Chicken Liberation in County Kildare

by ann redmond - - Mon Jan 12, 2004 22:46

Well done, hopefully this will probe an investigation into this hell hole

by Moophious Tue Jan 13, 2004 05:13

Don't be a part of the horror of Autzwitx farming. Don't eat factory farmed animals - especially chicken and pork. Don't be part of the pain, the fear, the horror and the crime.

Escape the Meatrix.

by james Tue Jan 13, 2004 14:28

Well done, how about saving a piglet or two sometime, if I lived in Eire Id volunteer to do it.

I have to admit Im a carnivore and believe a small occasional bit of meat in the diet is positive. However, there is way too much meat in the average persons diet in particular pork and chicken which are farmed in horrendous conditions. I tend to avoid them and eat fish only. But dont forget beef which is responsible for massive env. destruction from methane emissions to forest clearing for grazing to feed the Mc Shite, sorry Mc Donalds industry. Have a reed of Eric Schlossers "Fast Food Nation" for a good insight.

by David Tue Jan 13, 2004 14:28

there is a special report in the current issue of the Ecologist that deals with the worlds largest Pig producer. Some of it is available on their website..

Fields covered with faeces, children vomiting at school, plastic bins stuffed full of dead pigs. Robert Kennedy and Tracy Worcester experience firsthand the reality of life in Smithfield’s Poland.
http://www.theecologist.org/article.html?article=444

by Veterinary Student Tue Jan 13, 2004 19:38

You do of course realise that those two birds will "live out the remainder of their lives" suffering from exposure, and hunger as they do not know how to forage for food, before eventually succumbing to hypothermia or predation by foxes or mink. If you believe that there is "gross cruelty and neglect" occurring on any farm, call the ISPCA, the Ministry for Agriculture, your local TD, or the local Veterinary Inspector. Please do not cause more suffering to animals by performing short-sighted, ill thought out and generally unhelpful acts of vigilanteism. If you have a problem with the legislation that's currently in place, I'm sure that the ISPCA would welcome your help in their current efforts for reform.

by I love chicken sambos Tue Jan 13, 2004 20:25

You are a bunch of fucking idiots! thoise chickens will be attacked by foxes and cats in the wild, they will dies cruel deaths. At least when sent to the abatoir they will have a humane painless death. Why target the chickens? Why not persuade people to stop eating ham and chicken sandwiches?

by i Tue Jan 13, 2004 22:40

Chickens can survive well outside in ireland - even in the winter (unless it is unusually cold for unusually long). Trust me, I know this!

Also, they'll naturally peck around for worms, insects, etc. and they'll even eat bits of grass and other plants if they have to. They'll lose a bit of weight, allright, but they look as if they could do with losing a bit of weight!

Finally, it is true that they may meet an early death courtsy of a fox or cat - but that's life. Their life in the sheds was indescribly horrific. Factory farming is holocaust farming in which living, sentient beings live out their short lives never seeing sunlight, never touching ground, never having the opportunity to express their natural behaviour.

It is hard to imagine anything more horrific than the nightmare sheds from which most chicken, eggs, pork, sauges, rashers, etc. come from. Fear, pain and nightmare beyond imagining - the components of the food of millions.

These poor animals are far, far better off where they are. Those people who did this actions are heros, and have my deepest respect.

Stupid fools like the previous poster can only maintain their arrogant stupidity by staying carefully away from the truth about where their meat comes from. Go visit an intensive farm and slaughter house and see for yourself. Chicken McNightmare indeed.

by i Tue Jan 13, 2004 22:47

If you really want to know where most meat comes from, check out the following links:

For information on broiler chickens (reared for their meat) see http://www.ciwf.ie/farminfo/farmfacts_broiler.html

For more general information on the horror of factory farming in Ireland and what you can do about it see http://www.ciwf.ie

For an excellent collection of sites on cruelty to animals, including on factory farming, see http://www.peta.com

Where your meat comes from

by Chicken Nugget Wed Jan 14, 2004 01:58

A small victory perhaps, but it's the principle of the thing.
See the link

by I love chiken sambos Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:31

I know well where my meat comes from. Is your picture meant to make me feel guilty about eating chicken sambos or something. I have no problem with eating animals. Humans are superior, a chickens life is not equivilant to the life of a human. A chickens life in my opinion is even less than the worth of a plate of chicken nuggets or a sandwich.

At a certain point in human history the human went from eating nuts and berries to eating meat. This was a massive progressive step in the history of mankind. It allowed our brains and our bodies to develop with the protein. It also freed up time in the day as hunting for meat took less time then constantly foraging for berries.

