EU offices occupied (temporarily)

by DM - Labour Party Fri Jun 01, 2007 16:42

Great work lads, better luck next time!
C ya on the 9th!

by DOL - Labour Fri Jun 01, 2007 17:16

keep on at it heads

by Noddy Fri Jun 01, 2007 19:38

Keep your your head up your eyes down and don't let the bastards drag u down!

by nlf Sat Jun 02, 2007 00:24

well done to all involved! great stuff.

by David L - IPSC Sat Jun 02, 2007 09:24

http://www.ipsc.ie/ IPSC website
http://www.stopthewall.org/ Campaign against the apartheid wall
http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml A good news'n'views site about Palestine
http://imeu.net/news/article005371.shtml FAQ on the 1967 war

by SNíB Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:00

Interesting use of the term "occupied".

I suppose the GPO was temporarily occupied yesterday morning when I was in there buying a lottery ticket, and there was full-scale (temporary) occupation of Easons while I bought a newspaper.

How long exactly does someone have to be in a building before it is considered an occupation?

Or is it that the Guards have to come and ask you to leave? Or does the mere fact of saying you are occupying the lobby of a public building make it a political act? You'd normally have to refuse to leave and actually have to stay in a place to stop it being used for its normal function to consider somewhere occupied, but the idea that one or two people can go somewhere for five minutes and leave quietly when asked to by the police certainly makes political action look a lot more appealing.

Hang on to your hats, I'm off to mount a sit-in protest on the benches at Heuston Station (at least until my train comes).

by Johnny H - IPSC Sat Jun 02, 2007 16:15

I'd just like to say a big thank you to all the activists from OSF, CYM, SP, LY, Eirigi and IPSC who turned up yesterday to help with our action! Hopefully we'll see you all again on June 9th for the National Demonstration.

Solidarity, John.

by avi15 Sun Jun 03, 2007 13:11

Gesture politics at its saddest

by Des Sun Jun 03, 2007 14:35

A gesture of protest yes, but the only sad aspect of the whole situation in Palestine is that the EU continues (including Bertie and co) to support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian people from their land, and the silence of the EU on 'extra judicial' killings speaks volumes! not to mention the Zionist version of the Berlin wall

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Sun Jun 03, 2007 15:01

Dear Avi and Des,

Protest expresses relatively overt reaction to events or situations, more often opposed to the status quo. Protesters may organize a protest as a way of publicly and forcefully making their opinions heard in an attempt to influence public opinion or government policy, or may undertake direct action to attempt to directly enact desired changes themselves.

Self-expression can, in theory, in practice or in appearance, be restricted by governmental policy, economic circumstances, religious orthodoxy, social structures, media monopoly or, as in our case, overlapping and at times conflicting political strategies. When such restrictions happen, grumbles or interior opposition may spill over into other areas such as culture or the streets.

For an alternative 'gesture' of protest yesterday, please watch carefully some of our comrades in
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CFJmSunh5Z4

by TD - IPSC Sun Jun 03, 2007 16:50

In solidarity and empathy with the Dublin action, Galway IPSC activists manned an info stall outside Lynch's castle yesterday publicising next Saturday's demo and collecting signatures for our Israeli Blood Diamonds petition.

To book a seat on a hired coach from Galway city to the demo, phone 085 7631431.

“The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls” (Zitzhak Shamir)

“A cancer in the Jewish body that had to be curbed and contained” (Israel Koning, head of the interior ministry’s Galilee division in a 1975 report to PM Rabin describing the Arabs of Israel)

"We eliminated all the terrorist squads except one. The problem is that this one consists of 3.5 million Palestinians" (Israeli officer, January 2004)

Mark Vincent, a Limerick based IPSC activist who gave us solid support today

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." (Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in a Knesset speech)

by john mcdermott - removefiannafail Mon Jun 04, 2007 00:19

it's pissing against the wind-but we need more piss.Good on you guys.

by Ali H. Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:17

The gesture is one of defiance that the Palestinians will not go quitely to the slaughter by their Zionazi jailers. The only thing that's sad is that Zionazis won't make peace with their neighbours after 60 years.

by Red Tito - CYM Mon Jun 04, 2007 17:42

Speeches + Chants outside the EU offices..

