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Israeli Air Force land at Shannon Airport (again).

category clare | anti-war / imperialism | news report author Saturday May 06, 2006 01:32author by Conor Cregan Report this post to the editors

Two weeks ago, on a routine visit to monitor the on going war crimes that is the Bertie Ahern led governments facilitation of the of the US military troops and intelligence services (CIA) at Shannon Airport, I witnessed a new devolvement at Irelands second international airport. Sitting on the main apron in front of the terminal building was an Israeli Air Force 707. After a while a group of military types disembarked and jumped into the “Fixed Base Operator” minibus. They were taken to the Great Southern Hotel where they billeted overnight.

Initially I thought this an emergency landing. Shannon Airport has been used on numerous occasions by the US Air Force to land aircraft in trouble. The latest happening only months ago when a C17 reported to be carrying Helium (yeah right) landed safely.

Today the Israeli Air Force is Back in Shannon.
Logged @ SNN 23/04/06
Logged @ SNN 23/04/06

For the second time in two weeks Shannon Airport the only airplanes sitting on the airfield of Ireland’s second international airport are those used by belligerent foreign powers engaged in crimes against humanity in their quest for hegemony of the Middle East.

Tonight at one of the security zones in the state aerodrome, set up to cater for the illegal war in Iraq, sits two Israeli Air Force Boeing 707 jets transporting members of the Israeli Defence Forces. One of these aircraft is an intelligence communications plane easily spotted by the number of finlike aerials running along the top of the plane.

Although these planes are guarded by members of the Irish Defence forces and An Gardai Siochana this does not seem be adequate for the Israeli Air Force who has left a security detail on board. They have also equipped with Motorola radio units provided by the Irish State.

The number of men in flight suits surpassed the number of flight crew needed to fly a civilian 707 Boeing. Later the planes passengers passed out of the aircraft and piled into the waiting mini bus of the fixed base operators. All members of this company were billeted at the Shannon Airport Great Southern Hotel.

In an incident during a time that mimics today’s nuclear show down between Iran and the west. Deploying a lightening strike bombardment the Israeli Air Force pulverized Saddam Hussein’s atomic ambitions by destroying the Osirak nuclear reactor in June 1981. Using Irelands national Airlines navigation codes, and also disguised in the Aerlingus livery, an Israeli Air Force bomber slipped into a civilian aviation flight path and bombed the Iraqi reactor.

Also sitting the security zone in the middle of the airfield was an ATA military troop carrier. This regular visit is part of the fleet of aircraft that are transporting over 1200 hundred young American soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan through Shannon Airport on a daily basis. This US based airliner is reputedly owned by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) also fondly known as “The Company” to its operatives.

At times like Sunday 23rd of April and today the 5th of May Shannon Airport becomes a militarized zone as the only custom is facilitated by Irelands Dept of Foreign Affairs. It is suspected that Irish Government that foots the landing charges. Its has been reported that it is this department that pays the Irish Aviation Authority for all US military aircraft that over fly Irish Airspace. This information was released through the “Freedom of Information Act” after the state made the argument of revenue from the US military being a positive aspect of its subservient participation in George W. Bush’s “War on Terror”. This in turn makes Shannon Airport a target for retaliation like the bombings in Madrid and London. Last year, in the wake of the so called 7/7 bombings in the centre of London, the people of Shannon and the surrounding areas felt an uneasy sense of their own mortality as it is known world wide that Ireland is a secret member of the “Collation of the Willing”.

Time and Time again the anti-war plane spotters at Shannon Airport have lifted the lid of Bertie Aherns dirty little secrets at Shannon and exposed this government’s total disregard for ethics. Last month saw Irish parliamentarians attack one of our number, ex-army officer, Edward Horgan who went to the European Union to seek a platform to stop the torture flights of the CIA flying through Shannon Airport. This shameful behavior of our representatives in Brussels is well short of the standards acceptable of our elected representatives who talk of investigating the truth at Shannon Airport but deliver a way a white wash for the cronies in the Departments of Transport, Justice and Foreign Affairs.

This smacks of the Fianna Fail baby spitting out its dummy for having to sit through an investigation that it couldn’t suppress like Bertie’s boy the bold Timmy Dooley of who’s tantrum in the house of the Senate stopped a proposal a member of his party to look into the one hundred or more CIA flights that landed at Shannon Airport. Senator Dooley of Co. Clare plays on the fears of the people of Ireland by insinuating that business would be affected a thorough investigation to complement the Foreign Affairs committee in the Dail were submissions were presented by a group of peace activists including Ed Horgan. Senator Dooley who is to run in the next election after winning his ticket at the Clare election convention last month has opened an office in Ennis.

Related Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiraq

Logged @ SNN 5/05/06
Logged @ SNN 5/05/06

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author by avi15publication date Sat May 06, 2006 12:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It shows that the government knows which way is up, even the hate-fiiled antisemites of the Irish left don't. Quite simply, the Israeli Air Force is THE best in the world, bar none. It also uses that skill to uphold the highest ethical standards, protecting both Jewish civilians and Arab civilians (Yes, Arabs get blown up too in discriminate bombings of restaurants, bus stations etc) minimizing, as much as humanly possible, Palestinian civilian casualties. It deals out destruction, as targeted as possible, to Islamofascists.

No doubt these comments will elicit the usual hate fest and worraboutery, instead of reasoned argument.

Related Link: http://www.iaf.org.il/
author by Coilín ÓhAiseadhapublication date Sat May 06, 2006 15:06author address Máigh Nuad, Co. Cill Daraauthor phone Report this post to the editors

I'm tired of the old cliché, trotted out time and again as an all-time favourite in the Zionist propaganda toolkit, that all criticism of Israeli policy represents anti-Semitism.

It may be useful to make two important distinctions in this long-standing debate:
1. Anti-Zionism versus Jew-hatred.
2. Anti-Semitism versus Jew-hatred.

Before I proceed, let me say that I have never met any Irish person who nursed a hatred for Jews.

To my awareness, the contribution of Jews to Irish society is well recognised, as represented for example by Gerald Yael Goldberg, who was elected Lord Mayor of Cork in 1977. Goldberg was well loved and admired by the people of Cork.

In contrast, I have occasionally come across truly hateful comments about Protestants, and considerable prejudice against the English.

To come back to the distinctions:
In the first place, a distinction must be made between opposition to Israel's aggressive militarism, and a hatred of Jews. As a peace-loving person, Israel's long-standing failure to make peace with its neighbours, and particularly its failure to come to terms with the Palestinian Arabs, leaves me dismayed. This does not make me a Jew-hater. In fact, I know that many Jews, and indeed many Israelis, share my dismay.

In the second place, I notice an almost universal failure to distinguish between anti-Semitism and hatred of Jews. Hatred of Jews is only one kind of anti-Semitism. The anti-Semitism of the Nazis was directed against both Jews and Arabs. Let me spell it out for the sake of anybody who may be confused: the Arabs are also Semites, and so Arab-hatred is another kind of anti-Semitism.

I have come across anti-Semitism in Denmark, as exemplified by the comments of a taxi driver who was delighted at the thought that Denmark would participate in the invasion of Iraq, because he thought we should "kill the Arabs". Remember: hatred for Arabs is another kind of anti-Semitism.

This same anti-Semitism rears its ugly head again in the use of derogatory terms such as "ragheads" and "hajis" by American troops in Iraq.

So please, don't insult our intelligence by accusing everybody who criticises Israel of anti-Semitism. We've had enough of that tired old trick. Our sympathy for the dispossessed does not extend to condoning the activities of the Israeli Air Force.

Another interesting rhetorical trick is the coinage of the term "Islamofascism". Avi, what do you think of the converse term, "Judaeofascism"?

Conor: thanks for the great pictures and detailed coverage of the Israeli Air Force's abuse of Ireland's friendship: evidence of Ireland's standing as the "rogue neutral state" par excellence.