Meat is progressive. If your ancestors did not hunt, kill and eat meat we would still be in the stone-age.

by cabhog Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:35

Free Range food is an option only available to the rich west.The only reason that population growth in the western world in the late 19th/20th centuries was sustainalbe was because of intensive farming prodcution, which can be seen continued today in the pig and chicken industries especially. Unfortunately, the ratio of land to chicken between broiler and free rangeis omewhere in the high teens, meaning that yuou then a really fat free range chicken to return the same level of food.

This is important when you look at the developing world, especially areas in Sub-Saharan africa. Food production in many of the rural areas is still substanially free range and at sustience levels, meaning that a family is subject to the cruelty of the climate. If intensive farming was pushed more and more in Africa, especially in cheap meat food stuffs such as intensive chicken production, famine could be averted. If you doubt this look at China today, where great efforts to reduce famine occurence have been successful, primarily because people moved from local small scale sustience farming to heavy indutry, and heavy industry moved into food production

by Woz Wed Jan 14, 2004 17:17

It looks like you've thought this through a bit, but not enough I fear. Addressing your points in random order:

To state that my ancestors ate meat, so it must be OK, is clearly baseless. My ancestors did some pretty atrocious stuff I'm sure. You would have to say that rape, slavery, and probably worse, were all acceptable.

Ye state that in the wild those two chickens would suffer. I agree - but did the liberators turn them out into the wild, or provide a monitored free range environment, or what? They don't actually give much detail; we'd all like to know. Also would the chickens suffer more or less in the wild than in the battery? Hard to say. Would you rather live in constant misery or swim with the sharks for a few hours?

It may be true that cruelty free food is an option only available to the rich west; in my view the stats are equivocal on that. But given that we have that option, why not take it? Won't hurt us; will reduce suffering. Personally I reckon we're smart enough to work out how to feed the world without cruelty. Tricky maybe, but worth trying.

The assertion that because one species is superior to another therefore the former may torture / exploit / subjugate the latter, has no logical basis. We justify our actions on whether they are right or wrong, and on the degree of choice we have, not on how clever, strong, or technically advanced we are. Arguably your assertion is self-contradictory, because an indicator of superiority (at least of moral superiority) is that you don't torture / exploit / subjugate. And if I personally happen to be "superior" to you personally, may I exploit you? If so please supply your credit card details.

by i Wed Jan 14, 2004 17:37

Humans are NOT naturally carnivores. Of the four primate species (Orangutan, Gorillia, Chimp and Human), the Orangutan and Gorillia are wholly vegetarian while chimps and humans are omniverous. Chimps eat meat, but very, very raely, and their diet is almost all vegetarian.
In other words, our nearest evolutionary neighbours are not meat-eaters.

You can also look at intestine length, especially in relationship to body size. The intestine is significant because that is where food is digested. Since meat is much more easily digested, carnivores have a much shorter intestine than herbirvores. Humans have a herbivore-length intestine. We are not biologically designed for consming large amounts of meat.

In most of the world, and in all of the world for most of history, meat has not been a daily part of the diet, but has been reserved for special occasions. It has only been recently that meat-eating has become so ubiqioutouus.

The idiot who calls himself 'I love chiken sambos' would no dobt have no problem offering himself and his loved ones for torture and consumption of a 'superior species' wished it. He is entitled to his opinion.

However his ignorance concerning the role of protein mustn't be allowed to spread. The protein myth is one of the meat industry's most successfull marketing achiements, but has no basis is fact. Most westerners get far too much protein and just about any balanced vegetarian diet provides plenty.

After all, the bigest and strongest animals on earth (the Elephant, the bull, the Rhino, the Gorilla, etc.) are all vegetaran.

Finally, I'd just like to point out that humans who eat animal flesh in our society are not carnivors. Carnivors kill and eat their prey. Human meat-eaters instead eat the flesh of animals that have been dead for many deays, often weeks. They are therefore better described as carrion-eaters, along with jackels, hyenyas, vultures and maggots.

by 1 Wed Jan 14, 2004 17:51

The argument that it is OK to torture living, sentient beings in the 'efficient' processing of them for food because humans are somehow 'superior' to them is at the core of the justifications for this horror.

If another species who had a taste for human flesh and were technlogically superior to humanity were to arrive from space, would it be morally acceptable for them to build concentration camps in which to 'farm' humans for food?

Can you see your loved ones in such a human factory farm?

What kind of morality is that?

