it on the larger scale is mostly irrelevant.

The Question of "Who Did It?" falls in line with government propaganda that tries to divert attention from their own complicity in this horrendous event. By placing blame entirely on a non-government organization rather than on Spanish policy that supports war and occupation in Iraq is a diversionary tactic that I pray will not work on the brave Spanish people.

Whether provoceteurs of the U.S.A state, the ETA or El-Queda bombed the trains is not the point. The point that must be made by the millions on the streets of Spain is that their government must back out of the war on the Middle East. Their government must pull out all troops and all backing for the occupation and continued war on the people of Iraq. If not, the millions of Spainish people must have a general strike until the government agrees to their demands.

People all around the world must stand up together for peace and against war and imperialism. All the world's citizens must tell their capitalist leaders to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan. We must stand steadfast in demanding an end to war, and an end to support of military aggression by all countries. Bush and his pirates must be isolated. Our leaders must be made to listen to what we want, or they must be toppled and replaced with people's governments.

The terrorists in Spain will certainly be found (framed or otherwise) and brought to justice. But if only the actual bombers are located and punished, and not the government of Spain and its policies, I fear that this type of event will never end.

With Canada's support of American Policy in the Middle East, and our continued support in Afghanistan, and yes in Iraq, we too are targets for a terrorist act. For what are we doing in Afghanistan if not securing that country as a pipeline for stolen Iraqi oil?

All out March 20 against war, terrorism, and an end to occupations.

My condolences to all Spanish people.
Toronto, Canada

by redjade Sun Mar 14, 2004 13:08

But it doesn't matter. If al-Qaeda didn't do this, whoever did it was inspired by al-Qaeda. The attack involves the same modus operandi, the same abandonment of clear political purpose for body count as the sole criterion. If non-Islamist organizations come to adopt the same methods, the danger is only increased.

So far, all military measures in the "war on terrorism" have strengthened the emerging archipelago of Islamist terrorist organizations. Weakening it requires taking away the political ground on which they stand. That ground is not the virtually nihilistic domestic political programs of these groups. It is their opposition to U.S. imperial control of the Islamic world, a grievance that most Muslims share.

It doesn't matter whether you're a dove or a hawk, left or right, concerned with the suffering of others or concerned merely with your own skin. Military means will not work. The beginning of a solution is the end of the twin occupations in the Middle East. Only after that will it be possible to take measures against terrorism that don't worsen the problem.

Rahul Mahajan
http://www.counterpunch.org/mahajan03122004.html

by redjade Sun Mar 14, 2004 14:08

Around 6PM local time in Madrid, an estimated 3,000-5,000 protesters gathered spontaneously in front of the headquarters of Spain's ruling Popular Party (Partido Popular, or PP), located on calle Genova. Participants shouted slogans against media manipulation, and carried signs asking, "Who did it?". Flashmobs spread by SMS throughout the country, with parallel gatherings quickly emerging in other cities.

The protests occurred one day before general elections take place in Spain. Government representatives denounced today's gatherings, describing them as illegal assemblies -- but because they were organized in a decentralized manner using mobile technology, there was no single responsible party against whom punitive action could be taken.

more at....

by - - please calm down. Sun Mar 14, 2004 16:13

The mobile telephone network has been on reduced capacity since 00h00. At first because of the _fear_, the _terror_, the _anxiety_ the loss of signal caused the hairs to go up on the back of my neck.
Then I thought a while, reflected went home and listened to Music, read some poetry, tried to eat some food, and realised that it might be in the interest of greater "calm" and "serenity" that our little grapevine mobiles don't work for a while. At least till we return to rationality.
I am doing my best to be rational.
please read:-
http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=63825&condense_comments=false#comment65176

by Andrew Sun Mar 14, 2004 17:44

Toronto:

"Whoever bombed the trains in Madrid are unspeakably vile and must be brought to justice; but who did it on the larger scale is mostly irrelevant.

The Question of "Who Did It?" falls in line with government propaganda"

The identity of the those that killed 200 innocent civilians is 'irrelevant'? That is a disgusting and frankly moronic thing to say. The question of 'who did it' falls in line with Government propaganda? Tell that to those weeping in despair at having loved ones wrenched from them in a vile public slaughter, tell them wanting to know who did it is "falling in line with government propaganda." You must either be pitiously cruel or a fool to express such sentiments

by - Sun Mar 14, 2004 19:25

toronto obviously has not realised that most people in Spain naturally have already attributed blame, which is a normal reaction to a masacre of such magnitude.
And they do not all agree with each other.

