'All Children Are Equal'

by interested Sun May 23, 2004 00:02

I just think that it is important to make clear that the amendment will have no effect on the number of asylum seekers here, whether it is passed or not. If passed it will only serve to discriminate between children based on their parentage. It is also necessary to be aware that should this ridiculous referendum be passed, it will not necessarily be the currently proposed legislation, which will come into force, rather it will allow that any citizenship legislation be introduced.

by TONY ADAMS - SELF Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:43

I SEE THIS AS LUDICROUS. THE JUSTICE MINISTER IS MAKING THE ENVIRONMENT VERY TENSE AND UNFRIENDLY. WE MUST UNDERSTAND THAT EVEN AMERICA(THE SUPER POWER) STILL GIVE CITIZENSHIP TO CHILDREN BORN THERE IRRESPECTIVE OF WHEN EITHER OR BOTH PARENTS COME INTO AMERICA. IF MICHAEL AND HIS PROPOSAL GO AHEAD THE QUESTION THEN IS WHAT NATIONALITY WILL A CHILD WHO IS BORN HERE BY NON NATIONAL PARENTS BE? WE MUST REMEMBER THAT WE ARE ALL FROM ONE GOD AND SHOULD MAKE IRELAND A GODLY STATE BY GIVING CHILDREN THEIR RIGHT TO LIVE AND BE LOVED IN A NATION THEY ARE BORN.

by voter Mon Apr 12, 2004 18:17

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64154&condense_comments=false#comment68806

by ec Mon Apr 12, 2004 18:01

- and all other parties who support the referendum or stay neutral on it?

by voter Mon Apr 12, 2004 16:59

The main thing the government want to do by bringing in this amendment is to win an election. I think the No campaign should therefore as well as campaigning for a no vote, they should call on people to vote against the government in the Euro and Local elections.

by Frank C Mon Apr 12, 2004 13:09

What are the numbers for non national children born in Ireland? What is the split between mothers here on work permits or with partners who have work permits, those legally seeking asylum and those here illegally?
This data would throw a lot of light on the percieved 'Problem'.
If anyone has this information, please publish on this web site. McDowell does not have it or is embarresed to publish it.

Also given the age of most non national here on work permits, its hardly surprising that some of them have children!

Given our demographic trends, it appears tro me that we should be encouraging these people with thier children to come here and stay.

by Tom Barry Sat Apr 10, 2004 01:24

Don't know, Duncan. But I think it would be a good idea to deport you first to make room for them. Well, maybe not first, 'turd' perhaps?

by Duncan Sat Apr 10, 2004 01:06

Ireland is a small country. There will always be people trying to get in - the population of the Turd World is over 5 billion.

If we allowed in 500 million of those. Would the do-gooders be happy then???

by Natty Érie Fri Apr 09, 2004 23:13

''Bob Marley would not have been deported from Ireland if his life was in danger.''

this is nonsense. some of the most recent deportees were not even served papers telling them to leave - they were just woken up and taken away in the middle of the night and sent away. Their Irish children had their passports confiscated so that they could never return to their homeland.

Tell me what countries in this world take passports from their children and deport them?

by John Fri Apr 09, 2004 16:49

Catholic worker is confusing citizenship with asylum. Ireland grants asylum to thousands of people who are not citizens. Each asylum case is decided on its merits. Ireland has been one of the most liberal countries in the world in recent years when it comes to granting asylum, and rightly so. The number of deportations annually from Ireland is one of the lowest in Europe. Bob Marley would not have been deported from Ireland if his life was in danger. The American woman might have been as America is a democracy and no one is oppressed there. There are 280 million Americans - how many of them sought political asylum abroad last year. Bloody few I can tell you! Pick a more realistic example, like a woman from Cuba seeking political asylum abroad. None of this is affected by the proposed referendum, which deals with citizenship, not asylum.
No other country in the world grants citizenship to a child of non-nationals who arrive in the country a month before birth. The residency requirement in McDowell's proposals is 3 years out of the previous 4. This is far more generous than most countries, and rightly so. It is a more liberal law that what Nelson Mandela introduced in S. Africa. Is he a fascist and a racist?

by Catholic Worker Watcher Fri Apr 09, 2004 15:28

I'm interested to read the above posting from the CWers. I'm sure it's against the Bible somewhere to post on indymedia on Good Friday. It's probably in Levidicus.