(Its the one that justifys your rashers and chicken McNuggets)

Maybe YOU are a monster, supporting a horrific monstrocity? Why take the chance? Surely the LEAST that you can do is educate yourself about where your meat comes from.

After all, if you've nothing to fear, then why fear the truth?

Is cruelty OK for our 'inferiors'? Where your meat comes from.

by Foxy Lady Wed Jan 14, 2004 18:37

I think it's good to help out our poor wild foxes, they have a hard time getting hunted and all, so chicken will be a tasty treat.

by Arts Bum Wed Jan 14, 2004 22:39

Sorry, '1', but chickens ain't sentient. And as a previous poster elaborated, do you think your average sub-Saharan African is going to give a fuck how his/her food was treated before it was killed? Let's get our priorities straight here. We can afford to think about animal welfare as we browse through our well-stocked supermarkets and decide which variety of Unce Ben's sauce we'll have with the chicken tonight. But there remain many on this planet for whom this is an absurd luxury.

by yo Wed Jan 14, 2004 23:19

maybe "your average sub-Saharan African" isn't "going to give a fuck how his/her food was treated before it was killed" but, as a previous poster stated, given that we have this option, this luxury, if you will, why not avail of it?

i recognise that in releasing these unaccustomed chickens into the wild they may face death by fox or other animal, but at least they have a chance.

in the rather simplistic opinion of someone striving to live life without contributing to or being a passive observer of animal suffering, someone who never quite understood the arguments regarding superior/inferior species; animal rights in relation to us; our responsibilities in relation to them, etc, as it always seemed natural to me that we would treat animals as we would humans - with respect, compassion and empathy...i admire what these people did.

nice one,

by i Thu Jan 15, 2004 00:03

Just a note to counter the ignorance of a previous poster who somehow ties cruelty to animals with feeding the world.

Animals, particularly cattle, are a very, very ineffecient way of producing calories and protien. Every pound of beef takes many hundreds of pounds of grain to produce.

One of the reasons why hunger still exists in our world is that agricultural resources go to produce meat for the rich, rather than grain for everybody.

If you are really interested in making a difference in world hunger (which you're not), then don't contribute to the meat industry.

by debby hayes Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:52 debzot at yahoo dot com

become vegetarian. don't support the evil capitalist meat industry.

by lone gunman Thu Jan 15, 2004 14:36

To answer the rather odd comparison of aliens who would fancy eating humans with Aushwitz[note the already emotive useof a horror of history to set the theme.]
BTW the death camps were set up by a VEGETARIAN by the name of ADOLF HITLER. Run by all things a former chicken farmer HEINREICH HIMMLER,also a plant eater.[must be a lack of somthing in the diet]

But we digress.If that were to happen ,well it could be intresting,considering that it would be a battle of intelligences and who was smarter in the survival senses.Remember the only reason we survive on this planet is because we are a thinking ape.

Yes,I actually think that would be brilliant.The aliens[somthing along the critters in the film PREDATOR], could gorge themselves on the fat,useless wasters of the human race.About 90% of us.That means alot of peacenicks,tre huggers etc. Then they have to deal with the 10% dangerous critters of humans. We breed a race of fighters from birth,hunted and hunt.Kill or be killed.I like the odds.

Soooo if the chickens want to take us on they had better start getting superior intellect.Somthing that wouldnt be too hard going by some posts here.

by i Thu Jan 15, 2004 15:06

Let me see....

You haven't responded to any of the ideas on this topic with any fact, evidence, ideas or arguments.

You imply that vegetarianism was a cause of Hitler's atrocious policies.

You seem to be saying that no matter what the technical level of alien predators, 10% of humanity would somehow escape them. Perhaps you saw this in a movie?

You have nothing but empty, vacuous, worthless opinion bereft of fact, evidence, argument or idea.

You think that mass cruelty to animals is acceptable, but you don't even know why you think that. Its a self-contained, unconnected, foundationless, disconnected meme that's been put into you by a parent, or marketer or other programmer.

Like I said, no ideas, no fact, no evidence, no argument. Just empty opinion.

Listen, why don't you try - stretch yourself a bit and REALLY think and try to come up with some coherent idea or concept or argument that others can engage with. Go on, TRY.

You can do it!!

by iosaf - slowly slowly best way to do it. Thu Jan 15, 2004 15:55

1. that homo sapiens is the "highest terrestial species".
- no basis for this assertion at all.

2. that birds are not sentient.
- no basis for this assertion either.