One More

by nlf Mon Jun 04, 2007 19:15

good stuff glaway!

by Dave Mon Jun 04, 2007 20:02

Myth:

1) Palestinians want an independent state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza.

Reality:

1) Palestinians believe that a Palestinian State must include the West Bank and Gaza and Israeli territory which is stolen Arab land.
Israel must be destroyed and the Jews must all be killed.

Myth:

2) If Israelis would only recognise the Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza then terrorist attacks against the Jews would cease because this conflict is merely political and based on territory. Give the Palestinians their territory and political independence and Israelis will be garanteed security and peace.

Reality:

2) Palestinians will continue to fight Israel and attack Jews even if the West Bank and Gaza are given independence. This is not a political territorial conflict. It is jihad or holy war. Jews are apes and monkeys according to Palestinians and there will be no peace as long as even a single one is left alive in Israel or in the entire world.

Myth:

3) If Palestinians are given a State then extremist Muslims will cease their hatred of the West.

Reality:

3) Extremist Muslims believe that Islam must unite the entire world. Once Israel is destroyed then Islam must be spread by force through the entire world and the world must be ruled by Sharia Law.
Infidels - Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus etc etc all who do not submit to the will of Allah and recognise Muhammed as his Prophet must be made to submit or must be killed.

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Mon Jun 04, 2007 20:28

ANC Press Statements ancpr@unwembi.co.za

ANC STATEMENT ON WEEK OF SOLIDARITY WITH THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE, 4-9 JUNE
2007

The African National Congress joins a broad range of other organisations in
calling on all South Africans to join the international week of action in
solidarity with the Palestinian people starting today (4 June 2007).

Members and leaders of the ANC throughout the country will this week add
their voice to the global call for an end to the illegal occupation of
Palestinian territory by Israel.

A number of protest activities will take place during the week of 4-10 June,
coinciding with the 40th anniversary of the occupation by Israel of the West
Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

The African National Congress will participate in a number of events
organised to intensify the call for an end to this illegal occupation.

Protests in South Africa are being coordinated by the End the Occupation
Campaign, comprising almost 20 civil society organisations, social
movements, solidarity organisations, political parties and faith-based
organisations.

Today, thirteen years after the end of apartheid, South Africans need to
join hands and act in solidarity with the people of Palestine as they
struggle for the realisation of their basic human rights. These include the
right to self-determination and the return of the people of Palestine.

The ANC in Parliament has called for a debate on Wednesday to discuss the
situation in Palestine and Israel, particularly the recent detention of
members of the Palestinian legislature. On Thursday, Members of Parliament
will participate in a picket in the Cape Town City Centre to highlight this
campaign.

The ANC will be participating in various events in centres around the
country. These will culminate, on Saturday 9 June, in a mass march in Cape
Town and a mass protest meeting at the Johannesburg City Hall.

We call on all South Africans to come out and lend support to the people of
Palestine. We believe that a better world is possible where people can live
in peace and harmony under safe conditions.

Issued by the African National Congress

04 June 2007

For more information contact: Smuts Ngonyama on 082 994 2112

by Dave Mon Jun 04, 2007 21:00

You haven't adressed a single point that I made.

The Palestine "legislators" you mention are senior members of Hamas - Hamas is an Islamic fundementalist terror organisation.
It seeks to spread Islam by terrorising anyone who oppose their goal of replacing Israel with an Islamic theocratic dictatorship - which is their political model for the entire Middle East and the entire world.
Anyone who is different - Israeli Jews for example are targets for death.

The goal of Hamas is not a "better" world where "people can live
in peace and harmony under safe conditions."

Their goal is the liquidation of all Jews and obliterating the state of Israel and replacing it with an Arab Muslim Sharia law state.

Hamas also seeks as do all fundementalist Muslims to spread their barbarism throughout the entire world.

I am an atheist and the idea that an illiterate shepherd sitting in a cave recieving the word of Allah from the angel Gabriel is an utter joke. (so too is Christianity with its virgin births and walking on water or the Jewish faith that requires mutilating babies penises but I leave that for another day).