Where will the Catholic Workers stand if the pope and his bishops get up and say that you should all vote Yes to the referendum. The guy is infallible and always right, remember Divorce and Abortion referendums.

I hope ye all enjoy Sunday listening to the Pope and his Priests.

by catholic worker Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:32

The facts remain that in both the cases you quoted, of the white american mother, and black british mother giving birth to children in Ireland, BOTH the children born are IRISH.

Say the white american mother applies for residency and asylum in Ireland, due to the oppressive Bush regieme in America. If the mothers application for asylum is rejected, and the mother faces deportation, the mother has the right to choose to leave her Irish child here in Ireland, in the care and protection of the irish state, or a family/friend she trusts, to look after the child, to prevent the child returning to an unstable and possible life threatening danger in their parents country of origin. That child born in ireland has the right to irish residency, citizenship and protection of the Irish state.

Take the case of Ken Sara Wiwa, who because of his political opposition to the ruling regieme in his own country, suffered physical torture, attempted murder and was imprisoned in his own country, Ken's applicaiton for asylum was turned down, and he was sent back to his country of origin to certain death, he was murdered soon after his return to his own country.

Should we be sending children and babies who are Irish citizens due to being born in Ireland, back to their parents country of origin to suffer similar fates.

Take the case of the legendary Bob Marley, who came to live in England after being shot and seriously wounded by right wing militias, in a politicaly motivated murder attempt on his life. Bob's case was clear, his life was in immediate danger in Jamaica, due to the political turmoil and the ongoing civil war, between leftist rebels and right wing junta militias.
Due to the recent racist change in immigration legislation if Bob had been an asylum seeker today, he would have been sent back to Jamaica immediately to face certain danger and death.

Our governments are seeking to appease racists and incorporate racist policies into already stringent immigration laws. The law should not be changed and meddled with to appease and pander to racism and zenophobia.

by John Thu Apr 08, 2004 20:31

Spot the similarites between Michael
McDowell's proposals in 2004 and Nelson Mandela's proposals when President of South Africa in 1995 - don't see how you can call one a fascist and a racist without calling the other one as well

Michael McDowell
-------------------------

The proposal will only affect persons born in Ireland where both parents are non nationals at the time of the birth and neither parent is in a position to satisfy a residency requirement at the time of birth. It will only be necessary for one parent to satisfy that residency requirement. There will be no residency requirement in the case of a parent who is a British national - not least because of their immigration free status and also the implications for the Good Friday agreement. There will be no specific residency requirement in respect of a parent who is resident in Ireland without condition as to time - a recognised refugee would be an example. All others will, at a minimum, be required to have a period of three years lawful residence in the State in the four years immediately preceding the birth.

Nelson Mandela
-----------------------

In terms of the South African Citizenship Act (no. 88) the following persons are South African citizens by birth:

Persons born in South Africa before October 06, 1995.
Persons born in or out of wedlock on or after October 06, 1995 if one of his or her parents is either a South African citizen or a permanent resident. For those born before October 6, 1995 the mother of the child must have been a South African citizen at the time of the birth of the child.

by John Thu Apr 08, 2004 20:02

So, under bigotwatch's definition of racism virtually every country that has ever existed is racist. And Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell are being called fascists and racists for introducing laws similar to those in virtually every other country in the world, in fact more liberal than most. So, is Nelson Mandela a fascist and a racist? When he was President of South Africa he introduced a South African Citizenship Act, whose provisions are quite similar to those proposed for Ireland by Michael McDowell.

by Animal Thu Apr 08, 2004 19:25

If anarchists campaign for a No vote they will be indirectly be getting people to vote in the Euro and Local elections. Will they still be actively campaigning therefore??

by Dail Thu Apr 08, 2004 19:15

1. Notwithstanding any other provision of the Constitution, a person born in the island of Ireland which includes its islands and seas, and who does not have at the time of his or her birth, at least one parent who is an Irish citizen or entitled to be a Irish citizen is not entitled to Irish citizenship or nationality, unless otherwise provided for by law.