Best,
Coilín.

author by Self harm is not the answerpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 15:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yes anti-semite, I must be. Anti-american too apparently. I'd forgotten that if I wasn't with you I was against you. Wonderful argument, superb really. You'd think that after all this time the old "If you worry about an arab life you're an anti-semite" line would have worn a bit thin but no it still seems to be going strong. Ah but now I'm all confused, I'm against my government too, does that make me anti-irish? And I oppose companies like moog, timoney and roadstone supplying state terrorists. But Irish people work there. My God! I'm a bigot! I hate Irish people so I must hate myself! Now hating oneself is grounds for committal, so therefore I guess unless I support my government I must be insane. It all makes so much sense now! That's what democracy is! Unless we blindly support our governments we must be mad! Cheers for clearing that up. Thank goodness Israel is able to give us lessons on tolerance, justice and democracy.

author by Seán Ryanpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 15:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Another excellent job Conor.

I'd not worry too much about the arselickers like Dooley, any tosser can buy a ticket.

Wait till he's going door to door trying to flog his bullshit. Mr. Dooley and others if I get my wish (and I'm feeling lucky) will be picketed as they canvass.

Be nice to see these muppets go door to door with their police escorts as we regale their lack of patriotism and merit via sound systems etc.

We will not elect any more traitors.

And we'll jail the ones we've got.

author by Nuriapublication date Sat May 06, 2006 17:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks Conor for the brilliant article. I'm out of Ireland for a while but it warms my heart to know you are all still holding vigil and doing what you can to expose, raise and bring the issues that need to be brought into the public conscience. This is my first posting on Indymedia, mainly because I'm not good with computers, but now I'm away and out of touch with everyone I wanted to thank all my friends and all the wonderful people who have been part of this same journey to witness and speak truth to power (you are too numerous to count - you know who you are!) Please know that what you are all doing makes all the difference and that you are all in my heart and my prayers.
With love and sincere thanks - nuria
P.S: Paradise Now is on general release this week. Hope some of you will get to see it!

author by Ypublication date Sat May 06, 2006 19:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Using Irelands national Airlines navigation codes, and also disguised in the Aerlingus livery, an Israeli Air Force bomber slipped into a civilian aviation flight path and bombed the Iraqi reactor."

Ok Connor, one thing. As far as i know, the entire bombing of Osirak was carried out by F-16's with F-15s as cover. Its hard to disguise and F-16 or F-15 as an Aer Lingus aircraft, in fact pretty much impossible and why would you want to, it was carried out at night. This bit is definitely a load of bull, something you somehow pulled out of your ass.

You really know diddily squat about the Osirak raid. It was a low level attack to minimise being spotted by radar. No civilian callsigns were used or needed, that would have given away there position.

Now considering your lack of knowledge in aircraft and military business, how can I take your interpretation of what happened as correct?

author by avi15publication date Sat May 06, 2006 19:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If you want a definition of anti-semitism, ask an expert: i.e. a Jew. But before we get to that, many Arabs, whose culture is predominantly anti-semitic, have deliberately muddied the waters, as a way of covering their tracks. They know that anti-semitism, undisguised, is unacceptable to world opinion, so the new strategy is to pretend it doesn't exist by simply confusing the issue. Here, though, is the Oxford Dictionary definition of the term:

anti-Semitism
· n. hostility to or prejudice against Jews.
– DERIVATIVES anti-Semite n. anti-Semitic adj.

See, no mention of Arabs there.

What has given the Arab racists their ability to confuse people is the dictionary definition of semite (OED again):

Semite /"si;mVIt, "sEm-/
· n. a member of a people speaking a Semitic language, in particular the Jews and Arabs.
– ORIGIN from mod. L. Semita, via late L. from Gk SUm ‘Shem’, son of Noah in the Bible, from whom these people are traditionally descended.

In other words, semite refers to both Jews and Arabs.

However, anti-semitism does not. In any case, the whole issue is logically irrelevant, because the phenomenon of Jew-hate exists, whatever what name you choose to give it. If you dispute that, you also dispute - again, logically, the fact of the holocaust, which puts you in agreement with some very nasty people.

Now to clear up another issue: the Nazis did not discriminate against muslim Arabs in anything like the same way as Jews. As evidence for this, we can cite the Palestinian mufti of Jerusalem, who visited Nazi Germany many times, was well received by Hitler personally, met other top Nazis and received considerable aid, both financial and military from that particular vortex of evil. He is known to have stirred up lethal persecutions of Jews in Iraq and Israel/Palestine. There are even photos of him inspecting the Bosnian SS Regiment, which was set up by the Nazis among Bosnian muslims.

I and many others claim that there is an unbroken line of fascist Jew-hate running from Nazi Germany through Palestinian history to the present day. Moreover, there are also statements by Hitler to the effect that Islam was an excellent companion of Nazism, due to its war-like, totalitarian nature.

Finally, the bogus arguments of Jew-haters are well-received by many well-meaning people, only because they are in fact largely ignorant of Jewish history and culture; and what information they have, comes from either the Jew-haters themselves or other ignoramuses. To put it another way, simple sloganized lies stick easily, complex truthful historical arguments do not.

Related Link: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/recruited.html
author by Phuq Heddpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 19:21author address author phone Report this post to the editors

see link below. And I don't know why the Israeli Air Force would be going through SNN to Iraq anyway!

Fun facts: Iran bombed the Osirak reactor before the Israelis did. This was during the time that the USA was still nurturing the dictator Saddam Hussein as a counterbalance to the Iranians. Yes, while Hussein was feeding people into office shredders (never believed that one I have to say, I think they're designed to jam easily, although I can quite believe that Bush feeds black babies into a wood-chipper on his Crawford ranch when he's had a bourbon too many in the evening) the USA was busy helping out the tyrant.

Related Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/7/newsid_3014000/3014623.stm
author by Seán Ryanpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 19:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Chill out.

The only military aircraft I want to see in Irish airspace or on Irish soil is Irish military aircraft. If you think Jewish military aircraft should be exempt from this you're an idiot irregardless as to what faith or race you claim as your own.

This is a supposedly sovereign country. This is what it's about. Don't make it about racism because it isn't.

author by Phuq Heddpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 19:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nazis did not discriminate against muslim Arabs in anything like the same way as Jews.

I think that's undeniably clear and is better supported by the fact that 6 million people identified as "jews" by the authorities were murdered horribly on the basis of that governmental decision.

As evidence for this, we can cite the Palestinian mufti of Jerusalem, who visited Nazi Germany many times, was well received by Hitler personally, met other top Nazis and received considerable aid, both financial and military from that particular vortex of evil. He is known to have stirred up lethal persecutions of Jews in Iraq and Israel/Palestine. There are even photos of him inspecting the Bosnian SS Regiment, which was set up by the Nazis among Bosnian muslims.

That's pretty weak evidence because it's possible to point to a similarly small number of "Jews" who collaborated with the NAZIs in an organised fashion. The worst examples come clearly from the ranks of those that were zionists, specifically the fore-runners of the Likud party.

QUOTE:"
Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the "Stern Gang," among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the "Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany."

Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

"The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans ...""

Related Link: http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
author by MichaelY - iawmpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 19:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just back from a very successful picket/vigil, organised by the iawm, outside the US Embassy in Dublin's Ballsbridge....the theme: STOP WARMONGERING AGAINST IRAN....STOP THE USE OF SHANNON AND BALDONNEL BY THE US MILITARY. It was large, it was colourful, it was powerful and it was a sign of the good wind blowing in our favour.

This thread is about the use of Shannon by Israeli military aircraft...coming after the use of Shannon by other carriers transporting military hardware and Apache helicopters to Israel. The core issue is who, from our side, is conniving with the Israeli Government...why is Shannon used by the Israeli military? Who are these aircraft and helicopters to be used against?

Avi's befuddling nonsense about [anti?]semitism, the Israeli airforce being an ace in the pack [whose pack may one ask], about definitions and semantics of words cannot hide the fact that Shannon is being used as a warport...against our constitutional requirement for neutrality and against the often and loudly expressed wish of our people that we don't want to be any part of Bush's and Israel's wars.....the supporters of the Empire can whine as much as they like about the need to stay quiet because they're afraid the blood money coming out of Dell, Intel and the like may dry up...but we will stop Shannon and Baldonnel being used as warports. Whatever it takes.

OK Avi? Why don't you come to our anti-war plenary meeting next Saturday 13th, in Dublin's Teachers Club, and argue your points.....2.30 in the afternoon in case you're interested. You may learn a few things.

author by avi15publication date Sat May 06, 2006 20:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There were indeed dissident Zionists who sought to have contacts with Nazi Germany. There were understandably differences within the Zionist movement about how best to rescue the Jews of Europe and also fight for independence. However, contrast the small size of these minority groups (e.g. Lehi never had more than 100 members - probably even smaller than the CIRA at its peak) and the political status of the grand mufti of Jerusalem who was the official leader of the Palestinians.