What is not a joke is that liberals in the West are falling hook line and sinker for this religion of victimhood, self-pity and self-righteousness that is driving these demented Palestinian maniacs to kill Jews and anyone else they decide to hate.

You sir advocate that Israel be thrown to the Islamic lions.
Cut the umbilical cord of Western aid to Israel and there will be another Holocaust you can assured of that.

When the jews are all dead these savages will come looking for your head to hack off with a knife.

by Feyadeen Mon Jun 04, 2007 21:02

Myth - the whole of your post

Reality - the real world, where the Arab states have recently offered a full peace treaty with Israel if the Palestinians are given a state with the 1967 borders, where the PLO signed up to the same deal in 1988 and were strung along like fools for the next twelve years, where even Hamas have said they'll sign a truce if Israel withdraws to its 1967 borders.

Anyone who wants to know more about the real world should come along to this meeting, instead of reading the cut and paste nonsense of pro-Zionist trolls

by Dave Mon Jun 04, 2007 21:21

The Palestinians are not interested in returning to the 1967 borders or any borders.
Any "peace" agreement with Israel is just like all the other false starts in this long excrutiating saga.
When Israel concedes the Palestinians use the breathing space provided to them to plan and launch more attacks.
If Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas to the 1967 borders then the Palestinians will rearm reorganise and launch the final thrust into Israel.
The Muslim fanatics of Hamas and the Arab nationalist fanatics of the PLO have only one goal - the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of the Jews.
Yasser Arafat fashion his headscarf into the shape of the future Palestinian state - between the river and the sea.

If Israel was garanteed its right to exist and garanteed security and peace Israel would be prepared to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza for good.

But when Sharon withdrew from Gaza once again it became a launch pad for Hamas rockets.

When Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon, Hezbollah launched its rockets into Northern Israel.

If Israel gives back the Golan the Syrians will simply reposition their artillery and fire down upon the Jewish farms and towns.

by Feyadeen Mon Jun 04, 2007 21:39

Dave, you can post lies all you like, they remain lies, utterly shameless ones. Only a fool would be convinced by your racist ravings about the "fanatical" Palestinians. You obviously believe they are subhuman filth who must be crushed into the dirt with as much violence and brutality as possible.

Unfortunately for racist fanatics like yourself, the Palestinians have not been crushed, and will not be crushed until they are given a fair, just settlement by the Israeli state. No Israeli government has ever offered the Palestinian people a fully independent state in the full territory of the West Bank and the Gaza strip with no settlements or army bases on its land, with control over its own borders and resources and with a capital in East Jerusalem. Until they do, no Palestinian leader or party can make peace with Israel without accepting the illegal occupation of their people's land.

The evidence that a full Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories would bring peace is overwhelming. Why you imagine resistance to the occupation should end before that happens is a mystery best left to you to understand.

Anyway, I'm off now, I'll leave you to post more lies and racist bilge about the barbaric Muslim hordes. Anyone with an open mind should come along to the meeting on Thursday and hear Michel Warschawski, a Jew and an Israeli citizen who escaped the Holocaust. They should ask him if he fears another Holocaust if the Palestinians are treated like human beings, not cockroaches, by his own people.

by Rascal Tue Jun 05, 2007 07:54

My goodman the points about uniting the world under a forced Islam is crap and to be honest so is the rest of your posts on this thread.You would do well to read the quaran and stop watching fox news before you put your "facts" down in black and white for all to see as you are making a tit of yourself. If properly read the quaran preaches peace and unity among all men as equals.The radical element you see while sitting in your lazy boy sippin a miller and watching fox or CBS is a misinterpritation, manipulation and modern addaption of true Islam for from radicals in history to suit the modern day agenda of said radicals in the now.But even leaving all that aside the occupation of Arab lands is in direct contravention of U.N mandates yet Israeli zionist forces are still backed by the U.S and E.U. There is so much to this situation that you seem to either refuse or fail to see that your points of argument can only hold their ground for a minimal ammount of time in any proper debate about this illegal occupation before being routed out.

by Libertarian Infusion Tue Jun 05, 2007 09:30

Fair play to ye....

by Dave Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:35

You think I'm making stuff up?

