Anti bin tax protest in Ringsend

by geoff Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:38

Daithi isn't a public representative yet of any description, let alone a T.D.

I don't think we'll see Gerry Adams or any of the Sinn Féin pin up poster boys on the lines blocking the bin trucks!

by ??? Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:45

He may not be a public reprsentative yet, but he is the Chairperson of Dublin Sinn Féin.
Maybe its just me but I would have thought that the fact that Daithí came down to show support would be seen as a good thing though.
We'll ask Gerry to come down from Belfast for the next one shall we?

by pat c Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:45

daithi looks like a td. its the cork gravitas. ;)

by Chekov Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:50

Yer right, he's not a TD. Just like an anarchist to mistake such a detail! In any case, I wouldn't say it'll be too long before Daithi has an elected position. And it is definitely to be encouraged for SFers to get out on these protests - money where their mouth is.

by Andrew Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:09

Hopefully someone will post a more detailed report soon but the Cabra/Dunard/Navan road meeting last night was attended by several hundred

by Jamey Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:10

Daithi is a good speaker and a committed guy. I hope he gets elected to something.

by Seamus Croke Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:31

He's a Wanna Bee TD.

by Non-Aligned Activist Tue Sep 16, 2003 13:58

I was at the Teachers Club meeting last night and was disappointed at the amount of infighting. Different groups seemed to want to score points against each other. It was diifficult at times to understand the reasoning behind the 'differences. Surely its not either or when it comes to a picket on Depots (supported by Dermot Connolly and the SWP) and blocking trucks on their routes (supported by the SP and others).

Why not try both? In some areas blockading the Depot will be the best tactic in others blocking the trucks, in others a mixture. One size does not fit all.

Yet again in todays Irish Times the campaign is described as SP led. The central campaign should issue a statement making it clear that the Campaign is a Coalition of Community and Political Groups and no one organisation dominates it.

by Leveller Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:25

'Surely its not either or when it comes to a picket on Depots (supported by Dermot Connolly and the SWP) and blocking trucks on their routes (supported by the SP and others). '

Did Dermot join the SWP, I know that hes been peeved after he was dumped as Gen Sec of the SP but I didnt expect this! Someone please elucidate.

Activists Meeting

Will someone who was present do a fuller report on what happened at the Activists meeting last night.Whats the main thrust?

by Pettycoat Luce Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:26

I wasn't at the meeting myself, but from what I heard afterwards the "SWP" position wasn't just for pickets at the depots, but for pickets at the depots followed by blokades in the communities like is happening in Fingal. Mabye someone from the SWP could clear this up as there seems to be confusion.

Throughout Dublin there are a number of political groups involved in the Anti Bin Charges Campaigns. In Fingal, where the high profile action is taking place at the moment because of the Council's implementation of non collection, the Socialist Party is heavily involved as it is the place where they have a TD and two councillors. However, as all of the Fingal Anti Bin Tax Campaign press releases have made clear - this is primarily a campaign of local residents themselves. It is the residents of Santry and other areas who have blockaded bin trucks becuase of their anger over government plans to introduce a regressive tier of local taxation that will hit those on lower incomes hardest. Unfortunately, the media are going out of their way to portray the protestors as a small group of "rent a crowd" politicos, when it is clear to anybody who has been at the protests that this is not the case. This is an impression created by the media to serve a specific agenda and is not the fault of the Campaign.

It would be a good idea for anti bin tax folk to write into the papers and ring up the radio stations (there was a debate on the Gerry Ryan show yesterday, i think). On Questins and Answers last night, not one anti bin tax campaigner was invited on the panel- which featured well known service charge enthusiast Brian Lenihan jn. Unfortunately, the bias of the capitalist media is all too familiar to those involved in the anti-war campaign.

Finally, the all dublin anti bin charges campaigns are having a lobby on the High Court tomorrow at 10 am to coincide with the hearings of the injunctions of the Fingal protestors - it is vitally important that we have a huge turnout.

by An Independent Socialist Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:38

What's wrong with putting protests on the depots?