3. that the average subsaharan african doesn't care about the pre-death condition of his meat.
- this is simply racist, and discounts the exceedingly complex taboo systems on slaughtering of meat animals and taboo systems on not eating designated unclean animals. Taboo systems which are endemic in the homo sapiens cutural alimentary belief systems globally. Alone amongst the world religions only Christianity in it's _late form_ has not proscribed certain meats, and only in it's late form, Roman Catholics were still obliged to avoid red meat on Fridays and days of obligation, when indeed they were only allowed two "collations" amounting to 4ounces of food during daylight. (ask your granny - if you've a catholic granny)

Western civilisation is based on consumption of meat and drugs, curiously the two most popular types of meat being eaten by Westerners are considered to be unclean by the majority of other humans who exercise eating restrictions. And for good reason, extensive research has proven a link between parasitic infections in the gut in humans and tapeworms from in order of length - Beef, Pork, Fish and Chicken.
A beef tape worm at adult length normally measures about 75 imperial feet which is approximately 26 metres.

Of the most serious species jump infections currently being monitored by the WHO three originated in unclean animals and have no known cure. There is yet no proven link between species jumps in viral activity and the conditions under which animals are kept, but that connection has certainly not been discounted. Of the most un-natural practises accepted as being normal in the North American food industry, that of "canibalism" (feeding of same species reduced protein corpses) is the most disturbing and is quite probably related to such weird new comers to the panacea of woe as Bovine spongey form encaepholomylitis. = de mad cows!

Whether or not we like to eat meat, it is indisputable that if we did not, more human would have food.

the meat on your table is linked to the absence of rice, grain or bread on the tables of South America and Africa.
-that simple.

"The day will come when men such as I shall look upon the murder of animals as they do now on the killing of their fellow men"
- Leonardo da Vinci.

by Gaillimhed Thu Jan 15, 2004 18:20

Most would agree that you wouldnt eat a 'sentient' Animal, like a person or a chimp , a dolphin lets say, on the grounds that its sentient; -Thinking, self aware in some form or other, feels pain, loss, fear etc,.
So, meat eaters, where exactly do you draw the line, -below Human, above chicken presumably. So why dont you eat dogs or cats, or even guinea pigs, budgies?
Would you eat your own dog.....with his big soulful eyes and wagging tail, ....because according to your worldview he does not deserve our respect due to his 'lower' evolutionary status.
Where would you, or do you, draw the line between what is acceptable as food, and what is not, based on your sentience argument?

by I love chicken sambos Thu Jan 15, 2004 20:40

Lets get this quite clear. ALl our ancestors ate meat. If they did not do so human society would not have advanced as we would have spent most of our day foraging instead of spending a few hours every couple of days hunting. This saving of time allowed humans to specialise in the production of tools which brought agriculture and vastly increased wealth in society.

To condemn meat as barbaric is just fluffy, sandal wearing, brown rice cooking, knit your own jumper, grow your own spuds, middle class, utopian bullshit. The fact is that chickens are bred and exist solely to provide food. Those chickens that were 'liberated' would never have been born in the first place if there was not a market for their meat. And I would also contend that their lives are far better in captivity than it would be in the wild. In captivity they do recieve care and vetenary attention, in the wild they would be prey to every fox, cat, dog going.

by I love chicken sambos Thu Jan 15, 2004 20:47

'Gaillimhed ' I would have no problem whatsoever in eating dog or cat meat. In saying that I would not like to eat my own dog or my own cat, because they are my pets, I have a 'relationship' with them. But in theory I would have no problem with eating ANY animal meat. Animals are inferior to humans, an animal life is not the same as a human life.

Hypothetically if given the choice between killing a human child or a dog/chicken/deer/cat I would ALWAYS kill the animal. You probably would toss a coin to make your decision, that is disgusting and barbaric.

by carnie mhór Thu Jan 15, 2004 21:55

Of course our ancestors ate meat ... even human flesh ...
Indeed, cannibalistic instincts are alive and well in modern Europe .....

by David Thu Jan 15, 2004 22:52

lets say human evolution takes a step forward for a proportion of the population, through genetic engineering or whatever and they are now a more advanced species than us. Would you "I love chicken sambos" feel comfortable if this apparently superior race decided it was acceptable to lock all us Homo sapiens into corrugated iron sheds, feed us pellets fatten us up and slaughter us for their own dining pleasure just because we weren't as advanced as they are, lets say they develop telepathic powers or a much better understanding of mathamatics than we are capable.

You who believe yourself to be so evolved has yet to develop any sense of Empathy for your fellow creatures.

