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Another Day Another Protest
national |
education |
feature
Sunday December 07, 2008 11:51 by Andrew: (layout seedot) - WSM (personal capacity) wsm_ireland at yahoo dot com
Anarchists and republicans report on their day with the common people
Reporting on Indymedia this evening, Andrew from the Workers Solidarity Movement (disguised as personal capacity) drew lessons from the large crowds who marched to Merrion Square in the bright and crisp December day.
How about a system where production is organised to meet people’s needs, where it would be regarded as insanity to have building workers idle while others go without adequate housing, where the idea of paying farmers not to grow food while hunger is still a daily reality in much of the world would be seen as immoral. This can only work when the means of producing and distributing wealth are owned in common, by all of society. That’s the meaning of socialism.
...... will require the participation of many of our work colleagues, neighbours and friends. It is about the majority rejecting control over us by any minority group (whether it be employers or politicians). If we want the interests of the vast majority to be respected, then the vast majority must be in control. Whatever, the anarchists and republicans were definitely along with the rest of us in learning something from na muinteoirí (teachers for our non-gaeilgeoir readers) today. Despite his intention to try and ignore our first answer and come back within a year with the same treaty for us to ratify the Offaly gentlemen currently holding the seal of Taoiseach (chieftan for the non-gaeilgeoir) will give up easy. You've always been thought to respect the elderly - now they're worth emulating. Reports below the fold - add your own with the publish button. Add your photos and set your rights unlike most other sites. Original report from Andrew - WSM (personal capacity)Somewhere over 50,000 people took part in the INTO organised march through Dublin this afternoon in protest at the education cuts, The was the culmination of a series of regional marches called by the INTO.
The question on everyone's minds this afternoon was 'what next'?
by Student Mon Dec 08, 2008 18:43
"Anarchists and republicans report on their day with the common people"
by Pi Squared R Mon Dec 08, 2008 19:20
The subtitle and first paragraph were added by an indymedia editor and were not part of the original story.
by Libertarian Socialist Mon Dec 08, 2008 20:55
Student - do yourself a favor and read up on Anarchist history before spouting b/s - Im sure your collage has a library.
by Ricardo Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:06
The WSM Definately does identify with the working class in opposition to middle/upper/ruling classes.
by Libertarian socialist Tue Dec 09, 2008 14:02
Ricardo
by hmm Tue Dec 09, 2008 14:27
The common people reference is pretty off putting and does lead to negative connotations with regards anarchists and ignores the number of anarchists both in the WSM and unaligned that are either teachers, members of INTO, parents and students in that they are directly affected by this as well as those suffering from the same cutbacks on third level education and organising to fight back. All of this even before the wider relations of class.
by Andrew Tue Dec 09, 2008 15:25
Thanks to ed for the clarification that The subtitle and first paragraph were added by an indymedia editor and were not part of the original story.
by Cian (WSM Personal Capacity) Tue Dec 09, 2008 15:29
To Ricardo - So the WSM are now "opposed" to the middle class? I think you are confusing terms here. Sociological terms for particular socio-economic groups are in common usage, for instance : working class/middle class/upper class.
by Darren C Tue Dec 09, 2008 21:11
At least 50,000 people participated in a massive march in Dublin on Saturday to protest against education cutbacks announced in October’s budget. After years of insufficient investment to repair the cutbacks of the 1980’s, the government is now using the economic downturn to attack education and other essential public services writes Darren Cogavin reporting from the demonstration.
by seedot Thu Dec 11, 2008 00:48
Quick confirmation that the reference to 'the common people' was a third party sub edit rather than part of the original piece. As the (offending? active? on duty?) editor I can also confirm that it was a rather hamfisted reference to the Pulp song, inspired in part by the IRSP reference to the 'mass of ordinary people'.
by simon Thu Dec 11, 2008 15:19
I don’t know - many teachers are on pretty good wages i.e. 50 euro per hour, not to mention all the benefits - summers in Dubai ect. What about working single mothers on 8-9 euro an hour who cant afford a house and need to pay rent?