2. This section shall not apply to persons born before the date of the enactment of this section.

by bigotwatch Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:59

Racism is when a persons nationaility or ethnicity is used as the criteria in judging them. If Kerr didn't pick the black footballer because he was not the best footballer than that is not racism, if he didn't pick him because he was black than that is racism. In this proposed constitutional change babies born in Ireland will be discriminated between on the basis of nationality, this is racism.

You say other countries have different laws, so what! That doesn't make it ok, I would say that all residents in all countries should have the same rights. Using your logic back in the 19th century when workers didn't have the vote you would defend this by saying 'no other country gives workers votes' Your logic is warped and backward.

by John Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:33

Nonsense! If Brian Kerr doesn't pick a Dubliner for the Irish soccer team because he is black, that's racism. If he doesn't pick David Beckham, its not racism - its because Beckham is a non-national and therefore not eligible. Lots of countries apply different laws to non-nationals, even to foreign-born who acquire nationality, without it being called racism. Arnold Schwarzanegger can't run for President of the USA because he is foreign-born, whereas Jesse Jackson can. There isn't a country in the world that gives the same rights to non-nationals that it gives to nationals. Only if it distinguishes between nationals on the basis of colour or ethnicity, or between non-nationals on the basis of colour or ethnicity, can it be called racist.
McDowell's proposals make no such distinction. I was in California from August to October last, but wasn't allowed to vote in the election for Governor. I never considered that racist. But, if the same had applied to a black Californian, then that would have been racist.

by Bigotwatch Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:11

It's discrimination on the basis of nationality, that is racism. Racism has nothing to do with skin colour as there are no 'races' as such, there is only on human 'race'.

Racism is a word that is used when describing discrimination on the basis of nationality or ethnicity.

by John Thu Apr 08, 2004 18:08

If the Irish parents are black and the non-national parents are white American members of the Ku Klux Klan and only in Ireland on holidays, it will give citizenship to the black child and not the white child, and quite right too. Nothing in the least racist about that.

by Bigotwatch Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:51

What about
1. the child born to Irish parents
and
2. the child who is born to non national parents

The proposal will give citizenship to child 1 and not to child 2. On the basis of nationailty. This is clearly a racist referendum

by John Thu Apr 08, 2004 17:46

Those who say this referendum is racist are just talking tripe. I suggest they read McDowell's proposals. Consider the following cases of two foreign women coming to Dublin and giving birth a month later.

woman 1: a London-born black woman
woman 2: a Dallas-born white woman

under McDowell's proposals, which child gets Irish citizenship and which does not?

I'll tell you.

Its the child of women 1 who gets Irish citizenship - and quite right too.

So, what's racist about that?

Ireland will still have one of the most liberal laws in the world on granting citizenship.

If you don't believe me, get pregnant this weekend, fly to any country of your choosing in 9 months, and see if that country will give
your newborn child citizenship. Like hell they will!

by Fergus Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:21 newsforthedeaf at yahoo dot com

During Dail opposition
Labour's Rabbite accused PD Harney
of going ahead with a referendum on citizenship
following the advice of a US guru
who claimed the immigration issue would help the govt. in the other elections

Anyone got any details on the 'guru'

by Mick Flint Thu Apr 08, 2004 16:06

So the government want to close off a loophole in the law, so what - get over it. I can't believe people seriously suggest that our borders should be completely open - are you just pretending to be that naive??
Economic migrants have been abusing the parentage law for too long.

by Sarah Thu Apr 08, 2004 14:40

28,000 on a waiting list is an outrageous figure, if you have the money you can be seen in Blackrock Clinic immediately- how does that make for an equal and just society?

Why don't you check out the latest figures on homelessness or the numbers waiting for housing?