It is natural to hunt for your food, it is natural to maintain a balance. it is not natural to enslave hundreds of billions of sensitive so that we might have a choice between Galtee or Denny sausages, or so that we can grow obese and atupid. These farming practises might be the cause of Humanity being the first species in history to actually de-evolve

by i Fri Jan 16, 2004 00:11

Is it OK to eat mentally disabled people, especially those with very low IQs and limited awareness of their world? Is it OK to breed and farm them for food?

Again, where do you draw the line, and why?

Also, to address some more of the ignorance of 'I love chicken sambos'

-There is no clear link between meat eating and the development of agriculture, fire, etc. To keep things in perspective, baboons, almost wholly vegetarian gathers, spend approximately 4 hours a day searching for and eating food. Most of their time is spent socialising. Chimpanzees are similar. There's no reason to think that our own ancestors were any different.

-That chickens were bred for food is no argument to justify the cruelty they are subjected to during their existance. If I bred humans so as to use their skins for lampshades, would that be OK? (They would never have been born in the first place, etc.) Like I said, its not an argument.

-To even suggest that the lives of intensively farmed, 'battery' hens are better than they would be in the wild is to illustrate your deep ignorance of how your food is produced. Of course they don't recieve care and vetenary attention - are you mad. They are mass medicated because the horors of their surrounds cause many to peck themselves and their neighbours. That's also why their beaks are often cut off. Make no mistake, they are treated as ashtrays or cups or other inanimate objects are treated. Each lives their lives in a space about the size of an A4 piece of paper. It is HORRIFIC. Go and visit such a place and educate yourself.

by chicken little Fri Jan 16, 2004 13:15

A leading animal-rights activist has been accused of lying to a grand jury investigating an arson at a timber company and the theft of chickens from an egg farm in Washington state.

Allison Lance-Watson, 45, was released Wednesday for a preliminary hearing next month.

She was charged with making false statements to the grand jury when she denied lending a truck to other activists. Investigators believe the vehicle was used in the arson.

She could get up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040115/ap_on_re_us/animal_rights_arrest_1

also read
http://www.seashepherd.org/media_030911_1.html

by I like chicken sambos Fri Jan 16, 2004 13:26

There is a clear link between the development of agriculture and the commencemnet of hunting for meat. Hunting meat and eating meat was a far more efficient way of providing food. It brought huge savings in time which then could mean that humans could then spend their time concentrating on the production and improvment of tools as well as farming crops and animals. To deny this link is going against established fact just in order to justify your position. This is a stalinist method of history.

Nowhere did I say that the disabled are inferior, or they should be eaten. This is rubbish. It is you that seem to be equating the disabled with animals, not me. Disabled people are human beings they are not animals. They deserve care and assistance from society. Animals are animals their lives are in no way can be equated to human life.

Another thing, it is FACT that animals in captivity have far superior standards of living and life expectancy than they would expect in the wild. When in captivity they are generally fed well, protected from preditorsm cared for properly and have the access to medical treatment. Can you seriously tell me that sheep and cattle would have better lives if they were roaming in the wild where they would fall victim to every kind of disease and predator and would probably starve half the time? humans are unique in being able to create wealth and use technology to increase our standard of living, humans pass this increased standard of living onto the animals that they farm. Animals do not have the capacity to fence fields, have guarenteed food all year and create medicines.

by ipsiphi Fri Jan 16, 2004 14:01

was this direct action?
was this non violent?
was this civil disobedience?
was this a small group action?
or a mass mobilisation?
was is it non-authoritarian?
was it non-heirarchial?
are the ALF more akin to the Catholic Workers or Anarcho-syndicalists?
And do the ALF are it's equivalent, feel they have achieved added interest in their cause?
And do the non extremist vegetarians welcome the meat is murder debate?

by I like chicken sambos Fri Jan 16, 2004 14:12

- Meat is not murder, it is natural. If it is will they take the next logical step and condemn all meat eaters to the death penalty?
- Their actions were elitist and completely undemocratic
- They are an extremist fringe group like CW. The CW oppose abortion and divorce rights and believe in crazy hocus pocus liek transubstantiation and miracles. This group believe that human life and animal life are comparable!
- Their actions are cruel as the chickens involved will be prey to every fox in the area
- They don't deserve the attention they are getting from the ditors of this site, it will only encourage them to do some more irresponsible and childish 'actions'

by i Fri Jan 16, 2004 15:10

In Ireland there is a huge, huge difference between how cattle and sheep are treated and how pigs, poultry and some animals 'farmed' for their fur are treated.