In principle nothing, as long as it is very clear that they are supportive of bin workers and not aimed at them.

What's wrong with it in practice? It just doesn't work.

The campaign has limited resources in terms of time, activists, etc. If putting protests on a depot means that blockades then won't happen on those routes, then the campaign is damaged.

The strength of this campaign - as Chekov's excellent report makes clear - is in the communities. The willingness of ordinary non-politicos to come out of their houses and get involved in blockades is where our power lies. We can get far more people involved in their own streets than we can get to hang around depots. In turn the cops are much more reluctant to lay into loads of residents on their own streets than they are groups of politicos at a depot.

Blockades work. Fingal is now into day five of a hugely disrupted bin service, with one truck entering its sixth day [!] under a continuous blockade.

Protests at depots don't. Not a single bin route has been stopped from operating by one. Simple as that.

As for why did there seem to be a lot of unnecessary point scoring, well I can suggest two possible reasons neither very flattering to the SWP. The first reason is that they really don't understand how community action can work, unlike the SP, WSM, etc who have experience from things like the water charges. The second reason is that they are likely to be trying to make up some ground they feel they have lost to their bitter rivals in the SP over the last week and the good of the campaign is a side issue.

by Chekov Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:43 chekovfeeney at yahoo dot com

Firstly, I don't really think it's a great idea to dwell on what amounts to a minor division in the campaign at the moment on a public forum like indymedia. I'm sure the right-wing press (what other type is there? you ask) are ferreting around for any dirt they can throw at the campaign. But since people have brought it up, in a somewhat inaccurate way imho, I might as well describe the position at the moment as I understand it.

The debate focused on a relatively minor point. Dermot and the SWP thought that any blockades that took place this week should be of limited duration, while others thought that in some areas local blockades could be more open ended. The decision was deferred until a more representative activist meeting is convened next week. In the meantime the question of tactics will be put to local meetings that are happening all over the city this week.

Unfortunately, at key moments of campaigns like now, debates often become heated even over minor points. While this may look ugly, the reality is that the campaign is very united on all the core issues.

by Killian Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:51

The outcome of the meeting in Teachers club was; (bearing in mind fairly big differences in stratedgy and the low turn out at the meeting)

1) Blockades to happen today in Ringsend and possibly Rathgar (?)

2) City wide turn out encouraged for court case in the morning at 10am.

3) Co-ordinators and activists to go back to areas to suss out support or otherwise for escalation of blockades and DA.

4) Meeting to be held on saturday morning in Teachers club to get reports back from areas, review the hig court ongoings and try and bash out a co-ordinated approach for the campaign.

Anyway that is my interpretation of how the meeting concluded. Hope its correct, if not apologies.

by your uncle Bob Tue Sep 16, 2003 14:51

non-aligned activist: The Fingal Anti-Bin Tax Campaign has been making it clear constantly that this is a campaign mostly made up of residents who aren't in any political organisation.

The Irish Times today (and a lot of the media) are indulging in the old trick of red-baiting. Ordinary people can't be angry enough to take action themselves, it has to be a plot by those sneaky reds.

The Socialist Party play a very big role in the campaign, and well done to them, but the campaign doesn't belong to them and they wouldn't argue that it does. The media are trying to damage the campaign.

I mean even the poor SWP, who are peripheral at best to what's going on, were red-baited by the Sunday Tribune last week!!! The Tribune was trying to make out that the whole thing was a stunt by the SWP aimed at the next local elections. A madder conspiracy theory I have yet to hear.

by Bin Overladen Tue Sep 16, 2003 15:39

At the Socialist Voice thread Dermot SY berates Pat C for saying that no one group led the campaign, he was also upset about questions regarding the elder Dermots alliance with the SWP.

"PAT C
by Dermot - sy Sunday, Sep 14 2003, 2:04pm

And I can't help but notice in your last comment pat that you are quite unhappy that the socialist parties tactics and leadership in the bin tax campaign are working. I think you would prefer the campaign to loose rather than the SP get any good press on indymedia over it."

As long as the SPs young tigers carry on like this it will be difficult to maintain unity and fight the Red Baiting.