Serioulsy man, Ireland serves those with the ££££

by Geróid Ó Gearóid - The Evil Gerald Thu Apr 08, 2004 14:34

I think we may have covered this ground before:

http://www.evilgerald.com

http://www.evilgerald.com/Issues/Issue14/1culchiesout.htm

by anon Thu Apr 08, 2004 14:24

I agree with the comment about the rich serving the rich alone, and screwing the poor. When are we going to start taking a global look at things. We in the EU spend £7 billion sterling a year on ice cream, for Christ's sake! 800 million people go hungry every day. We cannot go on like this. We have lived off the backs of others for so long, and now we build walls, fences, borders, so that the majority of the world's population - the poor - cannot touch us or try to share the world's resources. Naive, maybe, but also true. People call truth naive when they don't like that particular truth. We have to really stand up against this referendum.
So what, the other EU states have stricter laws - why must we always go for the lowest common denominator? It is pathetic. Time to take a stand.

by John Thu Apr 08, 2004 13:15

You didn't actually contradict any of the comments I made. Here are the latest figures for hospital waiting-lists (inpatients):

Rep Ireland: 28,000

N. Ireland 54,000
England: 980,000
Scotland: 112,000
Wales: 77,000

So, under the wicked FF/PD government, waiting-lists per population are:

25% those in N. Ireland
35% those in England
32% those in Scotland
28% those in Wales

Sinn Fein ran the N. Ireland health service for 2 years. When they left office waiting-lists up there were even higher than they are now. Why didn't people protest outside their offices for having waiting-lists 4 times as long as in the Republic?

England, Scotland and Wales have Labour
governments and almost completely socialised health services.

by Sarah Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:05

Time to take off those rose coloured glasses- look around you, the health service is in crisis, there are continous social welfare cut backs, the rich are serving the rich and the poor are beng left out in the cold.
Mc Dowell, since being Minister of Justice is doing his best to create a police state in this country where protestors are being demonised. Don't know which Ireland you are living in, but the one i see around me ain't so hot.

by Jesse Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:02

"....and Ireland won the Triple Crown.
Name a socialist government that can match that record."

Calm down John!!
Change your medication.

by John Wed Apr 07, 2004 20:08

The government's proposals are not in the least racist. They apply equally to all ethnic groups, white, black, or polka-dot. Few, if any, other countries grant citizenship to the children of parents just arrived in that country. Are they all racist? Ireland's current laws are among the most liberal in the world in regard to citizenship and need to be brought into line with other EU countries, since Irish citizenship also confers EU citizenship, our EU partners expect no less. The referendum is scheduled for June 11. That's 9 weeks away, more than enough time for a debate. Most election campaigns last 3 weeks. Its very sensible to hold it on the same day as other elections and save voters having to go to the polls twice. This will ensure a higher turnout. There wont be a frenzied atmosphere. It will be an incredibly dull campaign, especially once opinion polls show the government's proposals being carried by a huge majority. The number of deportations from Ireland is one of the lowest in the EU. Check the figures for yourself. The government's policies aren't failing: unemployment is low, inflation is low, government borrowing is low, taxes are low, crime is low, hundreds of thousands of earlier emigrants have returned, house building is the highest in the world,
new motorways are opening monthly, the LUAS opens in a few months, the Dublin Port Tunnel is nearing completion, waiting-lists for hospitals are one-third those in Britain, and one-quarter those in Northern Ireland (when Sinn Fein was in charge of the health service there), the smoking ban has been a tremendous success and won acclaim world-wide, 3 million have mobile phones (3 thousand in Cuba), new car sales are soaring, the number of foreign tourists is at record levels, and Ireland won the Triple Crown. Thats what I call successful government. Name a socialist government that can match that record. I'll finish with words of wisdom from Michael McDowell:

"It will most certainly not be racist: it will apply even-handedly to the children of all non-nationals irrespective of colour, ethnicity or any other criterion on which racism is based. It will be based on a reasonable period of lawful residence in the State on the part of at least one of the non-national parents. It will be at least as generous as the citizenship laws of most of our European Union colleagues as regards children born to non-nationals."

by ec Wed Apr 07, 2004 19:15

and keeping the church's grubby hands away from it completely as I recall.

