Lisbon supporters "peddling phantom terrors to scare us into voting Yes, says Wall Street Journal

by Fred Johnston Fri Sep 18, 2009 14:37

Yes, Patricia, I added this piece to another thread yesterday and thankfully news of the piece, with a link, had been widely circulated. Naturally, I had someone come back to me and rant about how the US wanted to bring down the Euro (no, I'm not kidding!) and that the Wall Street Journal was not a trustworthy journal on the subject of Lisbon! You couldn't make it up. It is disheartening to realise how Irish people have been brain-washed into believing that the same people who flogged us NAMA have our interests at heart over Lisbon. The Wall Street Journal, for my money, got it right: we have been fed lies and misinformation and scare. But can we think for ourselves any more?

by NoLisbonOrNama Fri Sep 18, 2009 15:31

He has often observed that the business papers are frequently the best sources of information, because business leaders need such good information to base their "important" business decisions on.

by Fionn - Lisbon No and NAMA are we sure? Fri Sep 18, 2009 16:43

Yes to Lisbon certainly appear to have resorted to scare tactics. Good to see the New York Times with a view!

Perhaps it is time for a little history. Ireland is unique and it experienced a Land War before and at that time it was the tenants, who were members of the Land League founded by Michael Davitt in 1879.

What is the difference now, one may ask?

We have NAMA and Developers, Risk taking bankers, and empty asset investments in some cases devoid of any value at all. The Land League was born out of something not very different. The difference was Ireland's Wealth was owned, as Land mainly, by Absentee Landlords who were caught out by a Famine and an overpopulated Ireland. There was poverty to starvation levels, emigration and those who with a sense of wrong and a deep feeling and industry to establish a form of social justice for the impoverished and vulnerable. The Landlords would equate to the sentiment we hold for 'Developers, Risk takers in the property market, and speculators today'. Banks are always in the wars because after all they are in the business of making money on money in the form of assets be it land, commodities, mining, oil.

If one was a miner looking for say the commodity Gold, Silver, Copper, you would be looking into the rock-face for a 'seam' to follow and like the rainbow, the hope rests there for a successful Find. It is something similar with Oil. The point I am making here is Ireland as an Island and having gained independence in 1921 must rally itself around factors of Risk-taking, Commodities, Mining, our Seas, our industry, our creativity, our knowledge in order to re-group to cope with this very harsh economic rebuke. Let us state that we understand that the crisis is in fact Global including the US, the UK and Japan and strangely to a lesser degree Europe. Let us acknowledge that we need a structure like NAMA, bearing in mind the Land Commission of 1925 and the similarities that exist i.e. the fabric as distinct from the outcome, to handle as successfully as possible this Economic Crisis.

People are angry. There will be a march on Saturday and there will be many more to come. Fear is the driver to reaction and fear abounds in the market place from the little Island of Ireland to Sunny California to London. We share one factor and that is the desire to own one's own home. People regard their house and any other they buy as an asset that will increase in value and form their identity in life.

There is a time for a change in attitude perhaps. There was a lecture given by Nic Retsinas who is involved in Housing Studies in Harvard, USA. He spoke about the predisposition of Americans to the home ownership ethos. Someone from the Irish Council for social housing said that in Ireland 'Society almost demonised renting' - that the attitude was that you were not 'smart' if you were renting.

This attitude needs to be seriously addressed. The focus needs to factor out the egotistical, narcissistic approach some people have to home ownership and focus on community support, this community then could support an appropriate cache of investors in homes. Here there is a lead to be followed from Europe. This I would suggest makes the NAMA Debate far more important than the Lisbon Vote on 2nd of October 2009.

Before we sign away our authority and lose our Commissioner, maybe we ought to heed the words of the Mr. Fredrik from Sweden and revert to Nice and a 26 plus 1.

Ireland deserves its place in Europe based on its impact since 1973 and its unique experiences. We need to stand proud and Vote No (or postpone the Referendum until we grasp the nettle of NAMA as it stands now or the potential that exists of sitting down the leaders of FG, FF and Labour to work together as heads to propose the best Framework.

People in Ireland are presently aggrieved and rightly so. The Social divide appears to be greater now than ever before which implies that we exchanged one set of Landowners/Landlords for a new breed, and not necessarily the same 'class' and I don't agree with the word people.

TV3 and Vincent Browne is well worth looking at if you have not made up your mind on the Lisbon Vote or if you want to really know whether NAMA is an option or if there should be a 'start from scratch' dimension.

Rita Fagan added great gusto the other night to the plight of a one group of people and Mr. Soden handled his position as a former Banker in an equally transparent way. Knowledge and the salmon, let us remember, communication and now we have the internet, we have twitter, we have mobile phones etc. etc. and we have input, so therefore we can say 'knowledge is no load'

by Simon Sat Sep 19, 2009 14:20

I am totally suspicious of the Wall street Journals claims that the Lisbon pro side is spreading lies - They are not! I agree NAMA is huge price to pay for our weak leadership but we voted them in and now its time to vote them out and look to Europe for some real leadership.

Of course the Americans are worried about anything that would threaten their Economic might! but its time Europe stood up and united and made the planet a safer place after years of American dominance

by mike hogan Sat Sep 19, 2009 14:36

I note that Barosso too has entered the fray by visiting Ireland today, with subtle hints of what will happen when We vote No again and does this man really believe that we are going to take any notice of him who knows not what DEMOCRACY truly is.

A repeat of the No vote is our only course of action only this time with an increased majority!

We need to drive the point home that it is the politicians, with their pumped up egos of self importance that need to listen to us the people, that it is they who are our servants not
us who are theirs!

To vote yes is to capitulate to the fascist forces that are attempting to lead europe into destruction.

by Fred Johnston Sat Sep 19, 2009 16:31

Brian Lenihan told us NAMA had nothing to do with bailing out the banks - the morning after the legislation came down the shares on Irish banks soared. Good for share-holders and stock-holders, many of whom are the good ol' boys who brought about the banks' collapse - useless to the man in the street. Now we are expected to read this guys differently over Lisbon II. It amazes me how we can even contemplate it. We will not be caste into some outer darkness by voting NO. Shannon Airport was given over to the US military without our being consented - do you honestly think similar secret deals will not be done in Europe and carried through before we can blink? Fianna Fáil is leading the charge for a YES vote and that's no surprise, given they are in hock to Big Business and the banks. Remember: this is the same government who are taxing child benefits, for Christ's sake! Say NO and keep the country's dignity. And your own. Get rid of these wasters.

by Fionn - The Power of Peace Sat Sep 19, 2009 17:18

Fred. Well said. 'How can we trust these people'?

Fred, you have explained the 'Foundation' that is the matrix for concerned citizens to work from. We are entering a period of Casino Economics.

The bus took a detour around Stephen Greens so I got off at the nearest stop and walked into the Green and ended up at Anglo Irish Bank just in time to meet the NAMA protesters. The organisation was excellent, Richard Boyd Barrett, and Rita Fagan spoke loud and clear. The Gardai remained on the parameters. There were four Gardai on dabble grey and Chestnut horses waiting in the sidelines. There was some literature given out but there was a call for funds for the costs involved in organising the march for the day and for already organised future marches.

The placards were many and of different concerned interest groups and the usual rainbow socialist groups were present. Some young people asked me what NAMA meant and it made me realise, being middle aged myself, that our young population are yet another unique factor to the whole equation of life. I explained as best I could but unlike me, they do not remember the depression ridden Dublin of the 1980's and in some cases nor do their parents. The future going further is but an unknown factor and their experience does not necessarily make them think of what NAMA or LISBON NO or Yes means to them.

There are many rainbow socialist groups in Ireland and the internet has made people with diverse views create sub groups and now we have many splinter groups under say the heading Socialist. Is it time for a serious re-think about Politics and representation'. We need to consolidate and grasp the meaning of diversity in a form of Unity with the Island of Ireland as the identity and constitution we will abide too.

Last night, the news focused on the economic forum of Irish Diaspora and wealthy exiles that is being held at Farmleigh with our Taoiseach Mr. Cowen at the helm. I commend this initiative but I am disappointed that today's march did not pick up on the positive aspects of the 'Diaspora Theme' initially brought to our attention by David McWilliam's, Economist. This man, I personally regard to be an economist with practicality and a good socialist approach to economics. Declan Ganley, surprisingly is not at this forum nor is Enda Kenny - why did they not attend? Were they invited?

The March, is needed but sadly maybe the socialist vision is too narrow. I picked up a paper called the Sovereign Independent and (www.Sovereignindependent.org

These are the words of Valery Giscard d'Estaing
FORMER French President who headed the Committee that wrote the Lisbon Treaty

'Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly...." What do you think?

"All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way" Hidden and disguised: Have you a view on this?

"What was (already) difficult to understand will become utterly incomprehensible, but the substance has been retained?

I ask Richard Boyd Barrett, Rita Fagan and others to consider these words because be it Lisbon No or NAMA, the core thinking is what needs to be understood for true equity to apply.

Ireland has one area that needs real serious thought and I hope those of the Diaspora in Ireland this weekend really consider the words Bribery and Corruption.

by The Race Horse - The Power of One to make a differenceo Sun Sep 20, 2009 15:11

Nama is a casino gamble. The Question the Irish people have to ask themselves is:

Do you trust this Government, after the chaos with the Bankers and Developers and of course, the members of the legal profession who made millions, who are now those who need to be 'bailed out'?

It is that simple a question.

I don't trust this shower of bastards.

I note that certain members of the legal profession are forming a group. Insurance premiums are most costly now thanks to the misappropriation of funds, and breach of trust by certain members of the Profession. What is the story re. Michael Lynn? Where is the Money? Banks in haven locations are now poised to be more open about their 'hidden sources' of money. This is the product of the Global impetus of Govt. heads, the G20, the World Bank, IMF etc to move away from the de-regulation positions that earmarked the past two decades back to a more regulated 'mindset'.

Who knows NAMA may be a beneficiary to this change in policy over the next Decade - investments are about assets, commodities, cash, derivatives - yes speculation and people willing to take risks.

They Greyhound who is so badly treated once the gamblers are no longer interested in him/her

by Fred Johnston Sun Sep 20, 2009 15:27

A good question: where is Michael Lynn and why isn't he dragged back to Dub lin, or has he done a Lord Lucan? These people - from the laughing-boys like Lynn to John 'Six Figures' O'Donoghue's of this world - clearly believe they live, or lived, in a world of entitlements to which the little people had no access: Gene Kerrigan's piece in today's Sunday Independent is horrifying to read (September 20th) on the kinds of thinking possessed of such a coterie regarding the ordinary ligs like ourselves. Brussels meanwhile is funding what amounts to a coup-by-stealth, tossing huge amounts of money into the 'Yes' vote on Lisbon II in a blatant attempt to influence the democratic process of another country, and no one is saying a word. There is also a nasty story circulating about how a group of Irish 'great and good' celebrated in Spain on hearing of the legitimising of NAMA during the week. If this si true, they should be named and shamed. We live in a country which, sadly, has lost all its political honour and even part of its territory - a whole corner of Shannon Airport is now described (by the US) as an extension of their 'borders.'

by Andreas - democrat by heart Sat Sep 26, 2009 13:41

I´m from Germany and I beg you to voto NO. A lot of people all over Europe have hope in you that you defend democracy and souveranity.
EU Commissioner Charly McCreevy said on 26. Juni 2009 to the Irish Times, that if there had been referendums in all European countries the Lisbon treaty would have been rejected in 95% of these countries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rY0FQH2aQU&feature=play...edded

Greetings @ best wishes
Andreas