On whos in what I have two questions:

1/ Has Dermot Connolly left the SP and joined the SWP?

2/ Is Pat C now in Working Class Action?

by D.6w resident Tue Sep 16, 2003 15:49

What is the end in sight for the blockades? Is it that you will frustrate the council into receeding on their principle. If so will the people who had already paid the fees be reimbursed. If not will there not be a lot of animosity toward those whose bins are being collected without paying the charges.

The dublin council are threatening non-collection in our area (D.6w) and people are very mixed in opinion. Many cant see a viable solution on the part of the anti-bin tax group. Our house hasnt paid but some of our nighbours have and they have explicitly said that they dont think our bins shouldnt be collected if we dont pay. They dont see it as fair.

by Terry Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:02

I reckon the purpose of the blockades is to make it so difficult for the council and so visible in terms of the people's anger for the politicans, that they will back down and try again in a few more years.

The Water Charges a few years ago were defeated by mass action as it really did scare the politicans because it was too costly to their image and authority.

For the politicans, they always run the danger that any sort of political issue can result in large numbers of people beginning to think about the system and why such a small bunch of people have so much authority and thus question the whole system.

On the Water Charges, people who paid do not get their money back. As far as I know, some of them tried to take legal action to either get it back, or force the council to collect from those who had not paid. It failed of course.

As regarding that some of your neighbours think you should pay, I would read that as they are essentially repeating verbatim what the press, councils and government have told them. People, at those times when they don't think, tend to repeat things that have been planted in their heads, i.e. -what was in the newspapers yesterday or last week.

As far as I know, even those who have only partially paid, will be marked as paid, so it is possible that not all your neighbours have paid in full.

My advice is don't give in. Don't be brow beaten by these tactics. Anyone else get more to add?

by Dublin 7 resident Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:03

We have already seen the abolition of a service charges in recent years, that of the Water tax. So apply the lessons from that to the situation here.

In short charges were abolished and everyone from that date forward did not have to pay them. Whether they were part of the campaign or not.

by conor (wsm personal capacity) Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:06

I think people are really missing the OVERWHELMING good here in their attempts to snatch out something bad (in the way of political capital/kudos/irrelevent nit picking!) from an excellent situation

NOTE

1. A large protest at an unholy hour with many local people and a local political representitive (what ever you may think of poor Daithi one way or another)

2. All the bins WERE collected

Yet again another result - we can win
we are winning - non collection can be beaten -

the bin tax can be beaten

well done to the council workers and all the people who were there Keep up the good work !

Conor

by matt Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:34

The smart ass comments about Daithi Doolin and SF highlight the ignorance of their authors. Republicans have being organising and participating in working class protests in Dublin for generations and long before there were so-called experts on direct action. Also Daithi and SF showed the beneft of REAL working class action by winning the co-operation of the bin truck workers and not resorting to blockades of the trucks straight off. That is real public representation as opposed to fly-by-night adventurism by groups that flit from one thing to the next. And that is why SF are THE party of the fighting working class as evidenced by the growth in support - 10% in latest poll and far far higher in working class estates - and will be shown in the election of people like Daithi to the councils next year.

by D.6w resident Tue Sep 16, 2003 16:46

cheers for the reply. Were still concerned about a festering community animosity. Hopefully it will blow over when the tax is defeated.

by Be serious matt Tue Sep 16, 2003 17:00

Matt, save the silly bluster for people who care.

The only point in your little rant that its worth replying too is the bit about winning the bin workers support rather than "resorting to blockades".

It would be great if the bin workers could refuse to implement non-collection. However, it is very unlikely given the huge pressure they are under and (in most areas) the weakness of their unions. IMPACT for instance has been as hysterically for the implementation of non-collection as management.

Chekov's report makes it clear that the bin workers in Ringsend were collecting all bins because they had not received orders to implement non-collection. This has nothing to do with some magical Sinn Fein or Daithi Doolin ability to influence bin workers.