Moreover, warraboutery consists in raising counter-accusations. Logically, counter-accusations have no probative or persuasive value whatsoever, for the simple reason that they are irrelevant to the point they are meant to counter; being based as they are on a completely differnt set of facts.. Their only effect is to confuse and distract. Think about it.

author by Eoin - Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaignpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 20:11author email supportpalestine at ireland dot comauthor address Rm 5, 64 Dame St., D2author phone 01-6770253Report this post to the editors

Israeli Military Land in Shannon

Further information contact: 087 77 67640
06.05.06

The Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign unreservedly condemns the use of Shannon airport by the Israeli airforce.

In a story broken by Indymedia Ireland this morning it was revealed that on the night of the 5th into the 6th of May two more Israeli Air Force 707 carrying military personnel stayed in Shannon while the Irish Defence Forces (IDF) and Gardai provided security for their aircraft, in cooperation with an Israeli security detail.

The military personnel travelling on the two planes stayed in the Shannon Great Southern hotel.

It was further revealed that two weeks ago two Israeli military aircraft also landed at Shannon airport.

Israeli aircraft and airforce personnel have been cited by human rights organisations internationally as being responsible for numerous human rights violations.

In recent times they have been responsible for the extrajudicial killing of Palestinians who are alleged to be involved in military activity against the Israeli military and civilians. According to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, a Gaza based partner of Irish-Aid, since September 2000 the Israeli military has extrajudicially executed 515 people, of whom 175 were non-targeted civilian bystanders.

In a report entitled 'The CLaws of the Celtic Tiger' Amnesty International highlighted the sale of military technology to the Israeli airforce from Ireland and reiterated their "serious concerns" about human rights violations committed by Israel against Palestinian civilians.
* Well done to Indymedia for breaking this story again - can we have it on the front page please? This is too shocking to be true!! - below the IPSC press release*

The IPSC condemns the use of Shannon by the Israeli military and calls on the Irish government to:

- Comply with its Geneva Convention obligations by 'respecting and ensuring respect for international law' and preventing the Israeli military from landing in Ireland;

- to further fulfil this obligation by searching for and prosecuting any members of the Israeli military who maybe responsible for grave breaches of international humanitarian law, in particular the Fourth Geneva Convention - as was done with Major General Doron Almog in the UK on September 11th 2005.

- to end all cooperation, financial, military or otherwise with the Israeli government who has consistently refused to live up to the principles of non-violence; recognising the Palestinian right to statehood; and, respect for international law.

TO READ THE FULL INDYMEDIA IRELAND ARTICLE PLEASE FOLLOW THIS LINK

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/75879

Related Link: http://www.ipsc.ie
author by MichaelY - iawmpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 20:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Logically, counter-accusations have no probative or persuasive value whatsoever, for the simple reason that they are irrelevant to the point they are meant to counter; being based as they are on a completely different set of facts.. Their only effect is to confuse and distract. Think about it.

You said it and you're right. I don't somehow think you figured how your comments apply 100% on your stuff. Check the beginning of this thread avi - please. BTW, I corrected your spelling on the word 'different' line 3. Just in case you accuse me of distorting your message.

author by plane spotterpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 22:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So some Israeli Aircraft have landed at Shannon. What's new.
For decades Shannon has been used as a waypoint for Aircraft of numerous countries military forces. During the 1980s Shannon was a way point for Russian and other eastern european military aircraft. Numerous Arab countries have routed aircraft through Shannon.
A sizable portion of our Search and Rescue services were performed by the Royal Air Force for years.

How about facing some facts. Ireland has been a netural country in name only for decades.

author by Paulpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 22:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There can be absolutely no justification for this whatsoever... I just hope it stops sooner rather than later.

author by raymond deane - IPSCpublication date Sat May 06, 2006 22:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Conor, you're doing sterling work - thanks and congratulations. That our snivelling Irish politicians still pretend to be "pro-Palestinian" while facilitating their oppressors so handsomely is shameful and depressing in the extreme.
As for "anti-Semitism", may I recommend that nobody should bother defending themselves against this canard any more. In his magnificent new book "The Case against Israel" Michael Neumann, the US-born son of Jewish refugees from Hitler's Germany, dismisses the notion that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism as "unworthy of discussion". The argument is the last refuge of the ideological scoundrel. As long as we allow Zionists and their fellow-travellers to tie us up in unnecessary self-defensive knots, we continue to play into their hands.

author by Edward Horgan - Peace and Neutrality Alliancepublication date Sun May 07, 2006 00:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

On Saturday, 6th May, I visited Shannon with Conor Cregan to check reports of suspicious movements of military aircraft and saw four aircraft parked within a special security area. Two were Israeli air force Boeing possibly 720s specially adopted possibly as both communications platforms and as midair refuelling tankers, with registration numbers 275, and 290. The other aircraft were ATA (American Trans Air) and World Airways, of the type seen normally at Shannon on charter to the US military, carrying troops and munitions to Iraq and Afghanistan. The Israeli air force crews were staying at the Great Southern Hotel at Shannon, guarded by an armed member of the Garda special branch, accompanied by what I believe to have been an armed member of the Israeli security services or Mossad. Shortly after I identified myself to the special branch officer his Middle Eastern companion disappeared.

In a neighbouring state, Foreign Minister Jack Straw, lost his job in the cabinet reshuffle, according to Ewen MacAskill of the Guardian, (Irish Times May 6), because Straw opposed British involvement in any US led attack on Iran’s nuclear power plants. There is now speculation in the UK and the US that Bush and Blair, with Israeli support, intend to attack Iranian nuclear facilities, possibly using small or so-called ‘tactical’ nuclear weapons. Both Bush and Blair, lame duck leaders with no chance of further terms of office, want to make their mark in history, and don’t want the Iraq war debacle to be their final curtain. They may already have agreed to the attack on Iran, and the presence in Washington this week of Israeli Mossad chief, may be indicative of a three way military alliance.

The significance therefore of a combined Israeli and US military force at Shannon over the weekend 5/6 May, could be of critical importance. I have been informed separately that the two Israeli fuel tankers may have been intended for refuelling up to 10 fighter jets that are involved in combined US/UK/Israeli exercises. Since these two aircraft did not make emergency landings at Shannon there are virtually no ‘innocent’ explanations for their presence in a neutral state.

Such interconnected events have been played out at Shannon airport over the past seven years, since the Kosovo War in 1999, and since September 11th 2001 in particular. Ireland has not ostensibly been at war with anyone, and we have not been actively torturing anyone. But we, or our Irish Government in our name, have been making war by proxy, and been complicit in the rendition for torture programme, much more directly, because it is now most likely that prisoners have been taken through Shannon for torture. The Irish Government took no steps to prevent such criminal behaviour, and issued the CIA and US military with effective immunity and impunity at Shannon by publicly declaring that no US aircraft would be searched for prisoners or even for nuclear weapons.
The use of nuclear weapons, or weapons with cancer-causing radio active content, has already been confirmed not only in Iraq but also in the Afghanistan War 2001, Kosovo War in 1999, and in the previous Gulf War in 1991. Large amounts of explosives, and armour-piercing projectiles, encased in depleted uranium, have been used in these four wars, with Basra and Baghdad being very seriously contaminated, causing cancers such as leukaemia thousands of children and adults. These unpalatable facts are written off or denied by the US and UK, or minimised as necessary collateral damage to help eliminate Saddam Hussein’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction. Of course Hussein was a mass murderer, but he was a US supported mass murderer for years.

Now the language of international ‘diplomacy’ is beginning to repeat itself. Just as Saddam Hussein was touted to be within months of developing nuclear weapons the same script is being used against Iran. George Bush is again assuring the world that diplomacy will be his first option. In February 2003 we were assured that Ireland would not support war in Iraq without a UN resolution. What part of the word true is it that our leaders don’t understand?

Stanley Kubric is quoted as saying that: “the great nations have always acted like gangsters, and the small nations like prostitutes”.
Ireland has been prostituting itself at Shannon airport especially since 20 march 2003. The good name and the reputation of the people of Ireland has been raped at Shannon airport, and of course we can still live with a soiled name or reputation, but we cannot being back those we helped to kill.