Did he die without his citizenship being restored ? Was he a Wobbly?

by Joeboy Wed Apr 07, 2004 19:06

The only Irish citizen ever deported from his own country because he was a Roscommon Commie

by Anthony Wed Apr 07, 2004 18:32

I wasnt trying to stir it here. I just hate when people nit pick what suits them from certain things. They seem to take what they want from something and then forget about the rest of it.

by UCD Student Wed Apr 07, 2004 16:26

"The case against this referendum needs to be personalised. "

I would disagree. I think that with many people personalising it would win over people, but it would not win most. Unlike the abortion referenda this is not being argued on those lines by the Government.

The Government will be using economic arguments to deflect away from the crisis they created in health, education, transport etc. They should be answered with the facts that THEY are to blame NOT immigrants. This is what is needed to win this referendum, not personalising it.

by ec Wed Apr 07, 2004 16:16

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2004/0407/4050245628HM1NIGERIA.html

McDowell is a nasty piece of work. Seems FF and PDs aer pandering to racism and the hang em flog em brigade to avoid humiliation in EU/Local elections.

What is the name of the famous union organiser and hall builder who dev deported?

by Supporter Wed Apr 07, 2004 14:52

If anyone believes that their deportation is imminent they should make sure that they have left some contact details with Irish friends and activists. I know that may be problematic, but even a phone number or address of a relation in their country of origin might do. the important thing is to maintain some kind of contact, so that their cases are not forgotten, and some follow-up can be done.

by Kristina McElroy Wed Apr 07, 2004 14:30

Kristina McElroy
Green party

"Lazlo thanks for making me laugh- the terror of the "happy and well-fed" beats the great unwashed in this context anyway! On a day when we hear that they was a mass deportation to Lagos last night with  Irish children. It was good to have a  brief moment of laughter.

The "X" case had a positive outcome because the public could see the human story behind the politics. The case against this referendum needs to be personalised. People can identify with the fact that their extended ,family friends and work-mates are now under threat. They can identify with how hard it will be  for Irish children to be torn from school friends and the Irish life they have made with their family.

by I'm still standing Wed Apr 07, 2004 14:23

There is no contradiction in opposing the British occupation of the six counties and also supporting the rights of asylum seekers and refugees.
I would love to answer the first Anthony in a more detailed way, but his comment contains what my lawyer would describe as a "leading question".
Been there, worn the T-shirt, etc.and I dont need a lecture in republicanism from a troll.

by Anthony Wed Apr 07, 2004 13:58

Seems like it was a good protest. It looks like a good turnout for a protest on a work day. I was initially dubious when I heard that it was taking place at the PD office on South Frederick St. which is a narrow street with not a lot of space and somewhat off the beaten track but it seems to have worked well. It's heartening to see people out on the street at this stage of the campaign.

To answer my namesake, I'd say that the people attending this demonstration were motivated by a sense of social justice rather than a desire to see all the aspirations of the 1916 Proclamation become a reality.

by here we go again Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:34

there's something incredibly chilling about the way the irish government is rounding up so-called 'illegal' asylum seekers at the dead of night, forcing them into planes... no media presence, no witnesses... the radio and tv news coverage is sickeningly sanitized, often a half minute report simply stating the number deported, no video footage, & a almost willful attempt to not interview those being deported & it seems that this is the way the government is getting away with it, no doubt people right across the spectrum would be enraged if shown these deportations... irish troops in kosovo mandated to stop ethnic cleansing, i'd like to see kosovars in ireland stopping the ethnic cleansing here... these secret deportations, happening in the wee hours of the morning are nothing short of crimes against humanity... many thanks to RAR to get the ball rolling in organizing against the !ILLEGAL! referendum.

by Desmond Fennell Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:26

Foreigners don't have te same rights as Irish citizens. How many have to come here before Ireland will be full??? A million?? Ten million???

by Anthony Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:16

I see a reference is made to the 1916 proclamation in this article. I wonder would all the protestors be so quick to go out and protest against the occupation of the 6 counties or protest against the mal-treatment and discrimination of its citizens??? Would you all be so quick to take up arms to try get it back as the proclamation says--
"Until our arms have brought the opportune moment for the establishment of a permanent national government, representative of the whole people of Ireland, and elected by the suffrages of all her men and women"

by Pat C Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:03

But I do agree with it! I think its important to highlight the fact that this referendum is an attempt to get peoples minds off the cutbacks and corruption.