We have to be careful not to alienate the bin workers and to offer them whatever support and encouragement we can. People involved in the blockades have been very careful to explain to bin workers what was going on, how we are trying to protect their jobs, pay and conditions, and to be friendly, offer them cups of tea etc. But to beat non-collection we have to meet it with our main strength and that's the support we have in communities.

by Chekov Tue Sep 16, 2003 17:00

Community concerns: I think the best response to give to neighbours who have paid is "how much do you think your bill will be next year?" and "will you be happy to pay for water too?". Use examples from anywhere in the country where these charges shot up once they were imposed.

Beyond that, it comes down to the power of solidarity; that's what we have to convince people of. Sadly, in the wealthier parts of the city this is a little known concept.

Matt: I hope that SF do show themselves to be the party of the fighting working class; the more forces fighting in the campaign the merrier. But your claim that other groups involved in the campaign "flit from one thing to the next" is not very accurate when it comes to the bin charges. The campaign has been going for almost 3 years now; hundreds of public meetings have been held all over the place; many thousand leaflets and posters have gone up - and all that before it got the merest whiff of media attention!

by sp - sp Tue Sep 16, 2003 18:07

The bin tax campaign is a very broad campaign. The SP does not or claim to "run" this campaign. Its public representatives support the campaign and are actively involved.

The press is trying to say its just an SP campaign to deny there is support. Joe Higgins has time and time said again how it is.

by eh? Tue Sep 16, 2003 18:16

Will you please tell your SY wild boys to ease off? They seem to think the SP is leading the campaign.

by pat c Tue Sep 16, 2003 18:47

I'm not in WCA.

by fingal resident Tue Sep 16, 2003 23:44

My bins have not been collected today and I am rather annoyed .

personally , I could not care if other residents do not want to pay the charges , thats their own decision , but I cannot see why they must blockade the bin lorries . If they want their rubbish to be uncollected , so be it . why should I have to suffer as well ?

I do not see the bin charges as double taxation , it is a simple policy of the polluter paying .
my household makes an effort to recycle by reducing the amount of packaging we purchase and cutting up plastic bottles etc etc . thus , we only put out our bin every two weeks . this costs me 110 euro a year . compared to Carlow , where residents are charged 420 euro per year it is a bargain .

If this blockade continues I can imagine there will be a huge rise in illegally dumping , as though there is not enough of that already . have any of the anti-bin tax brigade thought about this ?

by irish resident Wed Sep 17, 2003 00:12

what a brilliant piece of satire. you should work for Phoenix.

by Badman Wed Sep 17, 2003 00:12

"My bins have not been collected today and I am rather annoyed."

well go talk to the council about it, that's who our taxes are supposed to pay to collect our bins. Ask them why they have decided to stop collecting bins.

"personally , I could not care if other residents do not want to pay the charges , thats their own decision , but I cannot see why they must blockade the bin lorries . If they want their rubbish to be uncollected , so be it . why should I have to suffer as well ?"

Who wants their bins to be uncollected? The whole point of the protests is that ALL bins must be collected.

But, from your post, it is very fucking obvious that the concept of solidarity is very alien to you. Why don't you mount a 1 man protest against the campaign telling us all how little you care what other residents want to do?

In the meantime, why don't you join the fianna fail mailing list? For all it's faults, indymedia is a place where people give a shit and I can't imagine what you might be doing here except trolling.

by sp member (personal capacity) Belfast Wed Sep 17, 2003 01:01

The first shots in the final battle over the bin tax have been fired.
The campaign now has to face critical tactical issues on a day to day basis and appears to be dealing with these in the spirit of hard but fraternal debate that would be expected in the circumstances.
I think it is important to reach a clear understanding on the role of any one group/party that is no one group/party has the ability to deliver on their own. In fact without a broad based campaign the movement against bin charges will be defeated.
As someone looking at this battle unfolding from a distance it would be interesting if an outline could be given of the positions of the various organisations on the left, by that i mean their real positions not troll crap.