1) Palestinians seek to annihilate the Jewish people by holy war:

"Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, vanquish the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet - defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them."

--- Acting Palestinian Legislative Council Speaker Sheikh Ahmad Bahr.

2) There is a deep rooted culture of religious fanaticism in Palestinian society:

"After the martyrdom [operation], my heart was peaceful about Muhammad. I encouraged all my sons to die a martyr's death, and I wish this even for myself. After all this, I prepared myself to receive the body of my son, the pure shahid, in order to look upon him one last time and accept the well-wishers who [came] to us in large numbers and participated in our joy over Muhammad's martyrdom…"

----Umm Nidal, the mother of the shahid [martyr] Muhammad Farhat

"A reliable Hadith [tradition] says: 'The Jews will fight you, but you will be set to rule over them.' What could be more beautiful than this tradition? 'The Jews will fight you' – that is, the Jews have begun to fight us. 'You will be set to rule over them' – Who will set the Muslim to rule over the Jew? Allah… Until the Jew hides behind the rock and the tree."

3) Extremists Muslims in Palestine share the same ideology of global jihadists who seek to conquer the world for Islam:

"But the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, a Jew hides behind me, come and kill him.' Except for the Gharqad tree, which is the tree of the Jews."

"We believe in this Hadith. We are convinced also that this Hadith heralds the spread of Islam and its rule over all the land…"

"Oh beloved, look to the East of the earth, find Japan and the ocean; look to the West of the earth, find [some] country and the ocean. Be assured that these will be owned by the Muslim nation, as the Hadith says… 'from the ocean to the ocean'…"

"Oh Allah, accept our martyrs in the highest heavens…"
"Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day…"
"Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters…"
"Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land…"
"Oh Allah, forgive our sins…"

----Palestinian Authority Imam Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, at the Sheikh 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:02

Dave,

Please read carefully what Rascal wrote above: There is so much to this situation that you seem to either refuse or fail to see that your points of argument can only hold their ground for a minimal amount of time in any proper debate about this illegal occupation before being routed out.
There's hardly any point quoting a choice of head-the-balls, without references, without links, without sources....and trying to imply that these individuals, who may be Palestinians and may be not, assuming they said what you write they said, represent, somehow, the entire Palestinian people, or the Arab nation. It won't work.
It's like me arguing that Dubya represents the thinking of every American or that pitiful (ex) Minister of Injustice articulated our own thinking in this land. You know that's rubbish!
If I engaged you on what Zionist leaders like Herzl or Dubnow said about the 'natives', if I started quoting the Talmudic comparison between asses and Cannanite (see Palestinian) slaves, where would that get us?
The reality is that there is an occupier and an occupied.....a process that started in the early 1900s and continued through '48 and '67....and is still going on.....there are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have been evicted forecefully from their homes and land, who live in camps in terrible conditions, and are starved right now in Gaza, who have to face one of the most aggressive nuclear States in the region....currently planning to attack Iran, possibly Syria and Lebanon again.
So stop trying to derail the thread.....go back to what you're good at.....
From Rascal's quote above I'd choose to believe that YOU FAIL TO SEE REALITY.....don't prove me wrong please.

by Nodin Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:19

Not a culture of martyrdom!!!!.

Not too familiar with Irish history, are you Dave?

The facts of the matter are very simple. Even if they were as you seek to portay them, they still deserve a state of their own. It was good enough for the Germans, and Japanese, I see no reason why that logic stops when it reaches the Palestinians.

by Dave Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:36

I speak as a liberal secular democrat - the majority of Jews in Israel are liberal secular and democratic also.

Israel would happily return to its 1967 borders if Palestinian society was a normal liberal secular democracy like Turkey or Greece or France or Ireland or Australia.

Israel wants to exist in peace and security within the 1967 borders.

But the fact remains that the West Bank and Gaza are armed camps run by terrorist organisations who command the support of the radicalised Muslim population.

The Jewish settlers and extremists who want a greater Israel do not receive my support.

However when those Jewish settlers are being attacked by Muslims fanatics who are attacking them not because they are on Palestinian land but for the sole reason that they are Jews and not Muslims then I have no hesitation in supporting the Israeli army cracking down as forcefully as they possibly can on those Muslim fanatics.

Fatah, Hamas, PFLP, PLO, Islamic Jihad etc fight among themselves constantly but they are united by their hatred of Israel, their hatred of all Jews and their goal of destroying Israel and killing every Jewish man woman and child living in Israel.

Israel is under siege at this very moment - it was forced to build defences to keep Palestinian sucide bombers out of its territory, it must launch military assaults into Palestinian neighbourhood to destroy stockpiles of weapons and it is force to eliminate terrorists leaders that the PA actively assists and is unwilling to arrest in order to protect its citizens from attack.
To the north Hezbollah threatens to recommence its rocket attacks.
In Gaza and the West Bank Hamas fires rockets into Israeli territory.
Syria and Iran fund supply weapons and train Palestinian terrorists who attack Israel.Iran is seeking to acquire nuclear technology and its President has called for Israel to be wiped off the map.

No other nation would tolerate this barbarism.

Israelis remember how the world acted to late to prevent Hitler from killing 6 million Jews.

It is not going to allow 6 million Jews to be killed again.

by Feyadeen Tue Jun 05, 2007 13:00

Dave, it's quite obvious that you are refusing to acknowledging reality as you spout more and more lies. Your racist attitude is plain for all to see - the whole Palestinian nation are fanatics who must be crushed into the dirt with as much violence as possible. The conflict endures because Israel has consistently refused to offer any kind of just settlement to the Palestinians. If Israel came forward tomorrow with the offer of a fully independent state in the whole territory of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and its capital in East Jerusalem, the vast majority of Palestinians would accept it and whatever extremists continued to dream of wiping out the Jews would be totally isolated. This is the plain truth obvious to anyone whose "liberal secular democratic" mind has not been warped by hateful bigotry and racist prejudice. Israel is "besieged" by the Palestinians in much the same way that the Wehrmacht was "besieged" by the people of the Warsaw Ghetto. Your use of the Holocaust to justify racism and oppression shows that you are as ignorant of Jewish history as you are of Palestinian history

by MichaelY - iawm/ipsc Tue Jun 05, 2007 13:21

Dave,

You're not listening, or reading, properly. You're repeating the same nonsense.. I will respond to you with Psalm 137, one of the most hauntingly beautiful passages of the Bible and a virtual anthem of the Zionist cause...and then I'll offer you two quotes from a Haaretz editorial (July 28 '06) and the secular democratic leftist Ilan Shenfeld two days later. Then I will stop....for further info come and listen to Michael Warschawski of Jerusalem's Alternative Information centre in our debate on Thursday evening in the ATGWU Hall (see other thread).

(1) The Psalm
How could we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither!
Let my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth, if I donot remember you,
If I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy.
Remember O LORD,agsinst the Edomites the day of Jerusalem's fall........
O daughter Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall they be who pay you back what you have done to us!
Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!

Do you look askance at the last two lines celebrating vengeance? And if you say, well, that's how people talked then, have a read of this from the Editor-in-chief, of Israel's largest daily :

(2) "...Wipe out villages that host Hezbollah....wash with burning fire the terrorists, their helpers, their collaborators, and those who look the other way, and everyone who smells like Hezbollah, and let their innocent people die....(Yediot Abronot, July 28 '06):

And if that wasn't enugh read now Ilan Shenfeld's secular democratic liberal and (leftist?) diatribe:
(3) ....March on Lebanon and also on Gaza with ploughs and salt. Destroy them to the last inhabitant. Turn them into arid desert, an uninhabited turbid valley. Because we yearned for peace and wanted it.......but they were a wasted gift for those murderers, with beard and Jihad bands.....Make bombs and rain them on villages and towns and houses till they collapse. Kill them, shed their blood, terrify their lives, lest they try again. Save our people and make war"

For more of the secular democratic and peace-loving rant pls check http://antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=9486.

That's all Dave....

Israeli tank following orders in Gaza

by Dave Tue Jun 05, 2007 13:49

"If Israel came forward tomorrow with the offer of a fully independent state in the whole territory of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and its capital in East Jerusalem, the vast majority of Palestinians would accept it and whatever extremists continued to dream of wiping out the Jews would be totally isolated."

Israel made precisely this offer in 2000 and Yasser Arafat rejected it and began the Intifada.

The truth is that the fanaticism which dominates Palestinian politics is the same fanaticism that unifies Al-Qaeda as an umbrella for Islamic fundementalist groups throughout the globe.

This fanaticism seeks nothing less than the destruction of the Jews as a race, the destruction of modern liberal secular society in Western Europe and through the entire world and forcing all the world to submit to the Allah and sharia law or be killed.

You and I are infidels in the eyes of the extremist Muslims who dominate Saudi Arabia and control Mecca or the Mullahs who rule Teheran.

If they are victorious in Iraq they will fight a civil war to control the Middle East and a cvil war between Shia and Sunni communities every city in the world.

Simultaneously they will attack infidels everywhere who they hate

They make no distinction between pagan Africans, Fundementalist Christian Americans, Jewish Israelis, European Atheists, Buddhist or Hindu Indians - all are infidels and all must be forced to submit to Allah and pray to Mecca or be killed.

by Feyadeen Tue Jun 05, 2007 13:57

"Israel made precisely this offer in 2000 and Yasser Arafat rejected it and began the Intifada."

Another pathetic lie. Israel offered nothing of the sort. Israel demanded that Arafat give up a large chunk of the 22% of historic Palestine that the PLO was willing to accept. It wasn't enough for Barak to get 78%, he wanted the remaining 22% to be stacked full of settlements and army bases, with its borders and resources controlled by Israel. Arafat rightly rejected this insulting blackmail.

To repeat, Dave - just because you repeat a lie constantly, doesn't change the fact that it is a lie. You have exposed yourself as a racist fanatic who hates the Palestinians and believes them to be subhuman filth. You are not a secular democrat, you are a racist bigot. I'd much rather depend on the "fanatical" Palestinians to show tolerance than give an unhinged racist like yourself any control over anything.

by Leon Wed Jun 06, 2007 13:53

i thought that the Palestininian Arabs were Christian. If the current popluation of the west bank of the Jordan and the Gaza Strip are Moslem then in what sense are they Palestinian. What distinguishes them from the Moslem Arabs on the east bank of the river Jordan for example.

by Nodin Wed Jun 06, 2007 14:52

Israel would happily return to its 1967 borders if Palestinian society was a normal liberal secular democracy like Turkey or Greece or France or Ireland or Australia.

For one, it doesnt really strike me as being the business of Israel to dictate to Palestinians the kind of state they should have. Secondly, why are they building civillian colonies in the occupied territories if they would "happily return" to the green line?


But the fact remains that the West Bank and Gaza are armed camps run by terrorist organisations who command the support of the radicalised Muslim population..

A population which has become more and more radicalised as the occupation (and US veto) go on. Theres a lesson there.


However when those Jewish settlers are being attacked by Muslims fanatics who are attacking them not because they are on Palestinian land but for the sole reason that they are Jews and not Muslims then I have no hesitation in supporting the Israeli army cracking down as forcefully as they possibly can on those Muslim fanatics...

40% of settlements are built on land confiscated from its Arab owners. The Palestinian population are subject to a form of martial law, the settlers civil Israeli law. They are zones from which Arabs are banned, roads upon which they cannot travel. Settlers attack them in their fields with impunity - and occassionally assistance from - the IDF. Somehow I think that these facts are far more relevant than whether or not the settlers are Jewish. The old call of "they just hate jews" is in fact a tactic to avoid confronting the reality of the occupation, and the justified nature of much of the resistance to it.


Israel is under siege at this very moment - it was forced to build defences to keep Palestinian sucide bombers out of its territory...

Its so under siege its putting forward plans for thousands of new civillian homes in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Thats a very strange kind of siege indeed, dave.

Israel made precisely this offer in 2000 and Yasser Arafat rejected it and began the Intifada.
...

You'll find that they did not make that offer. The proposal on Arab East Jerusalem, for instance, was unworkable. However Arafat was not the most competent of negotiators and his failure to put counter proposals left the way clear for the blame to be laid on him. Regardless, the last negotiations were in 2002/3 in Taba, and you'll find that it was the Israeli side who left the table - never to return, as it was unfortunately Sharon who was elected shortly thereafter.


The truth is that the fanaticism which dominates Palestinian politics is the same fanaticism that unifies Al-Qaeda as an umbrella for Islamic fundementalist groups throughout the globe....

Were you aware that the Palestinian resistance Committee has condemned Al-qaedas actions on occassion?

Their desire for a homeland and freedom from occupation is no different to that of a Kurd, or indeed historically, the Irish.

by stpid answers Wed Jun 06, 2007 15:04

Leon said

"I thought that the Palestininian Arabs were Christian. If the current popluation of the west bank of the Jordan and the Gaza Strip are Moslem then in what sense are they Palestinian. What distinguishes them from the Moslem Arabs on the east bank of the river Jordan for example."

What a starange question?

One could say Leon by your rationale what distinguishes Irish people from British people, or Americans, Candadians, Austarlians, New Zealanders, I mean they are all predominantly white and predominatly christian and speak English.

Palestinians are Christians, Muslim and non beleiver, the fact that the majority share a common language and religion does not mean they are all the same does it? I mean from Morocco to Iraq there are millions of muslim arabs, are you saying they are all the same?

Palestinians are Palestinians like Irish are irish or British are British because they come from Palestine like Irish come from ireland and British come from britain.

by Schmaik Sun Jun 17, 2007 23:06

There's been a lot of talk about myth and reality.

Not once did I read about the water issues that have determined the course of the war effort in the middle east since the identification of its limitations in the early 1900's by the Zionist congress. This is why Eretz Israel needed lands as far north into Lebannon as the Litani River. Israel however does not have control of this water source yet but attempts to divert the Jordan have been successful. Israel is desperate for water. It has depleated all of its groundwater reserves to the point that they have been salinated by being drawn down too much.

This source of water had to be replaced so wars will be fought for Israel to get direct control of the water they need. This was another reason 911 was perpetrated. Israel could have happily defended itself against its neighbours, only time was running out for their water sullies. De-salinization is not much use for agriculture so fresh surface or ground water sources needed to be found if Israels agri economy is to continue to support its population and their lifestyle.

Israel have, on average per capita, 15 times more water available to them per capita than their Palestinian counterparts. The reality is that Israel has sold the Palestinians water back to them at 5 times the price than an Israeli will pay for it. The west bank is a large source of water that the Israeli's have been looking at for a long time. Similarly the Golan Heights. Who is this guy Dave that goes on about Islamic fundamentalists??? Why are spooks not just exposed...I was recently at an antiwar meeting in Dun Laoghaire and there were two in the foyer openly recording attendees coming and going from the meeting on their lap tops. No one appeared to notice.

There's no conspiracy in a country needing resources. My old Hydraulics Professor told me that the coming wars would be about water and would be starting in the middle east. That was 10 years ago. He said that water is more important than the Oil. One has only to fly over Israel and notice the difference water has made to the landscape in Israel compared to their neighbours.

Any commentry on Israeli politics or those of its neighbours is insufficient if you dont take water into consideration. Divulging into religion is not only obsfucating the truth, but it is ignorant of the realities that have beset the region. I have no doubt that Syria, whom also have water shortages like Israel, would likely consider military action to secure resources from Lebannon or elsewhere. What I find astounding is the lack of commentary on water issues in the Middle East. Either this is deliberate misdirection, or information on this resource is being deliberatly made scarce on the Internet. This does not take away from the reality of waters importance. Have a look at where the new boundaries of Israel will end up in the coming years. Notably closer to Water sources. Look for Israel getting access to Iraq's water now that Saddam has been removed and Bechtel has a foot in the door.

Mohammad or the Talmud dont need to be discussed to determine motivations in the middle east. They can be used to justify killing even though a more plausible reason may be to gain more water or institutionalise usery.