Small states such as Ireland need a strong UN and an enhanced system of international law far more than large states. De Valera, Frank Aiken, Sean McBride and others understood this. The present bunch of Irish leaders, including Fine Gael do not.

Israeli Airforce and US troop carriers at Shannon
Israeli Airforce and US troop carriers at Shannon

author by Conor Creganpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 01:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Shannon Airport is expecting a busy night as US troop movements will raise tonight to levels not seen since the build up to the massacre at Fallujah. Tonight after midnight over eight aircraft chartered by the US military will make a pit-stop at Shannon. Each plane is capable to carry over 300 military personal, their weapons and other armaments.

This evening the airport ground crew was preparing a World Airways MD11 for the start of tonights operations while its human payload took on luxury rations at Shannon Duty free. The two Israeli C147s are also expected to leave tonight as the Sabbath comes to an end.

The airport incident room at Shannon Garda Station is on high alert with the high level of troop movements at Shannon. As resources are stretched at Shannon a uniformed Garda is seconded to the detective unit to watch the Israeli Air Force and Intelligence officers at the Great Southern Hotel.

author by .publication date Sun May 07, 2006 01:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

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World Airways leaving SNN Security Zone
World Airways leaving SNN Security Zone

wa606i.doc_3.jpg

author by .publication date Sun May 07, 2006 01:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

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Young US Troops
Young US Troops

Jobsworths woth didnt hesitate to phone security.
Jobsworths woth didnt hesitate to phone security.

DSgt Mick " Rendition investigation? Well I talked to  few Cleaners" Houlihan
DSgt Mick " Rendition investigation? Well I talked to few Cleaners" Houlihan

author by Bpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 01:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Idiotic letting those planes come anywhere near Irish airspace. We are are a NEUTRAL country and why the heck can't the airport authorities at Shannon comprehend this?? Is it that they're just too thick or what? Those planes are the symbol of zionism which has robbed and plundered before it. It was the image that I was fearing most (to see an Israeli military/gov't plane land on Irish soil).

Lets face it: With this, coupled with all the U.S rendition flights going through Shannon, Ireland is anything but a neutral country. Shame on our politicans for not stepping in to call for a halt to all this.

author by Mike Novackpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 02:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

UH -- I understand the arguments we have been seeing about the impropriety of US warplanes using Shannon because of Irsiah neutrality and the fact that the US is currently a belligerent in wars.

But ISRAEL? Pray tell what country do you imagine that Israel is currently at war with? True, there has never been a peace treaty with Syria or Lebanon (or Iraq for that matter) but you can''t consider a cease fire that has held for longer than most of you have been alive "still a state of war". With Egypt and Jordan there is even a formal peace treaty.

The Palestinian territory? You mean the territory previously occupied by the Egyptians and Jordanians? Unfortunately the Palestinians never have been able to declare their "stateness". Chose not to in 1948 and internal political considerations prevent that action to this day (what prevents a formal decalration of Palestinian statehood is NOT the occupation by Israel since such declarations can be made "in exile" -- but unfortunately for them to decalre their separate "stateness" would be to inplicity recognize that stateness of Israel)

The point here is that OFFICIALLY Israel is not at war with anybody by the same rules that define the rights and obligations of neutrals. It is all well and good to object to the visit of an Israeli warplane (or civilian plane or wandering Israeli civilians) because you object to Israeli policies but NOT giving the excuse "violation of neutrality"

author by blaisepublication date Sun May 07, 2006 06:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

yes Mr Novack the Irish should have nothing whatsoever to do with a country which has practised apartheid on the Palestinians for many years now - who has demeaned and ghetoized an entire people in their little bantus - and there are British-Israel societies and clubs all of the world - which makes perfect sence - but Irish-Israel - no - please - we are a decent bunch of people here, basically, and do not need to associate ourselves with these corrupt, murdering butchers. The association with the US has deeper roots and of course its dangerous too, given all the war mongering their leaders are up to in recent years - but keep Israel are arms length - for this is a truly dangerous nation to align oneself with. Leave them to their own problems and retribution.

author by Edward Horgan - Peace and Neutrality Alliancepublication date Sun May 07, 2006 10:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

US AF KC 135, (similar to Boeing 720)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Usaf.kc135.750pix.jpg,

On Saturday 6th May, accompanied by Conor Cregan, I made a formal request at Shannon Garda Station as follows:
“I Edward Horgan formally request that two Israeli air force aircraft, registration numbers 290 and 275, make probably Boeing 707s (since confirmed as Boeing 707-020, or 720), and the crews and passengers of these aircraft be searched and questioned as to their purposes at Shannon airport. I have reason to believe that weapons are carried on these aircraft and their purposes at Shannon airport may be unlawful.
Signed Edward J Horgan

author by avi15publication date Sun May 07, 2006 11:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

These planes always have an inner security ring operated by armed Israeli personnel 24/7. The Irish army and garda are there as much to protect protesters as to protect the planes and their occupants.

author by Justin Morahan - Peace Peoplepublication date Sun May 07, 2006 13:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Great work, Conor and Ed.

What does our Government think they are doing? Those planes should be searched, as all the US warplanes at Shannon should be searched. But an Irish Government that facilitates them at Shannon will not have such searches carried out.

Gardaí are only paid workers and take their orders from the Government - they are not responsible for taking the decision. The Government is responsible. Bertie Ahern, Mary Harney, Brian Cowen, Michael McDowell, Willie O'Dea, Noel Dempsey, Dermot Ahern, John O'Donoghoe, Micheál Martin, Martin Cullen, Seamus Brennan, Eamon Ó Cuív, Mary Coughlan and Mary Hanafin- every minister and minister-of-state, every Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrat TD and Senator is responsible for ensuring that a search of these planes is carried out and they are also responsible in the first place for hosting the planes at Shannon. For these are the people who comprise the Government and Government parties.

They shirked their job when George Bush and Tony Blair lied their way to a war against Iraq and an unjust occupaton that has turned out to be a quagmire. They waffled about the UN then to gain time. But all the while they were collaborators in secret and when they were exposed they used the old canard that the US was a friendly country and then followed up with the excuse that going along with the Bush agenda was good for our economy.

They must come up with answers fast now - what are Israeli warplanes doing at Shannon and why is the Government giving them the red carpet treatment?

Is there any party or amalgation of parties in Ireland just now that will fight an election to bring back values of honesty to our State and who will re-proclaim our neutrality or who - if what they are now telling us is true, i.e. that we were never neutral - will at least proclaim us to be a free, independent State, and stick to that in practice?

author by Mike Novackpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 14:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ed Hogan et al

Unlawful? On what basis? (of interational law or Irish law)

If you had READ what I wrote you would see that I was NOT suggesting that Ireland SHOULD welcome visits. That's up to you Irish. But what I was saying is that visits to a neutral by warships, aircraft, or soldiers of some country NOT "at war" aren't a violation of neutrality. You have the right to tell them to leave, not to "arrest" or "inspect".

This is a very different situation than the "visiting" US war planes.

By all means go ahead and protest. But with regard to the visiting Israeli planes your protests need to be directed against your own government because their visits aren't illegal unless your government declares them unwelcome. Understand? You can make a case that the US war planes are a violation even if your government doesn't declare them unwelcome but that isn't true in the case of the Israeli planes (and if declared "unwelcome", all that means is that they have X hours to leave. "Internment" does not apply unless the country whose forces are involved is at war with some other country.

author by Seán Ryanpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 15:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Unlawful because they carry munitions and arms as pointed out by avi. (By the way avi it would be quite stupid and illegal too for an Israeli citizen to kill an Irish citizen on Irish soil, irregardless to either of our ideas on sovereignty - another reason that foreign armed personell shouldn't be here).

Unlawful because Israel is in defiance of the UN (has nukes, etc.)

Unlawful for many reasons.

Try figure out a lawful excuse for them being here, (you never know - our desperate government might need to use it)

author by Bpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 16:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mike, I'll take it that your comment was a means of saying we didn't start this war, the 'arabs' did.

author by Ypublication date Sun May 07, 2006 16:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If all weapons were kept on the plane, technically they are on Israeli soil, so this is not unlawful. Correct me if im wrong. It could be described as different if the weapons were taken off the plane, unless of course they had permission.

author by Seán Ryanpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 18:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You need to have permission to bring weapons into Ireland.