by atthur Wed Apr 07, 2004 01:54

Indeed all children are equal and they become what their development einviorement makes them.It is astonishing that justice minister would contemplate such a referendum especially as most of our peoples were immigrants themselves who had to find somewhere to find work ,little was thought of ,or about them ,other than send money back to entrench the as j b Shaw said the "soaped pigs of society ",who wouldnt have a clue what it was like for the people concerned .One thing we the ex pats can remember was the good times and the nature people we encountered who made our life a little more livable and a sense of belonging that we experienced and should share with the less fortunates that are going to be the subject of any refrendum.Our population in famine times was twice what it is now ,therfore it is gross selfishness for the gov to contemlate this.Furthermore it was not many years ago that if you had 1million to invest in Ireland you received automatic citizenship.If this racial nonsence is not dropped it would be a total betrayal of everything we stand for.

by Lazlo Jamf Wed Apr 07, 2004 01:12

I like the look of this protest. Lots of happy, warmly dressed, well fed protesters. Much more likely to make PD voters sit up and listen than sending along a gaggle of greasy haired weirdos.

by Killian Forde Tue Apr 06, 2004 19:47

Good protest. Well done to all groups and parties.

by Pat C Tue Apr 06, 2004 19:36

I agree with "UCD Student". I think that we should attack the government's terrible provision for public services in the slogans we use. The one there about closing off-shore accounts not our borders is correct. this is a rotten corrupt government that are to blame for crap public services, immigrants are not to blame.

by UCD student Tue Apr 06, 2004 19:33

It's great to see the SU Deputy President and next years DP there. I think that this disgusting referendum needs to be seriously campaigned against. The USI are mandated to campaign against it. It's important they actually do something.

I agree with the slogans at the protest above. Indeed all children are equal. HOwever I think the government will be using the underfunded public services to get this vote through. Slogans should be say "Health Care for All, Citizenship for All" "Jobs for All, Vote No" or "Blames the Government not Immigrants".

I *seriously* suggest this is the line we must take if we are to beat them.

by Campaign Against the Racist Referendum Tue Apr 06, 2004 19:23 againsttheracistreferendum at eircom dot net 12a Brunswick place, Dublin 2 087 7974622

PRESS RELEASE

CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE RACIST REFERENDUM

Protest at PD HQ against McDowell’s proposed citizenship referendum

For immediate release 06/04/04

At 1 pm today, Tuesday 6th April - as the Cabinet meets to decide the date for the proposed citizenship referendum - the Campaign Against the Racist Referendum will protest outside the Progressive Democrats headquarters in South Frederick Street, Dublin. The campaign calls on Progressive Democrat Minister for Justice Michael McDowell to withdraw his plans for the referendum. Failing this the campaign believes the referendum should not be held on June 11th, the same day as the local and European elections.

Before the protest, spokesperson Mark Grehan said:

“This referendum is not progressive but a backwards step. It is an attack on the rights of children, and a blatant attempt to divert attention from the failed policies of this government. We believe all children should be treated equally as advocated by the 1916 Proclamation. It is unacceptable to discriminate against children based on who their parents are or where their parents come from. We are calling on the Progressive Democrats to withdraw this vicious and unwarranted attack on the rights of Irish children.

“There is a growing consensus that if this referendum goes ahead it should not be held at the same time as the local and European elections. Since the foundation of the State all children born here have been entitled to citizenship. Any attempt to withdraw this right from children, should be exposed to rigorous public examination. There is not enough time between now and June 11th to have a full and open debate. It is outrageous that government should even consider rushing through such fundamental changes to the rights of Irish children. The PD’s and Fianna Fáil signed a pledge on International Day Against Racism promising not to play the race card during the elections. The proposed referendum makes a mockery of this pledge.”

Ends

For more info contact:

Mark Grehan 087 797 4622
Aindrias Ó Cathasaigh 087 270 2045

Campaign Against the Racist Referendum
C/o 12a Brunswick place, Dublin 2
againsttheracistreferendum@eircom.net

by redjade Tue Apr 06, 2004 18:57

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by redjade Tue Apr 06, 2004 18:55

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