Cattle and sheep live quite high quality lives except for the last few days. (This is not the case in many other countries where cows and other animals are also 'factory farmed'. It is a result of ireland's grass-growing potential).

The vast bulk of Irish pigs and chickens, however, live in conditions of complete horror. That's HORROR. A pig is as intelligent and aware as a dog. Imagine a huge shed of dogs, never having seen sunlinght or felt ground, caged in cages litle bigger than their bodies, without stimulation or the ability to do natural behaviours.

The idea that these animals have "far superior standards of living and life expectancy " is DEEPLY, DEEPLY IGNORANT.

As I said, educate yourself. READ about intensive farming and, if possible, go and VISIT some.

Factory, intensive farming of animals is the treatment of living beings as products/things for the purpose of efficiency and with no regard whatsoever for their subjective experience. It is a recent phenomona (mostly less than 50 years old).

Also, can you provide ANY support, evidence, references, etc. to support your claim that human development was a result of meat eating? It wasn't. In fact, apart from a few groups, like the Inuit, meat has NOT been the main part of human diet. MOST of the food of MOST people today and in the past is and was vegetables.

Your idea that meat eating somehow prompted human development is an ignorant one and is certainly not 'history'. Let me say again, it is your ignorance, not reality. But in any event, it does not justify the horror being visited on factory 'farmed' pigs and chickens today.

Finally, cab I ask you again (since you still haven't answered) - Where do you draw the line between beings it is possible to torture and kill for meat (i.e. whose internal, subjective experience of living has no worth whatsoever).

What is it that you think gives you the right to torture animals for cheap meat? What gives you the right to disregard the nightmare of their Autzwitz-like conditions?

Is it their lower intelligence? Is it some religious belief? Is it their non-human form?

And would it be permissible to treat you and your own family and friends and neighbours like that as long as the perpertrators has more of whatever you feel it is that makes such nightmare and horror morally acceptable?

by Lone gunman Fri Jan 16, 2004 15:51

Insulting and fails miserably.well as usual the nature Nazis when confronted with a different opinion[meaning you I] go back to their usual rehoritic of emotialism and insults.

YES it is historically PROVEN that there was a certain brain defect in Hitler caused proably by the lack of somthing in his diet.Take it up with the medical nutritionists.

I am assuming nothing Re the Alien superior /survivour arguement .You idiots brought it up .it is a totally vacous,unrealistic unproveable ,either which way arguement,which ALF and all the other cuddly bunny terror groups are so fond of.

YES I think it is perfectly acceptable to eat animals in any shape or form.[domestic pets included]I even agree with cannibalism in times of dire need.It is even acceptable in in the Christian religion.Check out Duternomy[sic] latter part.
I,and 99.9% of the pouplation do so as well,and a bunch of crackpot wannabe terrorists are not going to change that.

Creulty. Hmm lets see ,put two chickens out in the wild.No chance of flying ,fleeing,or fending for themselves.Survival chances NIL.
But oh no it was a "symbolic gesture" Symbolic of those peoples struggle with reality more like.

Like no doubts the other great lies of ALF that they are not a terrorist group.
Why was their PR man Robin Webb in the UK up on explosives charges a few years ago.?Why was Barry Horne convicted of explosive charges and died on hunger strike in the nick?Slimming for the animals?

oh well at least if some disaster ever happens I as a carnivore will be able to get plenty of meat.just kill an ALF plant eater,they will be too weak and feeble to survive in the wild . Hmmm roast haunch of ALF activist....

by i Fri Jan 16, 2004 17:06

Not a fact. Not a reference. Not a piece of evidence. Not an idea. Not even an argument. Nothing.

Just an empty opinion. A clinging to what you've been told. Truth is lies and lies is truth and right is wrong and horror is good and up is down and everything is nothing and who cares as long as myself and what I know as normal doesn't have to change. Such seems to be 'Lone gunman' s' sad perspective.

This is frustrating, since he has no facts or examples to counter, no arguments with which to engage, no ideas to exchange. Just his empty ignorance and his sacred, hollow 'opinion'.

Its not too late, 'Lone gunman'. Stop watching so much TV and start reading more books and then maybe, some day, you too will be able to have your own ideas and your opinions will be real because they will be based on something.

Moving on, there are two issues here.

The first is whether it is OK to eat meat or not (although its clearly not healthy to eat a lot of meat). However this isn't the issue that the ALF or groups like Compassion in World Farming are highlighting.