There is no part of Shannon airport that is considered to be Israeli soil. The Gardáí have the power to search these planes and that alone should answer your imaginings about sovereignty, technical or otherwise.

author by Bpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 19:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Y,
What??
Any rendition flight which passes through Shannon is an infringement on our constitution. Only a fool would say otherwise... There is no such thing as 'israeli soil' when a plane lands on another countrys soil. Come off it and stop acting like a schoolkid.

author by Conor Creganpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 20:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Last night over 2500 US solders and marines transited through Shannon Airport on their way to the Middle East. This amount of US service personal has well exceeds the current average number of 1200 arriving at Shannon on daily basis.

This logistical operation included eight World Airways MD11s, two North American airbuses and several American Trans Air flights. During the early hours of this morning the state aerodrome was a hive of activity with these chartered aircraft arriving en mass. US military flights have an average turn around of one and a half hours so the 300 or so passengers avail of Shannon’s duty free facilities generating gross revenue of over 25 million euros which the Bertie Ahern’s government has used to put a positive spin on this controversial activity. It is unclear which government pays the discounted landing fees at Shannon Airport.

One Unit of An Gardai Siochana provided security at the Airport last night. Several Guards manned posts around parked aircraft and two marked vehicles patrolled the apron while the Airport police secured the empty check in areas. This is in contrast to the Saturday night security operation around Shannon. With the lions share of Gardai and vehicles the airport only one patrol car was on hand to cover an area from near Ennis town to border of Co. Limerick.

A group of young American backpacker lay sleeping in the arrivals area oblivious to the massive military movements in another part of this deceptively quiet airport. The only obvious signs of this operation were the World Airways flight crews calmly walking through the arrivals hall.

The US vice president Dick Cheney was also an early morning visitor. Cheney’s plane refueled at Shannon after his visit to Croatia was cut short.

Today at 15:50 the first Israeli Air Force Boeing 707 took off and within an hour the other left. This aircraft converted refueling tanker KC 135 departed Shannon at 16:30.

author by .publication date Sun May 07, 2006 20:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

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author by .publication date Sun May 07, 2006 20:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

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author by Mike Novackpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 21:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This exchange is getting stranger and stranger.

Are some of you actually so misinformed as to believe that Israel is currently involved in a WAR with some other country? Which country?

There is currently no WAR in which Israel is involved. Israel is NOT currently "at war" with any Arab country or any other sort of country. Lack of formal diplomatic relations or even unfriendly relationships between countries does not constitute "war" (for the purposes of "neutrality" issues).

Men-o-war of countries not at war with anybody ARE allowed to drop in for visits in neutral ports unless told not to, don't need prior permission, and this isn't considered "bringing arms into the country" (but personel on shore leave, etc. aren't allowed to go around armed).

Again -- I am NOT suggesting that you shouldn't convince your government to "disinvite" visits by Israeli warships/planes. But until and unless they do there is nothing improper going on. with regard to neutrality or Irish laws.

author by blaisepublication date Sun May 07, 2006 22:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mr Avi - it is not considered bigotry to question the government of a country over their past actions, which in this case, happens to be Israel. Please confine your posts to the situation at hand and leave bigotry, or the absence of, out of the equation. Yours is a very simplistic, paranoid response, which is in itself, very telling. We are, I think, having a discussion here regarding the Israeli war planes and their reason for stopovers at Shannon. Questioning a country's motives or reasons for being here, is fair game, as fair as questioning why countries in conflict with Israel would be here as wel, and I can assure you we would question their validity as well, and you would ensure we did.

author by Irishmanpublication date Sun May 07, 2006 23:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mike Novack,
That why the Israelis refer to Jerusalem as 'Jewrusalem'?

author by avi15publication date Sun May 07, 2006 23:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You did not refer to the ogovernment of the state of Israel, only to Israel itself as a collection of people eg 'these corrupt, murdering butchers'. Since Israel is the name the Jewish people calls itself in its own language, so in those terms you have in fact also referred to it. That really is bigotry - a species of anti-semitism - and it is by no means being paranoid to refer to it directly: quite the opposite., in fact

Similarly bigoted, by the way, are unfunny wordplays on the word 'Jew' - unless done by Jews themselves for their own consumption.

It would seem that many people in the fair land of Ireland are ignorant about Jews and Judaism. There is no crime in that, but what is reprehensible, is the refusal to learn when confronted with new information.

Ultimately, a true anti-semite will never admit defeat; no matter how many times he or she loses the intellectual argument. That is because such a person's primary modus operandi is not intellectual but neurotic.

author by John Lannonpublication date Mon May 08, 2006 03:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks for alerting us and for keeping us informed, Conor and Ed.

Few people in Ireland know - or care - that Shannon Airport is being used to facilitate the illegal occupation of one country (Iraq) and to perhaps plan the invasion of another (Iran). They are also unmoved by the fact that it is used by planes that take people to countries where they face brutal interrogations in torture cells. Sadly this situation is likely to continue until the politicians and the (mainstream) media see and hear a lot of objections.

I would therefore encourage as many people as possible to make their concerns known to the Irish authorities. Our Department of Foreign Affairs, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Department of Defence, and Department of Transport are all colluding with the beligerent "coalition of the willing" to destroy the lives of individuals, communities and whole countries in the Middle East. The evidence exists, thanks to the long painstaking work of those who record flight details and chart the airport's military use. But very few will speak the truth about what is really going on ... that we are part of a destructive and dangerous war machine, without any need or justification for us to be.

I am quite sure that he Irish government would have denied use of Shannon Airport and the Great Southern Hotel to officers of Saddam Hussein's brutal regime. Yet it does not object to the Israeli Air Force - a force that has dropped incendiary bombs on civilians, as part of it's country's policy to persecute, dehumanise and destroy the Palestinian people.

Well done again, Conor, Ed et al. As you continue to put in many hours documenting and questioning our own state's behaviour, we should all voice our objections to what is being done in our name, whenever and whereever we can.

J.

author by geoffpublication date Mon May 08, 2006 04:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Avi

Most people on here are against the actions of the Israeli state in it's seizure of Palestinan land to build the Wall and further settlements. They are also against extra judicial killings perpetrated by Israeli soldiers and condemned by many international organistations including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. They do not hate Jews.

Using such charges as anti Semitism might win you a few minutes reprieve in a one to one dialogue or argument, but it is wrong. Many Jewish people throughout the world and in Israel itself condemn the aforementioned abuses.

For you to use the memory of vitims of anti Semitism to deliberatly steer the disacussion away from some very valid points is morally wrong.To charge good people with tthe slur of anti Semitism is equally repugnant. Shame on you.

author by avi15publication date Mon May 08, 2006 10:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I do not direct the charge of anti-semitism indiscriminately at everyone else on this thread who criticizes Israel but only at those who do not primarily use rational arguments. However, remember also my remarks about the wilful refusal to learn when confronted with new information.

In any case, what makes you such an expert on the complex subject of anti-semitism? What are the qualifications you have enabling you to sound off about it?

author by Damonpublication date Mon May 08, 2006 13:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It wasn't bombers that were disguised as Aer Lingus, It was the airborne command, control and refuelling aircraft supporting the mission. (The F-16s had to fly 1000 kms carrying heavy bombs, and were running on fumes after bombing Osirak ) Fake transponder id's etc enabled the support aircraft to fly in civilian lanes over a country they were helping to bomb, as they would appear on air traffic control as Aer Lingus.

I wonder what they think of Aer Lingus in the Middle East, ... they do fly to Dubai, but also the US military was flying to Kuwait in a World Airways plane is Aer Lingus colours.

I guess the question to ask is what where these Israeli jets doing? Returning from US desert exercises, bombing mock-ups of Iranian sites just like USAF was doing with mock ups of Iraqi sites? The US is reluctant to invade Iran with ground forces, but Israel can be called upon to do some of the dirty work, like a blitzkrieg involving small numbers of aircraft, in the hope that the US won't to conduct need further sustained bombing, or a disastrous attempt at invasion....
The US public isn't up for another invasion, but the state of Israel with huge military capability, and US support, doesn't care how it gets on with most of it's neighbours, and the Iranian leaders are rather short of friends., so the IAF would be the logical people to outsource the mission to.

The Israeli Air Force would hardly be so silly as to use Aer Lingus transponder codes for an attack on Iran, but even still, I doubt the Irish government would raise much of an objection.

author by Ironic...publication date Mon May 08, 2006 15:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I know we're well used to irony and untruth is this country, but I can't resist mentioning this.

In its annual "Country Reports on Terrorism", the US State Dept, praised Ireland for co-operation in the "war on terror".
It mentions the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (which allows the CIA to ask the Garda to interrogate people).

but the ironic reference it in relation to Irish Government counter-terrorist measures at our seaports.

"THESE ARRANGEMENTS ARE AIMED AT PREVENTING A TERRORIST STRIKE ON IRELAND OR THE USE OF IRISH PORTS FOR AN ATTACK ON ANOTHER COUNTRY"

Meanwhile... at the airports....

author by blaisepublication date Mon May 08, 2006 16:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mr Avi - you are truly trigger happy with that term 'Anti-Semite'. I should think that being a member of a race so harshly and inhumanely treated by the German government of the past - you would have some kind of compassion for the abhorent treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government of the present. There are many Jewish Israelis would openly admit to the abuses which their government has wrought on their neighbours - the demeaning and subjugation of the Palestinians, the belittling of them, and basically racist behaviour. Surely you would consider these items as possibilities since it has been clearly brought to the fore by your brethren. It is these kinds of charges which make us as Irishmen, feel uncomfortable about Israeli warplanes debasing our sovereign soil. Comprende?

author by avi15publication date Mon May 08, 2006 19:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I understand your ideas perfectly, but that is not how you framed them originally. Whether or not I agree with your arguments, you have now basically made a rational criticism, which you certainly did not do before.

author by fredpublication date Mon May 08, 2006 20:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ed wrote "since confirmed as Boeing 707-020, or 720".

Such confirmation is impossible, because neither aircraft is a 720. You are wrong, sir.

Neither are they KC-135s as suggested by another contributor. A 707 cannot be converted to a KC-135 becuase of different fuselage diameters.

The standard of aircraft recognition and registration transcription on this site is exceptionally poor. Please try harder.

author by geoffpublication date Tue May 09, 2006 01:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Now you are trying to pose an academic treatsie and pseudo analysis on language. Thats sad, because really you are just trying to cloud and, again, steer away the argument.

Simply put; Israel-Wrong to bomb, shoot, kill innocent civilians.
Israel-Very wrong confiscating land to build Wall and settlements.
Also wrong to often let Settlers in Hebron go on the rampage.

Also wrong to steal Palestinian's water.

Many organisations and charities issue damning reports on Israeli abuses.

Therefore; Bad!Bad! Bad to have Israeli military in Shannon. Morally repugnant. Same goes for China, Libya or other countries acting the bollix.

When we condemn China for it's abuses, are we anti Chinese (anti-Sinoism?) No. When we condemn our own government for failing to act on clerical child abuse or police corruption, it does NOT make us anti Irish.

Your great at framing and using verbal gobblydegook, but you never actually have anything to say about the facts, i.e; the above abuses outlined. It is sad to see someone so cynical, that they can glibly ignore such abuses, and talk about constructing and frsming rational arguments.

How rational is theft and murder?Listen, if all you can do is verbally skip and dance about the place with linguistics, you only look shallow and false, and not a real person.

Especially you asking me what qualifies me to have an opinion on anti Semitism. Anti Semitism is another form of hate, like hatred for blacks, or gays, or whoever. Criticising the actions of a given state does not constitute racial, religious or ethnic hate. AGAIN, SHAME ON YOU.

author by Paddypublication date Tue May 09, 2006 02:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Calm down, not a violation, (confirmed)

Apparently there was no breach in protocol with this dual Israeli 707 landing at Shannon.

Summarily Established reports now have it confirmed as transpiring in the following manner:

One Israeli 707 developed technical difficulties regarding pumps, ( en-route to scandanavia) ditched for the earliest port and that happened to be Shannon, Ireland. The Second 707 - citing "dependency through interaction" (i.e under no circumstance could the planes travel separately) - followed and landed at Shannon. The personnel identified themselves as being military but in need of civilian facilities and requested use of Shannon's facilites. This request, after due consultation, was granted.

1.00pm on 25th - Reports cite, three people leaving the first plane and entering TERMINAL 2B, identifying as Non-Hostile Military.

1.30pm - Approx.20 mins later, three persons disembarked from second plane and entered TERMINAL 2B, identifying as Arab "assistants" . ("Airline official" accompanying them).

2.05pm - Second Party (i.e. Arab party) exited terminal 2B, checked by security guards, did not appear injured but apparently were very irate. Apparently, Photos will show that small clumps of stained white paper were presented, inspected (and apparently retained by security) Then, the party was allowed to board plane .

2.20 - (military-like party) exit terminal 2B, checked by security guards, also then allowed to board other plane.

The two planes departed within the hour. The Security report is pending.... but two conclusions are expected by close sources.
Firstly, that the Arab party were well paid employees of the airlines. Secondly, Irish experts could not fix the crapper no matter how hard they tried.

It has been confirmed that apologies have been issued to Israeli Diplomatic contacts.

The clumps of Stained white paper are currently being framed.

author by avi15publication date Tue May 09, 2006 06:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Geoff

You have missed the point totally. Resit this class.

author by Ali H.publication date Tue May 09, 2006 16:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1. Is it absolutely wrong for a state or group to bomb, shoot, kill innocent civilians?
2. Is it absolutely wrong for a state or group to steal the property of others including land, water, education, political freedom etc.?
3. Is it absolutely wrong for a state or group to condemn human rights violations, or restrictions of those rights or to knowlingly allow such violations to occur?

author by R. Isiblepublication date Tue May 09, 2006 18:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I am quite sure that he Irish government would have denied use of Shannon Airport and the Great Southern Hotel to officers of Saddam Hussein's brutal regime.

I'm not. Weren't we busy selling beef to that horrible regime while the US-backed Hussein was committing atrocities and everyone was ignoring the PKK's appeals for international solidarity against Hussein and the Turks? Admittedly the beef was 25 years old and rotten... but still.

author by Geoffpublication date Tue May 09, 2006 23:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He has none. Which is sad. He actually cannot defend or answer for Israeli conduct. All he can do is post statements saying X is such and such. This is sad. It is sad when a man cannot answer truthfully. Such a frame of mind can only lead to long term dementia.

Ali, I don't think Avi will answer your questions either.

author by Avi H.publication date Wed May 10, 2006 14:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

to this particular debate, although they have been canvassed endless times elsewhere. All three of you are missing the point, but logically, that cannot be for intellectual reasons. There is therefore no point continuing. See my earlier posts.

author by geoffpublication date Wed May 10, 2006 15:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Ok. Can Israeli military land at Shannon? Apparantly, they can, according to one of the previous posters, if they get emergency permission i.e.; out of fuel, crash landing, etc.

Grand. Many of us were incorrect on that point. Nonetheless, it is still right to protest any visitation by the Israeli military to our shores. Why? For the simple reason outlined by myself and Ali. Luckily, for Avi H, he now feels he can avoid answering any moral dilemmas as such as this, because the question was simpy can planes land at Shannon. RThe answer, again, is yes, with special permission, in the event of an emergency.

A deeper probe would be should we protest? Yes, for moral reasons. Should we protest the US at Shannon? Yes, for moral and constitutional reasons.

Should Avi H answer our questions regarding human rights abuses perpetrated both by Israeli military and settlers in the West Bank? The answers; It is up to him what way he wishes to answer.

If he wishes to deliver a foggy, phenomenological response that would rival Jurgen Habermas for sheer exscrutiating use of fog inducing language, combined with sluring anyone who condemns human rights abuses against Palestinians as an 'anti Semite', he can.

He can, but obviously he just does not want people to truly respect Israel. I actually have more respect for those right wing settlers. At least they call a spade a spade and tell it like it is, baby.

I have more respect for the psychopath who sghouts "Expel the Arab Enemy" than for the pseudo ramblings of Avi H.

Thinking you can verbally out fox people with side arguments and deflect the argument away from a very fecking simpe question, i.e; Human rights abuses-cool or not cool?, is not going to win Israel support in the long run.