by Andrew Thu Dec 11, 2008 21:17
Simon the logic of your position (and it is common enough on the left) is that as soon as a group of workers actually start to improve their wages they move outside the working class. Similar attitudes are displayed towards education. The race to the bottom leaves you with a working class that is composed of a minority of a minority, after all in comparison to an Asylum seeker on 19.20 a week 8 euro a hour is a lot and even the asylum seeker is doing well in comparison with an unpaid slave worker in a Chinese mine or an Indian recycling process.
by Educationalist Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:19
Some interesting facts on education that should frame the debate/ context of this campaign.
by Andrew Fri Dec 12, 2008 15:11
Your not a great 'educationalist' when you carefully select what facts you will and will not give in order to make your argument. That's more the realm of the propagandist.
by Mark C - ASTi (Pers. Caps.) Fri Dec 12, 2008 16:37
I've been meaning to post on this debate, which I have been following closely, and will in a more substantive manner when time permits. But firstly, may I comment on teachers' pay (and preface this by saying I am a teacher myself).
by Trade Unionist Fri Dec 12, 2008 17:20
I think you will note Andrew that the educational facts provided are not meant as an argument. They are not selective. They are simple difficult truths.They speak for themselves. We spend less on education than most countries, and within that expenditure we spend more on wages than most countries. The key challenge is to increase social spending to keep good wages/labour but simultaneously increase spend per student.
by simon Sat Dec 13, 2008 00:09
First Andrew - I don't define class in terms of wage alone. While I consider class in terms of education, wealth and lifestyle it remains rooted in material condition - the base determines the superstructure not the other way around (sorry weber). I think class can be measured by degrees of social power ie the level of control one has over ones own life condition - or indeed over the lives of others. Naturally social power is relative to the specific society so although a supermarket floor worker in Ireland may get paid more than a manager in Somalia, the manager occupies a higher social station relative to his own society.
by Worker Wed Dec 17, 2008 15:42
Class structure/ hierarchy is constantly changing. Maintaining the logic that we are all working class because we sell our labour is no longer applicable to contemporary western capitalism. Class has diversified and workers are rational actors that want to protect their skill-specific group.
by Another Trade Unionist Wed Dec 17, 2008 17:44
"The only way increased social spending coupled with strong workers rights will occur is through a social democratic/ socialist led government."
by Andrew - WSM (personal capacity) Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:59
I see this thread has grown a bit.
by Andrew Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:00
What is it with names chosen and mis-information?
by Common sense Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:06
This thread puts me in my of the Life of Brian. Fact is that there will have to be paycuts. We are all living beyong our means. Don't mind what Bakunin, Marx or anyone has to say. What are your own opinions. What does your heart and mind tell you?
by Observer Fri Dec 19, 2008 15:59
One thing that comes out of this thread and the current economic crisis: Anarchism is a dead and useless ideology.
by Worker Fri Jan 09, 2009 17:01
Quick reflection on previous posts re: understanding class in Ireland. |
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Comments (44 of 44)
Jump To Comment: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44Excellent turnout from the IRSP, and the mass of ordinary people, seeking to stop the cuts in the education system and other public services. Some 50,000 people have been reported to have turned out, irrespective of the cold weather.
IRSP contingent
IRSP contingent
IRSP contingent
IRSP contingent
Poster
We had a perfect chance to re-organise our education system during the economic boom. To re-develop the way students learn the Irish language so they don't despise the course as they're growing up. To give computers to every school so we can actually have a proper IT subject like many other countries who see this as a necessity in modern society. To re-structure the Leaving Certificate so it isn't the grossly outdated exam system it is. To fix the bloody holes in the ceilings!
But no. We tackled road congestion with two-lane motor ways at ninety Euro a foot, and erected a 3 million euro spike (most tourists think it's a communications tower) in the centre of Dublin to commemorate the millennium. More like our gross miss-spending.
I only hope the next time we have a bit of money we know a little better what to do with it.