If commentators do not have anything useful to offer in the english language to the international community on this thread, then go write something else somewhere else.

by tourist Sun Mar 14, 2004 23:12

andrew and -,

to a certain extent i understand your points with regards to gloria`s (from toronto) view points. however she does offer some sort of positivity - that is, that we should get out on march 20th to express our frustration with the twin occupations and the fact that they feed anti-western rhetoric in the middle east. we should also remember those that have died in madrid, iraq, palestine, isreal, and all the other parts of the world where there is needless suffering.

the attacks in madrid were obviously devestating and horrific - but the causes have to be looked at and tackled, as the post from counterpunch above says, whethar we`re left or right, or whatever, the consequences for us all could be grave.

by righteous pragmatist Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:58

Spain was not attacked because its government supported the Iraq war. No more so than a French oil tanker was blown up in the Persian Gulf before the Iraq war.
No more so than Canada which is in opposition to the iraq War have been warned by Ossama Bin Laden that the Dominion will is one of its targets.
In fact the Iraq war is irrevelant.
The state reason from Al-Qeada for the Madrid attacks was the historical defeat of the Moors who were control of much of Spain by Kind Ferdinand in 1492.
Thats the reason!
If they are to claim revenge for the Iraq war we have a long wait until the year 2600!
The reason for the terror attacks on 9/11, in Bali, In Turkey, In Iraq in Morroco, In India and countless other places is because the men women and children who were the targets of these bombs were not fundamentalist Sunni Wabbaist Muslims.
These terrorists want to kill atheists, buddhists, hindus, Jews, christians, roman catholics and christians, homosexuals, lesbians, democrats,republicans,communists, socialists, free market capitalists, Irish, English, Swedes, Germans, Americans, Israelis, Spanish, Indians, Arabs, Chinese, Russians, Africans.
Why?
Cause we are not fanatical muslims.
Thats the only reason for these attacks.
They want to destroy us all because we are all infidels.

by Rda Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:05

Even if your a fanatical muslim it is not enough. Ask the Shi'te muslims of Karebela.

To appease the fanatics, we must all die or join the Whababi sect

by Righteous pragmatist Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:25

Out of utter fear and terror and raging frustration the Spanish people have voted for the Socialists in Spain to topple the PP from power.
The Socialists are in favour of pulling the troops from Iraq and are oppsed to George Bush.
Does that mean Al-Qeada will not attack the Spaniards again?
If you believe that you will believe anything!

by BRÉNOC Mon Mar 15, 2004 18:32

As long as the Spanish government behaves the way it does, imposing it's forces of occupation on the Iraqis, the Basques or any other group, then they are in no position to complain when the oppressed retaliate.
The cowardly Spanish politicians that saw nothing wrong with bombing and killing Iraqis, have now discovered the reality of war.
It is bloody, it is messy and everybody suffers.

I don't believe the new government will be any better than the old one, the socialists were responsible for setting up death squads to operate in the Basque country and organised a number of murders to further their own political agenda.
But apparently we are supposed to feel sorry for the Spaniards killed !

Why ?

This is a perfect example of a bully boy getting a bloody nose from those they thought to weak to retaliate.

by Beansof57 Mon Mar 15, 2004 23:13 beansof57 at wanadoo dot es

We woke up this morning to bright, warm sunny weather. The number of smiles on peoples' faces, that extra little spring in their step, the whistling on the buses and metros, what had happened?

One of the most obnoxious, stubborn arrogant goverments had been shown the door with a hard kick up the arse to help it on it's miserable way.

Whilst the previous socialist goverment was seen as having declined into corruption and murder (the actual extent of these two points would be the cause of long discussions) the party leadership has been totally renovated since and, one would sincerely hope, "has learnt it's lesson".

Whilst I am not a socialist voter, it is with renewed hope that I face the coming years. From Catalunya and with the Socialist/Nationalists in power here at home and the Catalans with considerable influence in Madrid, it is to be hoped that progress can be made in mending bridges recklessly destroyed during the last 8 years.

I am, however, just a little reticent given the difficulties faced by the new government and the problems they will have to cope with in fixing priorities and timetables when all and sundry will be claiming special privileges that need attending to immediately.

I apologise for the length of this posting, but I still have lots to say and would be more thgan happy to share my views woith those of others over the coming days and weeks.

Regards from Bellaterra

by Beansof57 Mon Mar 15, 2004 23:28 beansof57 at wanadoo dot es

To whom have the people in Spain naturally (??) assigned blame and for what?

- To those who carried out the actual bombings?
- To those reposnible for Spain being targetted?
- To those trying to mislead us as to who we should blame?

Whilst I am convinced that knowing the names of the perpetrators of this unspeakable massacre will in no way alleviate the pain and sorrow of the relatives and friendsof the victims, the repugnant way in which the ousted government tried to use the event to their own political advantage must, surely, have added to their distress.