They are highlighting the second issue, which is the absolutely HORRIFIC AND NIGHTMARISH conditions that animals are kept in for reasons of 'economic efficiency'. In Ireland it is pigs and chickens who suffer this nightmare, elsewhere cows and other animals also find themselves in such hell. This is a new phenomona - less than 50 years old.

The issue here is not about eating meat it is about torturing other beings. However it is very hard to efend such horror, which is why so much is done to divert attention away from it and why ignoramusus such as 'Lone gunman' and 'I like chicken sambos ' avoid it.

by David Fri Jan 16, 2004 17:34

how do you figure that?

by I love fruit and veg! Fri Jan 16, 2004 17:50

If you believe in evolution by natural selection, how can you believe that feelings suddenly appeared, out of the blue, with human beings?

and if other life forms have feelings, how can you justify keeping them in dark cages only slightly bigger than their own body for their whole lives?

by Arts Bum Fri Jan 16, 2004 22:38

figure this...

"If we really believe that animals have the same right to be free from pain and suffering at our hands, then, of course we’re going to be, as a movement, blowing things up and smashing windows … I think it’s a great way to bring about animal liberation … I think it would be great if all of the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories, and the banks that fund them exploded tomorrow. I think it's perfectly appropriate for people to take bricks and toss them through the windows ... Hallelujah to the people who are willing to do it."
— Bruce Friedrich, PETA’s vegan campaign coordinator, at the “Animal Rights 2001” conference

''Arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are acceptable crimes when used for the animal cause.''
- Alex Pacheco, co-founder of PETA

''...I can support that kind of action by petrol bombing and bombs under their cars, and probably at a later stage, the shooting of vivisectors on their doorsteps. It's a war.''
- Tim Daley, British ALF activist during a BBC interview

''I would be overjoyed when the first scientist is killed by a liberation activist.''
- Vivien Smith, ALF spokesperson speaking to USA Today

by I love chicken sambos Sat Jan 17, 2004 02:53

'lone gunman' I find it utterly repulsive and deeply sickening that you compare a few chickens held in captivity with the Jews in the Nazi holocaust camps. The Jews are human beings, they are not animals. It is this kind of thinking that Hitler used to justify the holocaust. Are you some kind of anti semetic or bigot or what?

I love fruit and veg:
"If you believe in evolution by natural selection, how can you believe that feelings suddenly appeared, out of the blue, with human beings?and if other life forms have feelings, how can you justify keeping them in dark cages only slightly bigger than their own body for their whole lives?"

I never denied that animals have some feelings, nowhere near as complex as the human being though. Chickens and fish etc are less intelligent than humans they do not have a very complex range of feelings but of course do suffer stress when mistreated. I have never advocated mistreatment of chickens or any animal. All animals should be treated properly. It could well be the case that these chickens were being mistreated, that is a disgrace and I would fully support any group that tried to alleviate the suffering of the chikens. In saying all this I do not endorse the 'freeing' of chickens, this would lead to their probable death, this is cruelty also in my opinion. I also disagree with the insinuation that if I eat meat then I am pro-animal cruelty, this is complete bollocks. There is nothing wrong with an animal that is treated properly and then slaughtered humanely being eaten. ANIMAL LIFE IS NOT THE SAME AS HUMAN LIFE.

by no name Sat Jan 17, 2004 13:56

I think, 'Chicken Sambos', the main flaw in your arguement is that you you believe in an irrational division between what you call 'humans' and 'animals'. This division seems to be reinforced by the same type of ignorance by which fascists use words like 'nigger'. The only thing that devides humans (as in, 'us') from lower animals is the evolutionary process and that's hardly a fair basis to judge from.
Were it necessary to eat meat for survival, I would certainly do so. But it's not, and that means meat eating is, ultimately, something you do for pleasure. If you're against cruelty then how can you possibly justify the horror of mass meat production when its exploitive nature is there as a means of pleasure alone? Where do you draw the line? Badger-baiting, there's no need for that, it's done for pleasure, so what's the difference? I would argue, none.

by David Sat Jan 17, 2004 14:03

And if, as you claim, you would be against the mistreatment of animals, then you should be a discerning consumer, only buy organically farmed meat from sources that treat their animals humanely.

by curious orange Sat Jan 17, 2004 14:04

Two points of interest in this article from the Liffey Champion.
(i) the paper claims the ALF rehomed the animals rather than releasing them. This would be more in tune with how the ALF usually operates. I believe the only animals that the ALF usually free without rehoming are fur animals. Anyway, if they were releasing them into the wild durely they would have been able to take more than two?!
(ii) The 'honest' owner has made an invitation to concerned people. Someone one closer to the farm or in Dublin, should check it out. That would cut out a lot of the stupid arguements in this thread.