Good luck to all involved in this battle. Activists across the north are watching and are fully in support of your efforts.

by fingal resident Wed Sep 17, 2003 21:16

"But, from your post, it is very fucking obvious that the concept of solidarity is very alien to you"

spouting words such as solidarity does not make you right . In fingal the bin charge is in place to encourage people to RECYCLE . I cannot see anything wrong with encouraging people to recycle . polluter pays , tough shit . what was your feeling on the congestion charges in london ? it is the same principle .

"In the meantime, why don't you join the fianna fail mailing list? For all it's faults, indymedia is a place where people give a shit and I can't imagine what you might be doing here except trolling."

I have never voted fianna fail in my life and never intend to so I can't see the point of joining the mailing list . I always vote for the green party , for your information .

so indymedia is a place where people give a shit ? I give a shit about the enviroment . I really don't want waste incinerators in my area which is why I agree with encouraging people to recycle .

I'm not trolling , I always use indymedia as a resource for finding out about anti-war protests etc etc .
I just disagree with the anti-bin charges protests . Indymedia is a place where people can give their opinions , can you not even respect that basic fact ?
are you some kind of stalinist nutbag that can't even bear to listen to other peoples opinions ?

by Auld Dubliner Wed Sep 17, 2003 21:33

Now listen carefully, "Fingal Resident", I suppose I will have to explain this as simply as I can, seeing as you seem to be a little slow to grasp the basic point of the protests.

The point is that we, the PAYE taxpayers, have already paid for this service.

The councils want us to pay a second time, not to protect the environment, to to make the waste collection service a profit making operation, so that they can sell it to a private operator.

You can be absolutely certain that once that has been achieved, the charges will be increased way above the rate of inflation, workers will be laid off to maximise profit, and to cap it all the service will deteriorate.

Is that clear enough for you?

by simon Thu Sep 18, 2003 03:21

I have to say Im on the side of the Fingal resident. No-one from the anti-Bin Tax lobby seems to recognise that the costs of waste management have spiralled so surely the current amount we pay through PAYE is invalid. Is it right that I should pay less for my services than somebody, say, living in Carlow because i live in the capital city? Is it good/workable enough to just say 'tax the rich'. Again thats putting the onus on someone else to cover my costs. The list of unanswered questions on the anti bin tax side goes on

I dont like the calls of un-solidarity by some of the anti bin tax lobby. Its starting to sound a bit like Bush calling the anti-war groups unpatriotic etc. Its a selfish and ignorant thing to say.

Although Id like to see more details as to how the councils arrive at their figures.

by Bill Thu Oct 09, 2003 16:03

Can we get a bit of rational thinking here.

The worlds has a problem with waste from humans, Ireland has a problem with waste from humans, Dublin has a problem with waste from humans.

Now, it is up to each individual to take there part in protecting the enviorment and the future of the planet, therefore eliminating as much waste as possible.

Facilities for treatment and land filling of the waste have to be paid for and this charge is a justified charge for paying for it as it is in many civilised countries in around the globe. If your charge were to be based on the amount of waste you generate an intelligent minded person would try and eliminate as much as possible, ie. recycling, being careful as to what you purchase and therefore pay a small 'bin tax' as you like to call it.

I know that you have all been brainwashed at public meetings about this being the start of many increased and 'how much will we have to pay next year' .. totally unfounded and untrue .. do a bit of research yourself and stop taking her say as gospel.

Everyone in this country should have to pay their way and not have to supplement for the greedy others who refuse to pay their way - spongers in my words.

As for the 'heros' being Jailed .... Law is Law .. contempt of court is a jailable offence and the justice had no choice in the matter .. it was the same for lawlor when he was in contempt of court same for a breast feeding mother - she was given the opportunity to purge her contempt for the sake of her child (I doubt you would have thought less of her for doing that), so in effect I have no sympathy for her or the other nine today .. you cannot disobey the laws of the land and the directions of a Judge and expect lenency .. plus she also threatened the judge verbally which is the lowest of the low.

In short ... paying for your own generated waste is a justified charge and you protests are a sham as I know that there will be no backing down from this government, because if there was there would be a huge protest to reinstate the charges from the decent people of the city who have paid their dues.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves