More Legal Wrangling - The Campaign Continues

by Indie Red Thu Sep 18, 2003 02:41

Joe Higgins and Clare Daly are now likely to be jailed on Friday.

On Saturday there will be a meeting of activists in the city campaign at the same time as marches take place in Blanchardstown and elsewhere in the Fingal area.

It is rumoured that the SWP, an organisation that has played little role so far in the bin tax struggle, is planning to pack that city meeting, knowing that many other activists will be at marches in Fingal. If it succeeds in doing so it will try to push through its anti-blockade agenda, effectively stabbing activists in the back. It is important that activists in the city area turn up to the Saturday meeting and put a stop to any SWP antics.

by Pablo Montana - Indie Socialist Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:01

The SWP tactics of 'have a march and appeal to the workers to strike' are exactly what the Fingal CC want us to do.
Why are the SWP putting nearly as much effort into stopping the blockades as the fingal county council.

by pat c Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:03

if you have criticisms of the swp then you should cite statements or actions by swp members. your criticisms are in the abstract.

by no bin tax Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:25

The SWP have a terrible position on the bin tax. It all comes from the fact they have very little interaction with the organised working class, and do no work in local communities.

No SWP members were present at the blockades in fingal. They oppose the methods of a blockade. Instead they want the easy way out of organising a demo of the 'usual suspects' isolated from the communities outside depots.

When asked to justify their inaction they are left flumoxed. Rory Hearne was even saying that getting a few bin tax activists to Paris for the ESF would be a great way to beat the bin tax!

They are out of touch and unable to get support from ordinary people.

Their slogans are refomist and talk of 'taxing the rich' what about big business?!

by Pablo Montana - Indie Socialist Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:25

The latest Socialist Worker, NOTHING about the Fingal blockades. A small bit about the bin tax on the back page. SWP member (Rory Hearne I think) yesterday overheard telling an SP'er that the most important thing was to get a few hundred anti-bin tax protesters to the European Social Forum and that the SP is too obsessed with blockades. If you disbelieve 'indie red' then don't take his or her word for it, go along on Sunday and see the SWP pack the meeting. See them push through their own agenda. I am an ex-SWP member and I know what goes on. They have an obsession with doing the opposite of what the SP says. Sometimes by fluke they turn out correct but this time, and I would say most times it leads them to a ridiculous position

by fingal - sp Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:05

we need support out in fingal the best way is too blockade. i jhave no idea wheter the above is trolling or is true so I will not comment. All I will say is organise blockades in your \area. If fingal is defeated you are next.
Even if one group opposes I think in the city there is a broad campaign with many groups and individuals involved. The example of fingal can be given at meetings.

by fingal - sp Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:09

In fact one swp member from the blanchardstown area was at the blockades all day every day in Fingal. She obviously supported the blockades and helped out.

by Jolly Green Giant Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:38

Fingal SP

On another thread (Sargeant goes to Galway)the Greens are taking a hammering over their support for Bin Charges. They have offered a debate in Galway (see below). Maybe you would be interested in going and knocking the stuffing out of them

>>
Invite to Galway
by Niall Ó Brolcháin - Green Party Wednesday, Sep 17 2003, 4:57pm
niallob@esatclear.ie

I'd like to invite you guys down to Galway to a public meeting relating to Bin Charges. I'd be happy to take part in the debate and I'm sure that some people would be interested.

We have a charge of E350 per year and there has been no major anti-bin charge campaign in Galway. There was however a large anti-incinerator / pro-recycling campaign.

If you are interested, please email me.

by Joe Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:38

Its ironic that not so long ago we were hearing the argument that direct action was premature and that the real answer was marches and appeals to the workers concerned to take action for us from another party. Not on the same issue of course but it does put the current SWP line in a context that would suggest it is not as heretical to the rest of the left as you might think. And I accept of course that it is quite possible to honestly make that argument on one issue and the reverse on another.

In terms of the north-east city area SWP members have been on the blockades, or at least those outside of the leadership have been. I don't think the SWP have enough trusted members to pack Saturdays meeting and I suspect even if they did that many areas would simply go ahead and organise blockades locally. This is already happening.

The real danger on Saturday is not that the SWP will pack the meeting. It is that the various party members there will choose to argue the party line rather then putting across how activists in their area actually feel. This is a problem of a method of organisation (Leninism) that puts the party ahead of the class and so expects loyalty to the party first. The SWP are not the only Leninist organisation involved in the campaign so this is not just a problem with the SWP.

Clearly different areas have different levels of preparation and so it is quite legitimate that the activists in those areas may have a different sense of what is possible or even sensible. The activists in Cabra where hundreds of people have attended meetings and a couple of blockades have already been carried out are obviously more likely to feel that blockades should start right away then people where the local campaign is very weak.

What is needed on Saturday is an honest evaluation of where we stand where activists give honest report backs of local feeling. Decisions can then be made on an accurate basis. Any votes should be free of any party whip so that those present can vote according to what they have heard and what they know of their own local situation. It would be ideal if local groups had formally mandated delegates for the meeting but even where this has not happened in most cases those present will know how their local groups feels.

The vast majority of people active in the campaign are not members of any political organisation. Of course many of the local organisers will also be members of various organisations because the experience of organising around single issues tends to highlight the need for political organisation as well. As the Dublin meetings tend to attract those doing a lot of the local organising a significant number will also be members of political groups. But if because of this they turn the meeting into a bun fight between the parties then they'll not only piss off unaligned organisers they'll also piss off those involved in the non Leninist organisations.

So if you are a party member and will be there on Saturday you have a clear choice. You either follow the party line or you try and represent those you are organising with locally. For some no decision will be needed because one will happen to be the same as the other. For the others don't let dogma sabotage the hard work you and others have put in over the years.

by leninist Thu Sep 18, 2003 13:16

the reason why the sp have been leading the bin tax struggle in fingal is because they have won the respect of working class people there. they put forward the idea of blackades BASED ON THE MOOD IN FINGAL!

maybe we should look at the 'party lines' of the anarchists. their party line is that all marxists are bad, regardless of their relationship with working class people.

swp have played a terrible role, largely due to them not being in touch with the mood of working people. it's wrong to tar the sp with the same brush.

by Bertie Thu Sep 18, 2003 13:28

That is NOT the anarchist position. We work with various other groups and individuals on the left. Of course we have long-running ideological differences with them, but we are practical, and we do campaign alongside them, and the current bintax campaign is a case in point.
Your post looks like an attempt to sow division, and to undermine that campaign.

by Joe Thu Sep 18, 2003 13:28

SP member if you re-read what I write it includes "For some no decision will be needed because one will happen to be the same as the other". You say this was the case in Fingal so no problem then.

I don't intend to discuss Fingal further at this point. I would have criticisms but at this point in time I will hold onto these for obvious reasons.

I posted the above after a lot of thought because there is a clear danger that Saturdays meeting will end up as 'SP party line' via 'SWP party line'. This is about the worst thing that could happen and will simply damage the campaign (by getting in the way of the facts on the ground) and piss off the majority of activists who are either non-aligned or members of other groups.

by SP member Thu Sep 18, 2003 13:47

Have to say that I agree with Joe. Nobody, (especially SP members, I might add) wants to see the meeting turn into an "SWP line" versus "SP line" argument. The tactics in the Dublin city area will depend naturally on what the mood in the communities will be following debate and discussion on these issues with activists; not on any "line" worked out in isolation from them.
I don't think launching into an ideological tirade against what you term "leninists" is particularly helpful to the debate though.

by Joe Thu Sep 18, 2003 13:55

It is fairly standard for leninist parties to instruct their members on how to vote in working class organisations. I've no idea if this sort of democratic centralism is common in the SP but in any case I'm pleased to here it won't apply on this occasion. For the record I do think the SP is far more sensible in campaign work then the SWP, this might be part of the reason why.

And to the original SP commentator. Marxism is not the same thing as leninism. There are non-leninist marxists some of whom I'd have a lot in common with.

by Joe Thu Sep 18, 2003 14:11

RTE reporting continuation of blockade in Fingal but also that
"It comes as Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co Council issues letters this week, to 30% of householders in the county who owe waste charges of more than ?200.

They will be given ten days to pay what they owe before the council discontinues their waste collection service.

Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council charges ?275 per year for waste collection - the highest charge in Dublin."

by Terry - None Thu Sep 18, 2003 15:16

Some people may be puzzled about the figure of 30% given above, for the percentage of people who will receive letters. This is to mislead people into thinking that therefore 70% have paid.

In fact, it is a clever PR trick by them. We know from Freedom of Information figures that at least 70% of people in DL/R have not paid in full. There are quite a few who paid something a few years ago and then stopped.

At the moment the councils count people granted the waiver as paid, thus they don't get the warning letters. But when it is privatized, those on the waivers WILL have to pay and I think they make up a figure close to 20% of the total. Can anyone confirm? Again this is a clever ploy, because there is then less incentive for those on waivers to get involved in the campaign, even though those are the very people who will be least able to afford it when the charges rise ever higher in the next few years

I have heard that those who paid even a token amount will not receive the letters, but this I stress needs to be confirmed. But if this is the case, then when the waivers and those who paid something are excluded, the 30% makes more sense. It is also likely that they are not applying this 'sweep' to the whole area, but only to those areas when payments levels are higher, -i.e more well-to-do areas.

Overall we can see the strategy by the councils is to pit payers against non-payers, through clever PR pretend a lot more people have paid, side-step the waiver and partial payment issue. This amounts to the old Divide and Rule campaign.

And a quick word on recycling. There is nothing in place that encourages retailers/supermarkets to reduce packaging. At the moment for some strange reason, but largely to do with the twists of our economic system, items with MORE packaging cost less and items with LESS packaging cost more.

So even if my refuse charges rise to say 12 euros a week, it would still cost me far more extra for my weekly shopping if I was to send that message to the 'market' to reduce waste, because those items are so much more expensive.

In a nice coincidence, this ensures that waste reduction cannot occur and means there will be a sufficient volume of waste to keep the newly privatised waste industry profitable. Not only that it guarantees a steady supply of combustible material to the Incinerator planned for Dublin. This incinerator will be privately owned and run for a hefty fee each year. The incinerator will burn 500,000 tonnes of domestic waste per year.

by fingal - sp Thu Sep 18, 2003 19:57

the truth is we could not have blockades without local community support. Areas where we didn't have any support the bins were allowed to continue till they hit somewhere we had. I think this SWP vs SP line is a figment of someones imagination. Blockades don't happen just cause sp or swp decide, look at ballyfermot theres not much lefties there yet they held blockades.
The way it has worked in fingal has been with the community making decisions right the way through, its been like this for the last number of years. Not some evil plotting leninists brainwashing poor innocent workers. This by the way is fingal county councils line and they aren't anarchists as far as I'm aware.