"Progressive" Michael D honours those who died under the Union Jack in imperial wars

by jeff Fri Nov 18, 2011 01:18

More warped hard leftist brain fuddled nonsense. Michael D is cherishing "all children of the nation equally" by having attended the Remembrance Day commemoration. Like it or not, there were and are those whose relationship with Britain was warmer than a lot of other citizens of Ireland; This was and is their identity, and many of them died on the Somme because of this, both Catryholic and Protestant. I for one have no interest in wearing a poppy, but if my fellow citizens do, well and good.  As to your mealy mouthed interpretation of the Second World War; pathetic. I'd not be surprised if you thought it acceptable to say this to the men and women who had to liberate Buchenwald. Thankfully, your brand of idiocy of somethimg most young people grow out of. Cherrio, slan abhaile.

by gif Fri Nov 18, 2011 14:44

Guess what Jeff? I doubt he will go to commemorate those who died in the Falls road figfhting for Irish freedom because you know what that muppet is up to. He's the ultimate representative of Westbrit culture, with a tongue wrapped in leftist jargon but in complicity with the antipopular measures of this government. Michael D is part of the golden circle running the show in Ireland he's part of those riasing the VAt, handling our finances to German hands. All of them are an utter disgrace and so are people like Jeff that are in the disgraceful position of having to defend the government of the rich while carrying a labour banner. Be honest for once in your life. Labour stand for cuts and british imperialism, in fact, it is a british party in mentality, in spirit and all.

As for WWII there were partisans who fought the nazis all along and they were crushed in Greece, Belgium, Italy by the yankee liberators and their friends who you seem to highly respect. Go tell that also to the people who died in Dresden. Sure, as good Labour man you welcomed the liberation of Baghdad as well.

by Karina Fri Nov 18, 2011 23:32

cherishing all children equally? Then how come Michael D has not said a word about the cuts and austerity for the next budget? How come it is the poor alone that are made to pay for the crisis while Gilmore defends million-euro bonuses for bankers? how come that Michael D is still in that party called Labour and gives it credibility and legitimacy? how come he has been so silent and has not called for real opposition within the party? That's because the only progressive thing about Michael D is his language which he uses to fool the weakminded as you Jeff.

By the way, neutrality is the only one thing that makes me proud to be Irish still. Michael D tribute to those who died in imperial wars are basically a slap in the face to our neutrality. So that's new Labour position on the issue? that neutrality is non sense and every time Britain starts a war we will have to honour the people who died fighting for the union jack even though we are neutral? so what will we do in 50 years time? honour the Irish mercinaries in Afghanistan and Iraq? I wonder what are people like Roger from PANA still doing in that shameful party.

by jeff Sat Nov 19, 2011 04:08

I'm glad the partisans were crushed in Belgium, Italy et al; they were commies! If it wasn't for the Yanks, we'd have Western Europe under the umbrella of Soviet Tyranny, and all the garbage associated with such a regime; mass starvation, gulags, and a centrally planned economy built on rust.

Of course, commies like gif love to label and tar with the one brush ANYONE who doesn't conform to their skewered, all in one paradigm. So, despite your deluded belief in being a mind reading clarivoyant because you've embraced Trotskyist rubbish, no, amazingly enough, I opposed the attack on Iraq.

I did, however, suppport NATOs intervention in Libya. I've a friend from there, and was sick to my stomuch to hear of anti aircraft guns being used on civilians. Surprise, surprise, Galloway et al opposed NATO's backing of trhe rebels. I've no doubt you lot will label my Libyan friend some sort of elitist, bourgeoisie reactionary. He's actually an ordinary bloke, just like the other Libyans in Dublin, who hated Gaddafi.

Now, banker scum are being bailed out because for the last thirty years, Western Capitalism has changed from being based on actual free trade and production to currency manipulation and gambling. It's has resulted in  being a veritable house of cards thanks to Reaganite/Thatcherite so called "de-regulation". But that's democracy for ya; our nation of plebs voted in the last lot THREE TIMES. Bertie was "great" because Berrtie allowed banks to lend willy nilly and planning permission to be granted likewise. The current government, despite what you lot believe, aren't a bad lot; they've inherited the mess left behind the actiual elite; scumbag FFs, Tony O'Reilly's propaganda empire, and their mates in the IFSC.

This is the bed made by the electorate, and so now we've to sleep in it. However, don't be deluding yourself into thinking somehow that if we all embraced Paramilitary Republican Communism, we'd somehow be on route to the land of milk and honey. That's just another myth embraced by losers, alongside the idea that 'Lenin and Trotsky weren't bad guys, it was all Stalin's fault'.

by Sambam - none Sat Nov 19, 2011 09:19

I wear a poppy. I'm proud to. My grandfather fought in WW2, he was one of the first through the gates of Bergen-Belsen. When he had retired (as a working class man) he was housed in sheltered accomodation by the Royal British Legion in a house paid for by money from the Poppy appeal  

by Sambam - none Sat Nov 19, 2011 09:19

I wear a poppy. I'm proud to. My grandfather fought in WW2, he was one of the first through the gates of Bergen-Belsen. When he had retired (as a working class man) he was housed in sheltered accomodation by the Royal British Legion in a house paid for by money from the Poppy appeal  

by Garden Gnome Sat Nov 19, 2011 09:38

"I'm glad the partisans were crushed in Belgium, Italy et al; they were commies!"

Thatg sums up Labour ideology.

Scumbags.

by jeff Sat Nov 19, 2011 13:17

Yes, Commies are scumbags! Just ask the Tibetans, Falun Gong,or survivors of the cultural revolution. Chinese friend of mine envious to see photos of Real IRA supporters ,arching with flags on Dublin's streets. Hell, I don't see an indymedia China site up and freely running, do you?

by jeff Sat Nov 19, 2011 13:29

It was touching to hear your story about your grandfather. I myself have no want to wear a poppy. I support President Higgins presence at the Remembrance Day, but I wouldn't want him to wear a poppy, for reasons of State Protocol. I'd support him if he were commemorating Irish soldiers in the U.S Armed forces, and even if he did such for the few Irishmen who fought on the side of the Kaiser.

(That goes without saying that such should never be afforded to anyone who did such for the Nazis in WWII! However, for some bizarre reason, we've still got a statue of Sean Russel in Fairview. I don't see anyone wailing about that.

However, neither The President nor any other person holding official office should wear the poppy, no more than they would wear a yellow ribbon (for U.S Soldiers) or any other such equivalent.

by Joe - none Sat Nov 19, 2011 14:39

.........the only thing he has to wear is  a fixed grin while he takes the plaudits from Kevin Myers, a man whom he'd have

opposed  on virtually everything a few short weeks ago.  The real acid test for Higgins will be his position (or lack of one)  

on Corrib  and the people of Erris.  That's where he's really exposed.  If he turns his back on them in the same way  their

Governmen, tLocal Council, EPA,  Bord Pleanála and,  most recently, Taisce have, then we'll know his true colours.

by gif Sun Nov 20, 2011 08:43

Interesting to see how anti-communist Labour has turned and how pro-US they are. Sure they are pro-war now... I wonder just as Karina what the likes of Roger Cole will say about this. Agree with the correct comment -Michael D is now rubbing shoulders with Kevin Myers a remarkable cryptofascist that stands against everything michael D had verbally defended. Now, on commies being scumbags according to jeff the labour guy: China is as communist as Ireland is a Republic. And the memory of the resistance in Europe deserves a little bit more respect. First, because they were the first to take up arms against nazism while the US, the UK and France praised Hitler and Mussolini as a wall of contention against Bolshevism. Churchill in particular was pretty fond of nazism until 1938. Secondly, because the partisans were all sorts in the left, from real socialdemocrats (not labourite gobshites), to communists and anarchists, and trade unionist and people without ideology. They deserve the credits, not those who came to Europe to share the bounty and defend their colonial interests. But then again, this comment of jeff show him and labour for what they really are [abuse removed]

by Karina Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:19

but you forgot to mention that the allies filled western europe with nazi collaborators, particularly west germany and italy. And they left Franco alone because that fascist was no theat to their strategic interest. So much for their anti-fascism. At the end of the day fascism is just another face of the capitalist system labour and Michael D wholeheartedly embrace. No wonder they are in government with the blue shirts.

by W. Finnerty Sun Nov 20, 2011 13:48

"I would be grateful if you would please take steps to ensure that Declan Harney and Dr Ann Jeffers are aware of the fears I have expressed in the two paragraphs immediately above, as soon as possible please: having due regard for the fact that my pension appeal of November 2nd 2011 contains further very clear and well substantiated attempts (by me) to expose extremely serious forms of treasonous crime (connected with unconstitutional legislation and activities) which is being committed by -- among others -- the Governments of the Republic of Ireland, and the United States of America: and which, in the case of the United States of America, is of course directly linked in with the highly provocative warmongering now being conducted by President Obama in the Middle East, and which could -- at literally any moment now -- very suddenly transform itself into a nuclear World War Three involving Russia and China: as a growing number of well informed people are now well aware of."

The above excerpt forms part of an e-mail sent earlier today to President Michael D. Higgins (and a number of others).

The full text of the e-mail in question can be viewed at the following www location:
http://www.humanrightsireland.com/CelticParty/20Novembe...l.htm

by K Mon Nov 21, 2011 01:47

And yet, he thinks WWI and WWII were ok...

by jeff Mon Nov 21, 2011 04:32

Former Nazis made it into both the governments of West Germany and the DDR. Yeah, communists too turned a blind eye to former Nazis within their midst. The simple fact is that the West was pitted against the East.Both needed people who knew the ins and outs of the simple day to day workings of inmfastructural adnministration.

 Yeah, the west did some pretty nasty things in the interests of maintaining freedom from what was, given the bigger picture, a more dangerous, formidable and aggrerssive foe i.e Soviet Communism. The crimes of the latter outstrip those of the former.

As for China being no longer communist, true; they looked accross the ocean to the island of Taiwan, which had the protection of the U.S, and whose people endured a ruthless dictatorship under Cash my Check, sorry, Chiang Kai Shek for some time. What's the result? Taiwan has a prosperous free market social democracy, complete with universal health care and welfare safety net. China made a muck of it's system by employing communism, killing some 50 million people, and now, for the last 30 odd years, trying to raise living standards by liberalising its economy. It is currently the world's second largest economy, and they do great rip offs on Adidas runners and Fred Perry tops. I know because I live here.

However, the rich-poor divide is obscene. Literally around the corner from the Rolex, Cartier and Yves St Laurent boutiques in Sanlitun, Beijing, one will find literal shacks, and tenements that'd make 19th century urban Ireland look like 21st century St.Tropez. Why is this? Communism's legacy. Communism instilled a new elite and hierarchy, and that is how China's psyche works. Taiwan, Hiong Kong and Singapore enjoy prospoerity because of the legacy of their former imperial masters.

And that's the difference between communism and capitalism. The former has its share of atrocities and war crimes, but has many positive attributes too, most importantly the freedom for one to speak their mind. The latter has left a legacy of continued repression. On a microcosmic level, the difference is noted between the two respective adherents. Defenders of social democracy acknowledge and condemn injustices that can, do, and will happen under such a system. Unsurprisenly, defenders of communism are loath to highlight the brutal nature of their idols, instead preferring to slip away under a veneer of blaming 'state capitalism'. Everything is always somebody elses fault.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:52

..outstrip those of the fomer.'

I think the former had a head-start...centuries of global pillaging, slaving, exterminations...and then, as with France after the 1789 overturn, the forces of reaction created a counter-reactive soviet state. Your analysis is simplistic.
As with Germany, it was the established empires resisting the rise of the new powers, we see it today again., with the NATO bloc resisting the emerging BRIC nations.

Read your last paragraph again. You might find an inconsistency between your first and second sentences.

And I think you'll find the greatest gap between wealth and disposessed is in the US, as is the greatest prison population.

And many of the corporations running Chineses sweatshops are western outsourcerers(sic).

by Commie Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:52

"However, the rich-poor divide is obscene. Literally around the corner from the Rolex, Cartier and Yves St Laurent boutiques in Sanlitun, Beijing, one will find literal shacks, and tenements that'd make 19th century urban Ireland look like 21st century St.Tropez. Why is this?"

Well Duh! Its because of the new capitalism!   Under communism the rich poor divide was never so pronounced and obscene as it is now under capitalism. 

Thats what capitalism does. It breeds great inequity between haves and have nots.  The whole point of communism is that everyone is supposed to be treated equally.  There are far less shiny things but the basics are covered for all

Many people who lived through the old soviet times have expressed a wish that they could return to the way things were under communism. It had many problems, not least comrade stalins paranoid state repression, but apparently they preferred the way people were given a roof over their head, food, health care and a good education instead of being left to rot on the street with none of the above  as prices soared and predatory oligarchs stole all their stuff.

your foaming knee jerk anti communist propaganda is hilarious.

by jeff Mon Nov 21, 2011 13:35

My analysis is correct. Communism had an oligarchy to begin with. Once they went capitalist, they didn't try for some social democracy, they went full on free market privatise all fun run, and siphoned off all the wealth. Democracy created some checks and balances which is why Taiwan is the way it is today while China is an obscene joke, the party apparatchiks riding the crest of the wave of unaccountability.

Communism doesn't work. It's a system built on the premise of an egalitarian equality, but ends up being bigger a con trick than dreamt up by any sleazy cocaine tooting banker on Wall Street.

.

by jeff Mon Nov 21, 2011 13:41

Ooops!An inconsistancy indeed. I meant the latter is the lesser evil, of course. Alas, to err is only human. You'll never hear a commie admit to that though, will ya?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 21, 2011 13:44

you've got the plague on all your houses together.

But your opening from the presumptious conclusion that your '..analysis is correct' rings dictatorial. No room for democratic dialogue there then.

by jeff Mon Nov 21, 2011 13:48

Gif I think mentioned somethimng about partisans being not just commies, but anarchists, social democrats, trade unionists et al. The glaring difference between the Ameriucan and Soviet zones of occupation was that the Soviets reopened the likes of Ravensbruck in order to provide new "homes" for any non communist former partisan.

In the meantime, in Western Europe, such political persuasions, including communists, had a great deal more leverage in choosing where they could live, or what they could do...

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 21, 2011 14:05

we're INSIDE  the imperial tent. Try 'Hitler's beneficiaries', How the Nazis bought the German people, by Gotz Aly(Verso, 2007) for a breakdown on imperial finance and transfers for the subjugated. Same reason the Brits had the wealth of the world to placate their own. And still do.

Then factor in the history of Latin America and African America(oh, and the Caribean) lace it with the million exterminated in Indonesia, the uncounted of Africa(yeah, them commies caused famines, but it was laisses faire capitalism gave us ours), and come again on your pristine west theory.

Or was it communism wiped the Cherokee and Aborigine up the reserve?You're off balance.

by jeff Mon Nov 21, 2011 14:20

Listen man, we're on about the 20th century here, modern social democracy in 'Western Europe' (:p) with its universal sufferage and disengagement with hithereto monarchies, versus the gulags and personality cults of Sovietism. If you want to start bringing up the 19th century 'scramble for Africa' and all its woes, well why not start harking back to the Roman Empire?

Fact is, this whole discussion began when someone got upset cos Michael D attended a Remembrance Sunday ceremony, followed by me laughing at commies and their deluded sense of self worth. Now it's a battle of which idiot-ology was worse in the aftermath of WWII. I know for one that if I had to choose, I'd have rather have been born west of Der Maur...

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 21, 2011 14:35

..your horizon might stop at the twentieth century.

Some of us have a little more capacity and range. Start growing your brain, its never too late.

West of Der Maur included Belsen..even with your rigid limitations. All the western powers wanted Hitler to remove the commies, and hoped he would. Britannia offered to carve up the planet with Germany...provided their turf wasn't infringed.

Try a library, before going dictatorial.

by M.Bradshaw - V.LP.S. Member Mon Nov 21, 2011 14:47

Michael D. Higgins would be well advised to look out one of his many windows early in the morning

and see exactly what the real wars of late have produced in the form of displaced people from their

homes , he could amble through the phoenix park and witness the homeless people arising for yet another day

to face the elements and all it brings , it is not too much to ask of a man of the people to start at the bottom

and by doing so he could climb to the top of his game by taking in the victims of corruption who have been either

fleeced by the gurrier element who practice their idea of the Law which has more than likely led these poor

unfortunate people to their exclusive address not far from the white house Michael D now resides in as a result

of his supporters who voted him in and compare the homeless people who were voted in to their address perhaps

without a supporter to their name ;

by jeff Mon Nov 21, 2011 14:54

...and imagine if you will, for a minute, for arguments sake...

A giant terrestrial being somehow gives you the option of being reincarnated...in the past!

Specifically, 1970s Berlin. Which side of Der Maur do you want to grow up on?

Think carefully now. In the West, you can get to see Bowie play Live! You might even get to hang out with Iggy Pop.

In Der Ost Sektor, not only will you be forbidden from seeing the Return of The Thin White Duke, throwing darts in lovers eyes. You will be questioned and scrutinised as to why you might want to see or listen to Bowie attributing his problems to the side affects of the cocaine in the first place. This will eventually lead to the Stasi blocking and styming any limited opportunity you may have wished to pursue in that shoddy excuse of a state, the 'land of anti-fascism.'.

What's it to be, East or West? Deep breath now...Good luck.

by Rational Ecologist. Mon Nov 21, 2011 15:04

Commemoratiion v glorification. Praise from Myers is indeed worrying.

by jeff Mon Nov 21, 2011 15:49

Myers got the gig of speaking at the Remembrance ceremony because he had been quite vocal (no surprises there) about commemorrating the Irish soldiers of World War I and II. Thus, while Myers and President Higgins disagree on many points, one could argue they shared the space to commemorate those soldiers.

 I doubt very much the President was taken aside by Myers to discuss some grand conspiratorial scheme together, the two of them sniggering like a pair of sinister villians that jumped out of a script page from 'The League of Gentlemen'...

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Mon Nov 21, 2011 16:16

I've lived in Berlin, so i may just be a little more familiar with the maur than you, jeff.

I've also lived in SA under apartheid and a few other places, including britain and the US. I dont need a wet-nosed bopper to educate my sense of political perspective. Nor to attribute attitudes I have not expressed.

I'll leave you to your evening troll.

by gif Mon Nov 21, 2011 23:31

first you justify the participation in imperial wars, then you justifiy annihilating the left in western europe, then you make a fool of yourself by saying China is communist (that is the most capitalist country in the world, with over 3,000 US sweathshops) and now you end up declaring Kevin Myers to be a respectable chap. What's next? defending racism, the use of atomic bombs, wife-bashing and other sh*t Myers defends? you reflect very well the opportunistic nature of labour, they get into realpolitik and end up in bed with unsavory elements of all kind, from fascists to bigots, to free market advocates.

And you are a remarkable dictator in your little dictatorial world of realpolitik. Go and lick Michael D's ars* if it makes you happy, I don't care, there will always be slavish muppets in the world who dance to the tune of those with power.

by jeff Tue Nov 22, 2011 02:05

“first you justify the participation in imperial wars”,

Well, better the Yanks than the Nazis

 “then you justifiy annihilating the left in western europe,”

No, I justified communists being contained, given the very undemocratic approach their masters in Moscow were taking with the Poles, Hungarians et al. As far as I know, there wasn’t a single democratic country in Western Europe that banned their respective communist parties (the exceptions being Greece, Portugal and Spain being fascistic dictatorships during most of the Cold War). I don’t recall any liberal/pro capitalist parties being allowed the same privilege behind the Iron Curtain.

“then you make a fool of yourself by saying China is communist (that is the most capitalist country in the world, with over 3,000 US sweatshops)”

Context is always something angry reds like to prefix with ‘taken out of’. My point was, again, that communism created an unaccountable elite. Thus, when these elites took on capitalism, they siphoned off the wealth for themselves. Taiwan, meanwhile, under the protection of the U.S umbrella, today has a free economy, but without the obscene unaccountability and  rich-poor divide that characterises China. Why? Red China has no concept of checks and balances, thanks to it’s hitherto legacy of communism.

“and now you end up declaring Kevin Myers to be a respectable chap.”

 Myers isn’t my favourite person. I ceratinly didn't declare him to be "a respectable chap".However, with sole regard to Remembrance Day commemorations, Myers has been vocal on such for a number of years. Thus, himself and the President found common ground in what is basically a human gesture of remembrance. They can set aside their otherwise irreconcilable differences for this one ceremony. It’s called being an adult.

“What's next? defending racism, the use of atomic bombs, wife-bashing and other sh*t Myers defends?”

No, much worse. I plan to get initiated into the Freemasons, practice ancient Sumerian rituals to establish contact with extraterrestrial beings, who in turn will summon Nazi UFOs from Antarctica to conquer the planet, and help Israel to take over the Middle East. In return, I will receive a free lifetime subscription to Fox News, and vouchers for friends to eat at Supermacs on O’Connell street.

“ you reflect very well the opportunistic nature of labour, they get into realpolitik and end up in bed with unsavoury elements of all kind, from fascists to bigots, to free market advocates. “

Yes, we are well kinky. We enjoy Jacuzzis, backrubs and leather clad role play too.Variety and experimentation are the spices of life, and they certtainly top trump any fantasies you may have of gulags.

“And you are a remarkable dictator in your little dictatorial world of realpolitik. Go and lick Michael D's ars* if it makes you happy, I don't care, there will always be slavish muppets in the world who dance to the tune of those with power.”

It’s been an enlightening, mature, and fruitful exchange of ideas. I wish the best, Sir.

by jeff Tue Nov 22, 2011 02:18

"I've lived in Berlin, so i may just be a little more familiar with the maur than you, jeff."

You may well be indeed, but you never answered my simple question. If you had to live in Berlin during the Cold War, where would you prefer to live?

"I've also lived in SA under apartheid and a few other places, including britain and the US. I dont need a wet-nosed bopper to educate my sense of political perspective. Nor to attribute attitudes I have not expressed."

No, I guess your penchant for globe trotting makes you impervious to any criticism. Hey! The Baader Meinhoff gang did a bit of travelling around the world too! No wonder they were right about everything!

"I'll leave you to your evening troll."

Sweet. I guess a proper discussion or even a concrete answer to my question to you about The Berlin Wall is out of the question then, is it? If I am correct, trolling involves hurling insults at people online, such as refering to them as "boy", or other posters who use ephitats such as "scumbag" , and tell me to "go lick Michael D's arse." I came on here expressing views on others views. I didn't resort to infantile name calling. Bursting people's ideological balloons isn't trolling, but hurling juvenile slurs at people is. Thus, there is no "evening troll" for me to sign off on. Cherrio.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Tue Nov 22, 2011 16:34

Well allow me refer you to your 'commies are scumbags' comment above. Need I provide coordinates or can you find it?

Or your 'banker scum' comment?Very nuanced, particularly for one so enamoured of capitalism.

But you can address anyone as you please, no one can refer to your actual juvenility.

If you are so fixated on my Berlin days(slightly off track?), i was there during the cold war, in the west, and that had three sides to it too. I didn't get more than a visit to the east. Unlike you I dont feel qualified to judge it  but generally hold to the preference of the tide that saw mass exodus from the east(recently destroyed by your capitalist nazi west) on its crusade against the red peril.


My turn. Which side of the barricade would you have been on in Stalingrad?

I suspect the west, but you answer for yourself. I wont follow suit by prejudging and generalising you.

Oh and due to your amnesia I feel obliged to remind it was you wrote 'My analysis is correct', not the one you claim is claiming to be 'impervious to criticism'. Nor did you reply to the statement that this is more dictatorial than your democratic eulogising of your idealised 'west'. Even by your definition you qualify as trolling. Read your own posts if you wont read anyone elses without projecting your ignorance onto them.

Stralingrad?I do hope you prove my suspicions wrong.

by jeff Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:46

If I was a Russian, I may well have kept my head down to avoid the gulags until the nazis attacked and then defended my city. Or I may well have been released from a gulag to fight the nazis. (As an aside, tell me this, if a Jewish person is an anti-Communist, does this make trhem a Nazi? I hardly think so)

If I was a German, who knows? I might have been psychologically weak enough and ended up enjoying massacaring people. Reading about Stankly Milgram's experiments makes one quiver at the thought of what darkness lies within us all. Christopher Browning's 'Ordinary Men' is an enlightenigh read.Hopefully, I might have been angry enough to be ballsy enough to get an adrenelin rush and take part in the White Rose resistance. Who knows?

So maybe I could be a gulag camp guard who enjoyed torturing social democrats in Thirties Russia.Or maybe I might be the guy who sneaked food to prisoners because I felt sorry for them. Who indeed knows? I like to think I'm a gentle fellow, I have a lot of time for cats, they calm me down. On the other hand, I often fantasise about bashing up people who annoy me. But then again, I lost my appetite the other day in the canteen because some student had a nose bleed and just fecked her tissue on the ground. (Manky it was, but that's China for you.)

But fair point you have made about your sympathies being with those fleeing the East. You no doubt subscribe to the belief that "Politics has never been about good guys and bad guys. It’s about two bad guys trying to get your attention and then your wallet."(Jim Goad) I basically believe though that living in the West was the lesser evil than living in the East.Gangsters like Ray Burke sold our gas fields for a song, true. However, had Ireland been communist, Ray Burke would probably be living it up in some palace somewhere, and the guy who exposed his misdeeds would be dead.

(BTW; I dion't see how saying "my analysis is correct" makes me dictatorial. What's that about?)

Question; you lived in Berlin during the Cold War?Cool. That makes you an oul fella, which is interesting, because you write like an angry young man. Did you ever get to meet Iggy Pop?

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Nov 23, 2011 13:32

..is that all of our analyses are subjective...and to wrap the mantle of self-certainty of correctness is not a direction I'd be driving if I were hanging dictators out to dry. I would think it a fairly uncontentious stance. '..the worst are full of passionate conviction...'?

And I dont think its about good guys and baddies...thats Bush country..its about a better system than the one thats presently disintegrating all round...and thats free(hahaha)market laisse faire dog-eat-dog capitalism rampant.

Its posited on the first-come-first-claim resource-theft of the planet..leaving most of us disposessed of the means of self-sustenance, unless we queue up for the sweat shop. The value system underlying it is homicidal war..and we can't really afford to indulge in it given the megatonic arsenals, which are currently being rolled out for the imperial neo-con century with NATO as remote control assassin/enforcer.

They say if it aint broke, dont fix it. The corrollary has to be if it is broke, start looking for the fault. Its been broke for centuries, but not for those inside the tent. Ireland has been drawn into the tent, for a squint, but now they(the market playboys)have mugged us, and the ordinary generators of wealth(the working people, not the stock gamblers)are getting reshafted to secure the luxuries of the complacent elites on all sides. The communistic idea, in my understanding of its challenge to social-darwinian meritocracy unbridled, is that we are all entitled to a share. That its implementation has so far failed, does not mean it is an unnecessary and fundamental change whose time is long overdue. Unfortuantely the money own the media, the means to generalising a democratic debate...which results in violent attempts at revolution because evolution is artificially arrested, or subverted, at every attempt.

Apartheid worked fine, provided you were white. So does unregulated capitalism, if you have the necessary blinkers, background, and contacts.

by jeff Wed Nov 23, 2011 14:06

I believe in merit. Yeah, we're all entitled to a share, as long as we earn it. I do believe in profit. I don't believe in legislating so that Michael O'Leary, for example, should earn the same as the average industrial wage. Michael Moore ran a piece whereby a certain factory owner chose to earn the same as his workers. His wage went down theirs went up but both we're living and earning comfortably. And that was great. Nonetheless, whilst capitalism does need regulation, regarding health and safety, contractual rights etc, I still don't think we should have a society that forces a given entrepeneur to dole out his/her profit. Ordinary entrepeneurs take risks.

I think we can agree that those entrepeneurs face being squeezed out by the mega elite corporations. I do fear a new feudalism coming about from massive corporations merging and merging. The new elite have the potential to stifle entrepeneurial creativity just as much as a Communist elite.Capitalism in it's current state is being monopolised.

However, I don't believe in a so called socialist alternative. I do believe in a welfare safety net,affordable if not free healthcare and subsidised education, and I remain satisfied that it was a capitalist west rather than an unaccountable communist east I grew up in. I've had Russian friends who do have a slight nostalgia for their completly subsidised past, but they in no way ever wish to return to a Soviet Union.

But anyway, this current tone between us is a great deal more pleasant. I've to go though, it's late here. Good night, I wish you well, Mr.Opus.

by opus diablos - the regressive hypocrite party Wed Nov 23, 2011 15:41

deserves more than the average...but there should still be limits on his personal earnings for playing with his planes.

Why should he earn more than a nurse, who does more important work?Or a miner or deep-sea fisherman or divers(one of the most dangerous occupations).

The logic of the market is anti-rational.. its a gamblers' and thugs' logic. And the mega-thugs run it, as surely as they run weapons and narcotics and politics in our bought and bribed(Sorry, lobbied) democracies.

by jeff Thu Nov 24, 2011 03:53

Nurses, deep sea divers et al should definately be earning more than parasitic currency manipulaters, that's for sure.

However, while nursing, etc are highly noble professions, they have a certain routine that is theoretically analogous to their earnings. They study hard, they get work, they do what is needed of them.

An entrepeneur buys up a certain ampount of units. He/she tries to sell them to make a priofit. Depending on their ability to raise capital, encourage investment from lenders, negotiating skills in selling, planning and often sheer luck, they can even make it, break even or go bust.Many such entrepeneurs spend years living hand to mouth before finally making it. Thus, the risk element in making a living is that bit more rioskier than those noble professions.

Of cotrse, nurses, deep sea divers et al have the opotion of going private, setting up their own care centrres, consultancy firms and what not. If they make a nice profit from that, good for them. There shouldn't be legislating to prevent them from earning as much as they want. However, if their business methods feed off tax payers, or put the livelyhoods (outside of the normal parameters of competition) or actual lives of others in danger, they need to be corralled.

by wageslave - (moderator) Thu Nov 24, 2011 05:31

[moderator]

Topic is:

" "Progressive" Michael D honours those who died under the Union Jack in imperial wars"

not

"the free market vs communism"

(You are of course free to start another thread if you want to discuss this. )