Greetings from Catalunya.

by redjade Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:04

Explaining how ETA came to be blamed, the council's French president, Ambassador Jean-Marc de la Sabliere, said: "The Spanish government stated that, and the Spanish delegation has asked the council to put this element in their resolution and members of the council accepted it." The US ambassador to the United Nation, John Negroponte, explained that blame was assigned to ETA at the Spanish government's urging, and because "it is the judgement of the government of Spain that these attacks were carried out by ETA and we have no information to the contrary".

Though repeated questions were raised in many quarters, and the head of Europol, Juergen Storbeck, had voiced reservations regarding ETA's involvement, the Security Council nevertheless chose to condemn ETA. But the fact that council members such as the US and France chose to portray their action based upon the Spanish government's wishes, illustrated a concurrent distancing from the decision. The council's actions were appreciated as questionable from their outset.

by Gary Boland Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:45

Spanish tradgedy made worse. War on terror must continue.
Cannot give in to terrorists. Must fight for freedom and liberty.
THE SPANISH TRAGEDY MADE WORSE: The first tragedy in Spain was the murder of more than 200 innocent people on March 11. Something that really must teach Europeans to work together against cross-border terrorism. The second tragedy was the election results. For the first time islamist terrorists - or so it seems - have been able to determine an election in a democracy. And the result will be that Spanish troops withdraw from Iraq. Whatever we may think of that decision, it is always - ALWAYS - counterproductive to give in to terrorists. Even lunatics understand incentives.

by Sal Tue Mar 16, 2004 17:57

The Spanish people have done Europe proud!
A vote against US terrorism and imperialism.

This has been coming for a while. The Spanish people didn’t want
this War as the Iraqi people have never posed a threat to them. They have voted accordingly.

by Phuq Hedd Tue Mar 16, 2004 22:24

and completely disagree with the obnoxious "weep or shut up" type post from the person posting as "- -".

Specifically I agree with the point that the arguments over ETA/AlQ/CIA lets the Spanish government off the hook for their murderous involvement in Iraq. Thousands of families in Iraq are feeling the way that the Madrid families are feeling.

Obviously the support of the Spanish State for the state of unrule and disorder ushered in by the Project for a New American Century has contributed to the deaths of both sets of people.

Looking at whether it's AlQ/ETA/CIA is useful to observe the mechanism of the part of the new capitalist machine, but it's important to look at the driver too.

by redjade Thu Mar 18, 2004 06:49

To be sure, the PP said it went to Iraq to help promote peace, but Spain's intervention had "war of civilizations" written all over it. Many Spanish troops serving in Iraq, for example, wore an arm patch depicting the Cross of St. James of Compostela. That insignia commemorates the Battle of Clavijo in 844. According to legend, the Apostle St. James the Elder came down from the sky and killed every Moor - as Muslims were then called - in his path. Ever since, St. James has been called "Santiago Matamoros," St. James the Moor Killer.

In July, the Madrid newspaper El Mundo warned: "To put the Cross of St. James of Compostela on the uniforms of Spanish soldiers demonstrates an absolute ignorance of the psychology of the society in which they will have to carry out their mission."

more of the story at....

by emmett duffy Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:20 emmettduffy at hotmail dot com

So little as changed since the days of Matamoros. George is waging holy war against the Moslems. Osama against the infidels and the temples of civilization are still the targets and the unwilling citizens the victims. Where o where is the voice of progression!

by Anonymous Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:43

These were some of the reactions from a lovely girl I know living in Madrid:-

"Yes, I´m fine and my family and friends too. I don´t know anybody who was in any of the trains but it´s horrible!! Have you seen the images on the TV? When the 11 of september happened in New York, there were anyone image of anybody death but in Spain... We could see everything, even the people who live near the place it happened told how they founded pieces of bodies in their houses... Atocha, is one of the places where it happened. I used to go there every single morning, it´s very central place and connection of trains, busses, subway... you can go almost everywhere from there........ It´s horrible....The children in the school waiting for being collected by their parents and they will never be back...( My english is getting worst but I hope you can understand what I want to say. In fact, I don´t really want to speak about it, but it´s very hard.... I couldn´t even sleep this day and the feelings in everywhere are so sad... When you take the Metro you can see the faces of everybody and you can imagine what they are thinking....Everybody is scared!! We were scared about ETA but now we also have that...
Everything is our Goverment´s fall...When Aznar started to support Bush we went to the street to say NO to the WAR!! But it was for nothing and now..........What??"

by satire Sat Mar 20, 2004 14:22

=

by Zinoviev Sat Mar 20, 2004 21:07

Who woulda thought the Spanish would show a yellow streak and vote for a crowd of loser Socialists just because they think it might make the bad men go away.

What they've done is made Al Qaida think they can influence elections by bombing.

Spain is a disgrace.

by FT Sat Mar 20, 2004 22:33

Who would have thought that a yellow draft dodger would have sent so many people to their deaths.
And who would have thought that the most technologically advanced nation would have elected an illiterate. Oh wait, they didn't - he was court appointed.