To go one better , there is enough people now .out marching for the right to be heard perhaps a new shoe factory will be built .
You should march ,as i did today and dont take any nonsence ever again from any of the 166 T.D.s ( thick dopes ) we employ to run our country.
Lurking in the background from all of this man made mayhem are sniggery types ready willing and able to make a complete balls of us given the
opportunity to do so .
I say when the next ''round '' of elections are due we simply demand the C.V. of the beggars on horse back to be scrutinised by us , or do we not have
the courage to do so ?
We the electorate are the employers and its time to make ourselves heard FOREVER.
Every thing is for sale ....Its the price we have to fork out thats the problem .
Stop sucking up to authority and never undersell yourself EVER.
Great turn out on Saturday 06/12/08
Footage of the December 2008 demonstration against education cuts in Dublin. The voice over is the article 'Crisis What Crisis' from Workers Solidarity 106 - see http://www.wsm.ie/story/4796 . The text was written by Paul Bowman. The video ends with a clip of the Shell 2 Sea section of the march carrying their toilet.
The direct link to the video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCJscLMG94E in case you want to rate it, leave a comment or subscribe to our feed.
Caption: Video Id: nCJscLMG94E Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video
This is not a report on the protest. It is another anarchist rant under the title of something different. Seriously lads. Give it a rest. Its getting a bit boring. When people open a web page on a protest they expect to read about the protest not someone telling them what anarchism is, and how it can be achieved.
Anyone wanting to reverse these cuts and develop a quality public service in education are not going to waste their time theorising over some future utopia. They want to read about real-concrete issues about how they can build a campaign against these cuts. Its the same old nonsense with you guys. No matter what the problem the response is always the same - 'take control of your life and become an anarchist'. Get real, and show some real political instinct and get to grips with the actual issue here - Education.
The protest was an excellent turnout. It illustrates what the trade union movement can achieve when it gets organised. If anything it is building this union movement that will reverse the cuts not 'taking control of the means of production yada yada yada".
I agree with "protestor". The lesson to be learned here is that when Trade Unions (or even individual TU members) flex their political muscles it can have a real impact. The level of protest against the recession here in Scotland/UK has not reached the fantastic heights seen in Ireland. But on Aril 24th of this year we had a teacher's strike and demo which showed the possibilities.
Many of us Irish people in exile are eager for more information, detailed reports and photographs to circulate. So please keep them coming.
I also agree that this is not the place for propaganda. It is only right that anarchists can argue their views like everyone else, but this should be done with a bit more tact. Our organisation, the SWP takes a lot of flak for doing them same thing. But we always try to demonstrate that our ideas work in practice rather than simply preaching them and expecting people to become sociliasts because of the eloquence of our sermons.
More info, more pics, more talk about the practical steps.
Were there many University students on this demo? Where people linking the cuts in education to tax cuts for the wealthy? What about the pensioners groups who so recently demonstrated? What are they doing now? Is the Labour party the group who are benefiting from this? What about SF? Where they on the demo?
Answers from anyone are welcome.
Not a very imaginative response, Protestor. How would you know what I expect to read when I open an article on a protest? Education happens to be the issue under discussion. It is not "the" issue, a phrase that seems designed to preclude addressing causes rather than symptoms. Far from illustrating "what the trade union movement can achieve when it gets organised", yesterday was just a well-attended protest, which by itself it will change very little. History has shown us the trade union movement can achieve far, far more.
Response to LP
It is not mean to be an imaginative response. It is simply stating a fact: this is not about the education cutbacks but another example of politiically impotent anarchist propoganda. As the SWP responder states, this is not a time for 'my theory is better than your theory' nonsense. The SWP get tons of flak for doing exactly what the WSM do, that is, use every political activity as an excuse to spin their propaganda rather than engage with real politics. It is futile, boring and directionless. Both justifiably get criticism for adopting the same political strategy.
Back to the real issue:
This campaign will be won by an amalgamation of teachers, parent and pupils directly confronting the minister of education. It will be won by the threat of teachers withdrawing their labour not some fantasy of taking control of the means of production.
So socialism now is some fantasy about taking over control of the means of production, distribution and exchange,
and people who call themseves 'independant socialists' beliveve what? Thats a little too independant for me.
Many thanks for this Andrew - agree with you too that now is a good time to highlight the underlying systemic issues that have brought things to where they are now. I'm sure your observations and suggestions are as relevant as anyone else's.
The INTO have ruled out the possibility of strike action. If so, then that seems like a bad idea. The only thing the government will read into it is that the teachers are not that serious about the protest and so this huge mobilisation of public protest may all amount to little more than a venting exercise which the government wil simply sit out. if teachers and parents don't demand a reversal of the no-strike strategy how can the cuts be reversed? Here's John Carr of INTO on 20/10/08:
http://www.into.ie/text/ROI/publications/PressReleases/...1008/
Sinn Fein was there. I don't know why Sinn Fein uses banners and posters in colours which don't stand out. It must be some rule about always using green but it means they are hard to spot.
You wrote:
"This campaign will be won by an amalgamation of teachers, parent and pupils directly confronting the minister of education. It will be won by the threat of teachers withdrawing their labour not some fantasy of taking control of the means of production."
You've only set a task for one part of your amalgamation, the teachers. How are the other parts supposed to contribute? Couldn't it be won by parents allowing/advising their children to stay away from school? Taking control of the means of production hardly qualifies as a "fantasy" when it's been done successfully before.
You should really educate yourselves before making foolish assertions -
Anarchism while consisting of rich theory is first and foremost about direct action and ''democratic control of the workplace''. Considering the anarchist mode of organization is functioning (at present) I would hardly consider it a form of Utopian idealism. You'l find our core message of equality in organization resonates with the intrinsic wants of many, who desire liberation from there subordinated station within the hierarchy. We believe people are equal in there rights of self determination - capitalism breeds social relations based on subjugation and domination and therefore counteractive to liberty.
Keep spreading you regressive justifications for the current distribution of power over and wel keep engaging in our '' futile'' efforts to lift the veil of upper class hegemony. :)
Caption: Video Id: LPUjR5AReBU Type: Youtube Video
Embedded video Youtube Video
Proper management of our natural resources would have provided more than enough finance to cover our educational needs plus a health service of EXCELLANCE.We deserve better.Renegotiate the GAS/OIL giveaway.
Many of us Irish people in exile are eager for more information, detailed reports and photographs to circulate. So please keep them coming.
...
More info, more pics, more talk about the practical steps. I'll try.
Were there many University students on this demo?I don't think so. I didn't see any Student Union banners at all. Judging by banners and placards, about 90% were INTO, ASTI and TUI and in that order. I presume IFUT were there but I didn't see them myself. Lots of banners from individual schools too, mostly primary ones. From the political side SF was the strongest presence by far with many groups along the length of the march and at least one TD - Aonghus O Snodaigh. The PBPA/SWP were there and Joe Higgins and some comrades from the Socialist Party. There was also a small presence from the Workers Party and the WSM.
Where people linking the cuts in education to tax cuts for the wealthy? Not really. The protest was very focussed on education and the only attempt to put it in a wider context were some references to the bank bailout. But no serious attempt to link it to an analysis of what kind of society we wany and how (and who) should it be paid for.
What about the pensioners groups who so recently demonstrated? No evidence of them on this demo.
What are they doing now? There is a guy who is attempting to form an older persons party. There was a newspaper report that he had or was about to register it as an official political party.
Is the Labour party the group who are benefiting from this? Possibly yes, but not as much as you might expect. Labour under Gilmore seems to have ditched its traditional role as disposable booster rocket whose sole purpose is to launch Fine Gael into government once every generation or so.
What about SF? Where they on the demo? Yes, they were. See above. A fairly sizable presence.
Answers from anyone are welcome.My pleasure to oblige :-)
"Protestor" writes : "Anyone wanting to reverse these cuts and develop a quality public service in education are not going to waste their time theorising over some future utopia."
This is more of the same type of nonsense that is continually spouted about anarchists - that we believe some future utopia will solve all our problems and have nothing to offer in terms of "real world" actions, responses and solutions.
Anyone who has worked with anarchists of the WSM over the years will know that we have plenty to offer in terms of "real world" actions - and when we have the resources, do our best to be active on the ground in campaigns that we feel are progressive and worth the time and effort.
SWP Glasgow posted:
"Our organisation, the SWP takes a lot of flak for doing them same thing. But we always try to demonstrate that our ideas work in practice rather than simply preaching them and expecting people to become sociliasts because of the eloquence of our sermons"
Not quite. The SWP got a lot of flak (or did when it was politically significant in Ireland, which is thankfully no longer the case) because it was unnecessarily divisive within campaigns, prone to setting up "Front" organisations which served only to obscure the SWP's genuine politics, and organised in an authoritarian manner. I don't think the organisation pushing its propoganda was the apex of concern. The use of the verb "Preaching" is also very interesting - so by presenting an analysis of an issue which links the struggle to others and to a broader critique of capitalism, we are "preaching"? Hmmm! Perhaps its "preaching" because you disagree with the analysis but have nothing substantive to offer to critique it? Or would you prefer to stick to "real world" issues? ;)
"Independent Socialist" posted:
"As the SWP responder states, this is not a time for 'my theory is better than your theory' nonsense."
I disagree that theory is of no use to understanding the issues surrounding the crisis in capitalism, or in deciding how we should respond to it - indeed the analysis presented by Paul in the article helps to give a broader context and understanding to the issue, rather than a tunnel-vision focus on a "single-issue". It is important to see the forest for the trees - without a coherent analysis of what is happening and why, how can we respond intelligently to the crisis and to the effects? It sounds like you're just pretending to be anti-intellectual in order to get some kind of "working-class" credibility by showing that you're the only one that's focusing on the "real issue" here - not like those crazy anarchists in their cloud cuckooland. (a cuckooland of cogent analysis and practical suggestions for resistance I might add).
As a side note, it is quite humorous that a self-proclaimed "socialist" is calling workers taking control of the means of production a "fantasy". As "Libertarian Socialist" rightly pointed out above, worker-occupied and controlled factories are not a "fantasy" but a "real world" actuality. It may not be on tomorrow's agenda for Ireland but you are certainly doing your supposed "socialism" no favours by portraying it as "fantasy". Perhaps you would do better to consult a dictionary and relaunch yourself as a social democrat? :)
I've been posting stuff to indymedia for a good few years, a good selection of those reports is at http://www.indymedia.ie/openwire?text_where_mode=AND&au...et=20
For the most parts these are 'what happened' reports, in this case I was actually wanting to post a very brief report with pictures and then move on to working on the video I later posted. Not wanting to just post a line I pasted in a draft someone else had sent me from a more general critique of the crisis. I did wonder if this would be greeted with outrage for trying to politicise / generalise a specific issue but I'm a little surprized that this 'outrage' would come from the left rather than the right.
On the demonstrations there were at least 6 distinct left leaflets and a couple of left newspapers addressing the specifics. Probably anyone motivated enough to turn up could therefore come away with multiple perspectives on this. But I think there is also a strong need to move from the specific to the general and by this I also mean moving beyond a critique of the left or union leadership to a critique of the system itself.
I think our SWP friend is wrong to suggest the SWP come under criticism for doing this. If you look at the threads on their People before Profit front here for instance you'll see the other trots tend to criticise them for the opposite, for hiding their politics within the front to the point where there members don't even use the word socialist. You can argue back and forth with the SP whether this is a smart strategy but its certainly the opposite of what you complain of here.
Odd that while everyone agrees that Sinn Fein had the largest presence on the rally there aren't any pictures of them here or in the papers.
Please find attached...
PDF of WSM leaflet distributed at march 0.94 Mb