Which means Israel loses. In the long run.

Which is sad.

Israel could have a lot going for itself.

In the long run, I do hope a change in consciousness would fall on Israel and Palestine, like in South Africa.Instead, we see atrocity after atrocity, perpetrated by both the Likudniks and Hamasniks. Palestine itself could have been a secular democracy if Israel hadn't started robbing land to build settlements and cutting off the water supply, amongst other things. Oh well, history is quite often an accident of itself.

I just wish Israeli soldiers would stop shooting kids, like. They're only turning their brothers and sisters into suicide bombers.

Avi H, try to be honest. How about "If we don't kill them, they'll kill us."Then try postulate an alternative.

author by Ali H.publication date Fri May 12, 2006 13:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As you appear to have difficulty in answering multiple questions I'll distill mine down to one simple one.

Q: Do you (Avi H.) believe that the human rights entitlements in their broadest possible sense, should apply equally to all citizens of all states and religions without exception or reservation?

A:?

author by Cormacpublication date Tue Jul 04, 2006 19:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Construction of Berlin-Baghdad Railway project began in late 1800's as part of German-Ottoman alliance. This threatened British interests in several ways. Firstly, it provided Germany with unfettered access to Middle Eastern oil, as the Germans will no longer need to import oil by sea. Secondly, it provided Germany with a quick and efficient method to transport and disperse military supplies and personnel. Thirdly, it provided Germany with unfettered access to colonies in Africa and beyond. In effect, this railway would have cut Britain off from Middle Eastern oil, and would have sidestepped British naval power. If the railway was completed and allowed to operate, British power in the world would be undone. (And replaced with one equally malign, given the ambitions of the major powers in those days, no doubt).

Britain cast around for initiatives to prevent the completion of the railway in the short term, to protect their ownership of the Suez canal, and to set up a situation in which their power could never again be threatened in the region. Enter the World War 1, the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate, the betrayal of the Palestinians, and the establishment of the state of Israel.

We all know what happened in WW1, and if you don't, then rent Laurence of Arabia, and you'll understand. Effectively, the British allied with the Arabs to defeat the Ottoman/German forces, gaining the alliance through promises of Arab independence. When the Arab-British alliance won, the British betrayed their allies, and thus the British mandate began.

Britain had long experience of setting up the classic divide and conquer method through their creation of the bigoted and sectarian oligarchy in Ireland. The method is to import a different people, and set them up with overwhelming power and prosperity, with full state backing, to feed the awareness of difference, to take away property and power from the majority. In this way, an irresolvable situation is created, because the minority will not wish to concede any of their privileges and become fearful of reprisal, and the majority are forced to agitate to try to better their circumstances. The minority must therefore act to suppress the majority. Thus, the British adopted Zionism as a foundation for their bastard child, the "state" of Israel. During the Mandate era, Britain "conceded" more and more territory and power to the Proto-Israeli state, giving away land belonging to the Palestinian people. In doing so they lied again and again about their true intentions, and they dispossesed the Palestinians of their homeland.

Along with the creation of Israel, the British installed "royal" houses, endowing them with great riches and power, in return for their suppression of the arab peoples, and securing the British access to oil. These "royal houses" include the House of Saud, and all other pseudo royal families in the middle east. Later when the Americans were also in on the act, and some of these countries began to implement democratic reform, the British and Americans replaced the democratic governments with the likes of the Shah and Saddam Hussein. (Look it up, the Americans put both of these corrupt dictators in power - so much for being the champion of democracy!). They then supplied these evil men with weapons, conventional, biological, and chemical. This is partly why they were so sure they'd find them recently, evidence or no.

The function of Israel is to create a destabilising force in the middle eastern region for all time, so that Arab independence never arises. It is a core part of the policy that a free and democratic Palestine is never allowed to arise. The purpose is to protect US and British oil supplies and control over the Suez Canal.

It is very unfortunate that a people who suffered so much through their long, distinguished, and sad history in Europe and elsewhere have been bound up and trapped in this long term scheme of the so called Western Powers.

Lest I be accused of "Anti-Semitism", I am not in the slightest bit bigotted on religious or racial grounds, or on any other grounds save for a strong sense of disgust and outrage against injustice and state terrorism.

It is not possible for a state based on religious identity to be a true democracy. The founding fathers of the United States of America recognised this, and for this reason Church and State in the US are separate. This is as it should be. People are free to worship or not worship as their conscience directs. In Ireland we had, at one point, "A protestant state, for a protestant people", and there is nothing but pain, fear, violence, death, and destruction that can ultimately flow from such a benighted policy of a state founded on a religion.

Israel was founded as a Jewish state for a Jewish people. This can never be anything but fundamentally anti-democratic, as homogeneous populations don't exist in the world except in the remotest of places. The middle-east is the cradle of modern human civilisation, and is the most unlikely place on the planet to find a truly homogeneous population. It is highly unlikely that the populations in the region are completely unmixed.

Those who seek a biblical justification for the state of Israel, argue that God supposedly promised the descendants of Abraham sovereignty over the region/people of Israel. (Was it the land or the people he referred to?). The sons of Abraham were Ishmael and Isaac. Supposedly arabs are descended from one, and jews from the other. Incidentally, both are semitic. So, biblically, who owns the land/leads the people of Israel? What does "Anti-Semitic" mean?

Clearly, it is intended in the modern world, that Anti-Semitic refers to anti-jewish bigotry. Opposing Israeli government policy is not anti-semitism. Neither is opposing the fact of existence of the state of Israel. As far as I am concerned, one's racial or religious background has absolutely nothing to do with one's citizenship of a state. Any state that promotes a hierarchy of citizenship based on the religious or racial background of a person is an abomination. Israel is such an abomination, as South Africa was, and as Northern Ireland was, and as Southern Ireland threatened to be (in favour of Catholics) in the years after the revolution.

Our friend says that being anti-Israel is the same as being anti-semitic, because the word Israel refers not only to the state, but also to the people of Israel, who would seem to be the supposed descendents of Abraham's son Isaac. (If any of those biblical characters actually existed, which is subject to question). In any case, you can't have it both ways, it is either the name of the state or the name of the people, if you want to make definitive statements about either. Otherwise, you have to accept that someone using the word Israel is more likely to have referred to the state. In fairness, I wouldn't expect an Israeli to know the origins of the name of our state, or the various peoples who came to settle here. It is a non-argument to say that if someone refers to the Israeli government as murderous butchers, then they are also saying that about the jewish people. What a load of rubbish.

In a democratic state, one can take any position one likes about the government, its policies, its ministers, or its agents, no matter who they are. One can do this without fear of being called a racist, or any other kind of bigot. Avi's arguments are a load of bullshit.

Avi goes on that noone has presented a rational argument. In fact, he has made no argument that makes sense whatsoever.

Here are some rational arguments:

1. Founding a modern democratic state based on a foggy promise that may or may not have been made by a rascist and bigotted god to a bunch of men who had only just managed to walk upright is a bit silly. (And by this last comment I mean that these were very early days in human civilisation - everybody was at the same stage of development - no racism or bigotry from me!)

2. Especially given that every other tribe in the area had a similar god who made similar promises, and probably had similar traditions of oral history. (Most civilisations have their creation mythologies, and their stories about why the earth belongs to them, and not those horrible people over there). In modern society, enlightened people should be able to step away from such mythologies, and create new futures. Mythology is not a valid argument in favour of the existence of Israel.

3. Israel was set up by Britain, and is maintained by the US and Britain as the bulwark of their policy of ongoing instability in the Middle East, and this policy is intended to secure for both countries hegemony over the oil supply and over the Suez Canal. This is not a just or defensible reason to keep the people of an entire region suppressed under one dictatorship or another.

4. Israel is not a democracy, as it doesn't extend the franchise to all residents, and bigotry is inbuilt into the very fabric of the state. At best, Israel is like an ancient Greek city state such as Athens - few had the luxury of citizenships with its rights and benefits. Most were serfs or slaves, upon whose backs the Athenian citizen enjoyed prosperity backed and enforced by overwhelming military force. Anyone who argues that Israel is a democracy in the modern sense doesn't understand the concept of modern democracy.

5. Israel is built on land stolen from people whose families had been in the area for hundreds if not thousands of years. I am pro immigration of anyone who would like to better their position, and who will willingly integrate while bringing some of their own culture, but I am not in favour of colonialism. Israel is the last great western colony, but don't make the mistake of thinking the Americans or British give a toss about the average Israeli, who is to the "western powers" simply useful cannon fodder for their policy. Each subsequent atrocity such as suicide bombings furthers this policy. It cannot be argued that the land upon which Israel is built was not stolen, because it was stolen only just over 70 years ago.

6. Israel's mossad, which is a dreadful organisation that, just like the Israeli government, has no respect for any other nation whatsoever. Recently, mossad agents were prosecuted in New Zealand for attempting to have a passport issued in the name of a tetraplegic who had not spoken in over ten years. Naturally, this passport was not for the tetraplegic gentleman, but for some Mossad agent, no doubt for the usual nefarious purposes. If nothing else, this proves that Israel is a pariah state, and a sponsor of nefarious state backed terrorism.

7. As has been mentioned already, Israel used our national airlines callsigns and livery to support military action, thereby endangering every subsequent flight by Aer Lingus by making them a target. (Thankfully people are smart enough to realise Aer Lingus wouldn't be involved in such actions - the unions would flip about the demarcation issues!). If nothing else, this proves that Israel is a pariah state, and a sponsor of nefarious state backed terrorism.

8. Israel backed Christian Falangists kidnapped and murdered two Irish soldiers who were on peacekeeping duties in Lebanon, with Israeli approval, and possibly Israeli Defence Force involvement (this happened when General Sharon was operating his war crimes and torture camps). Israel still has not even admitted that this occurred under their direction, and has not returned the bodies of our brave and selfless peacekeepers. This proves that Israel doesn't care one whit about the opinions of the international community, as it knows that Britain and the US will ignore any crime committed by Israel, no matter how heinous.

9. The last time we saw communities walled into ghettos, it was the nazi scum in Warsaw walling in the poor jewish people. This in turn led to continued armed resistance by brave jewish people. And thank God for people like that who stand up against tyranny.

10. Israel shelled Irish peacekeepers time and again, in a show of continued defiance of UN Resolutions

11. Israel requires that people have different licence plates on their cars, depending on their ethnic origin. The last time we saw this kind of thing was under the nazi scum regime, when jewish people were forced to wear yellow stars to set them apart from others, and to make them immediately identifiable to the authorities. There is only one reason to set people apart in such a manner, and this is to set people apart for different treatment.

12. While the conflict is presented as two sides equally wrong in pseudo media outlets such as Fox and Sky, in fact there is no such equivalence. The Military might of the Israelis means that the conflict is totally one sided. The reality is that a suicide bomber, however immoral and disgusting the act is, is not in any way comparable to a helicopter launched missile, a round fired from a tank, or a shell fired from a naval vessel. This is a David and Goliath situation, except goliath has learned how to deal with David's sling and shot. (Actually, all mainstream media outlets toe the party line, as they are lazy and follow the Israeli PR machine as set out below).

13. Israel thinks nothing of murderously shelling an innocent family who are picniccing on the beach, and then in the face of blindlingly obvious evidence, continuing to deny the undeniable. If this is not part of an official policy of maintaining a heightened level of terror and stress, then the Israeli government has no control over it's armed forces.

14. Israeli soldiers think nothing of shooting a British journalist in the head, deliberately. If this is not part of an official policy of maintaining a heightened level of terror and stress, then the Israeli government has no control over it's armed forces. It is evidence that Israel is trying to frighten journalists out of areas in which Israel does not control the message.

15. Israeli soldiers deliberately shot a nine year old boy when the boy and his father were caught in a crossfire. If this is not part of an official policy of maintaining a heightened level of terror and stress, then the Israeli government has no control over it's armed forces. Either way, the Israeli government is guilty of crimes against humanity.

16. Mossad happily assassinates people all around the world using such unpleasant materials as Sarin gas. Sarin was last seen on the Tokyo subway, when that lunatic cult leader tried to kill the city, (except when mossad agents use it). This again is evidence that Israel cares not a fig for the laws and constitutions of other countries.

17. The creation of a new version of Newspeak through a perverse warping of language such that Palestinian casualties, civilian or otherwise are always referred to as "militants", and Israeli casualties as victims etc. (Israeli and Palestinian casualties are equally victimised). Palestinian military and police are referred to as gunmen, militants, terrorists etc, while Israeli military and "police" are referred to as security forces. See the pattern? Israeli = good guy, Any Palestinian = bad guy. This approach reveals that Israel is well aware of the evil that it commits, and it attempts to cover it up.

18. Israeli military and mossad have a massive Public Relation arm, whose sole reason to exist is to rapidly prepare press releases written in Israeli Newspeak, so that what is printed in the west by lazy journalists and corrupted media, is printed in the Israeli = good guy, Any Palestinian = bad guy illusion. Lazy journalists receive their copy, pre-written, and they simply relay it on, and collect their pay while ignoring the fact that they collaborate in the misery of two peoples.

19. The bulldozing of Palestinian homes for lack of planning permission, then refusing planning permission to any Palestinian is evidence of Israel's true plan for the Palestinians.

20. The deliberate crushing of Palestinian commerce by closing roads, and enforcing travel restrictions is evidence of Israel's true plan for the Palestinians.

21. The convenient fact that Israeli "courts" always seem to deliver policitally comfortable results for the Israeli government indicates that the Israeli Judiciary are either hopelessly corrupt, or are not independent. An independent judiciary is a fundamental element of a modern democracy, and Israel doesn't have one, ergo, it is not a modern democracy.

All of this comes down to a couple of points:

1. Israel is not a democracy in the modern sense of the word
2. Israel is a terrorist state that will without hesitation kill innocents to maintain it's immoral position
3. Israel intends to remove all Palestinians from the region, either by killing them or by making life so unpleasant that the Palestinians leave. This, under the official definition of genocide, is an act of genocide. The definition of the word Genocide was coined by that great Polish jew Raphael Lemkin, who said about Genocide:

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.

The fact that the Israeli final solution for the Palestinians is carried out over a long period of time changes and hides nothing.

The only way that the area can find peace is as follows:

1. Israel as a state should cease to exist
2. All people within the borders or Palestine and Israel should form a new state, in which all are treated equally.

Without this, both sides are condemned to an eternal opposition, in which hatred, bitterness, and violence become locked in a permanent cycle. An eye for an eye makes us all blind.

The facts are that the Israeli people are there, and they have a right to be there. The Palestinian people are there, and they have a pre-existing right to be there. We should declare that they have an equal right to exist on the land. This being the case, a new constitution is required, and this one should specifically exclude religion as being an irrational basis for organised society. From this the potential for a new and harmonious society can blossom.

There are many jewish people and Israelis who feel like this. Hagit Borer, Susan Greene, Eduardo Cohen, amongst others regularly speak out as jews who recognise the crimes committed by Israel. There is a growing movement amongst the Israeli Defence Force who refuse to take part in attacks on Palestinian civilians. Noam Chomsky is probably the most famous jewish person who takes a stance against state violence.

For my part, I don't hold a belief that the socialist ideologies have much to offer in the successful management of a society and an economy, so the economic theories of those listed above don't hold much water for me. They are a bit anachronistic, and have been proven wrong in general. However, their political analysis of what is going in is spot on. I recommend to anyone of whatever views on the middle east, and on western hegemony in general to read widely, from diametrically opposed views. After all, as Sun Tzu advised, the wise general should know his enemy. Furthermore, not everything said by either side is a lie, and neither will everything be true. The challenge is to sift the reality out of a sea of spin, half-truths, and lies.

I don't have an illusion that the Palestinians are all innocents, and that the leadership are saints. I'm sure there are corrupt people involved at all levels. I'm also sure that there are sincere peope amongst all levels too. Finally, the Palestinian people are the victims in this situation. They never asked for this situation, they didn't carry out the pogroms in Europe against the jews, and they didn't run the ghetto in Warsaw, or the Death Camps. They didn't do this because they were in their own homeland going about their everyday business.

Finally, I think that our government should reverse it's decision to open diplomatic relations with Israel. Any diplomatic staff we have in Israel should be recalled, and our embassies closed. We should then expel any Israeli diplomatic staff and or military staff. Such relations should not be reopened while Israel is a terrorist state, and while they refuse to hand back the bodies of the Irish serviceman they murdered.

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