Celbridge chicken farm owner refutes claims by animal activists.

The owner of the Enfield Broiler Farm in Celbridge has said that claims made by the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) in relation to his are completely unfounded.
Members of the ALF went to the farm on the Hazelhatch Road early last Friday morning (9th) and took two of the chickens with the purpose of rehoming them. They nick-named the two 'Ginger' and 'Rocky', after two of the characters in the animation film 'Chicken Run'.
John Mayer, one of the directors of the Enfield Broiler Farm established in 1974, told LIFFEY CHAMPION on Wednesday (14th) that a statement from the ALF contained false allegations about the farm.
"They said that the chickens were overfed and nearing their slaughter age of 42 days," he said.
"This is completely untrue; these chickens are breeding chickens. They were laying at the time they were taken."
The ALF contradicted this, saying that the birds are broiler birds, bred for meat.
The organisation also stated that the birds were found lying in their own excrement. Mr Mawer said that this was also incorrect.
"If they had bothered to look, they would have seen that the birds are in shavings so that they can have dust-baths. This is completely natural."
"They have perching areas and are in a totally natural environment. They are not outside at the moment because they would freeze to death."
"We operate an open policy here; we do not have anything of value and we welcome anyone who wants to come along and inspect the birds. They can just make an appointment with us and we will show them around."
"As far as I am concerned, we have nothing to hide. We comply with all EU welfare standards."
He said that the ALF had stolen the birds and not, as they said, 'released' them. However, he did not report the incident to the Gardai because he felt there would be 'no point'.
"If they have nothing better to do but go around stealing chickens and having their pictures taken wearing balaclavas, good luck to them," he says.
The statement released by the ALF alleged 'gross cruelty and neglect' at the farm and said that such 'broiler birds' in most cases live their short lives 'without ever seeing daylight or feeling grass beneath their feet'.
Mr Mawer pointed to the fact that a recent legal challenge against broiler breeding in the UK courts failed.
The ALF said, however, that it will 'continue the battle on behalf of other species until all are free'.
"We will be entering other abuse establishments and increasing our efforts to highlight other intensive farming practices," they stated.
"We will be urging other groups to call on the Department of Agriculture, the ISPCA and the Gardai to investigate breaches of the law that require animals to be treated in a way that promotes 'a positive state of well being'."

by dave Sat Jan 17, 2004 18:02

This looks like a punishment beating being handed out by the 'Ra.

by Lone Gunman Sat Jan 17, 2004 20:32

Chicken sambo
may I suggest a primary school literacy course.Like maybe first class ladybird books?
If you had read the post properly ,you would see that it was "I " that started off the whole Aushwitz/factory debate.Try getting a grown up to help you with the big words!!
Funnily enough "I" is not so up on PETA/ALF world affairs. The PETA[sinn fein of the animal Nazis]. tried this campain in the USA last Sept .Untill it ran afoul of the Anti Defmation Leauge of Brini Baath. This is a Jewish leauge that keeps the Shoa[hebrew for fire and their description of the Holocaust] alive. They threatened PETA with a class action suit. PETA pulled in its tail and slunk off into the nite. Bet "I "never checked this out with his Furher hauptquatier.
Moving right along "I" you are some cookie! You accuse me of providing no links,arguement etc.Yet YOU provide NOTING either to justify your campain or reasons as to why you are a violent plant eater?Maybe you are just a fustrated teenager who wants to kick the traces over abit?You really are not that up on PETA or ALF are you?? otherwise I think you could come up with some sort of feeble excuse to defend Barry Horne [ convicted bomb maker and fortuneatly dead] Or Robin Webb,ALF terrorist at large.
Or maybe you could explain why the PETA?ALF website has such "inflammatory" titles in its libary?
Arson Around with Auntie ALF A manual of DIY incenderaies
The infamous CIA black books[aka improvised weapons&munitions]
how to make a cats cradle[electronic igniter for incendaries].
or maybe why the FBI rated ALF&ELF as more dangerous[pre 9/11] than any of the neo nazi militas?
Be intrested in hearing your justifications,excuses or whatever.[If you can think of any]Or will you try and insult me again?Try your best ,but I must warn you,I dont fight unarmed people!

by I love chicken sambos Sun Jan 18, 2004 21:20

'no name' you are a fool. How can you say my catogorisation between human and animal is 'irrarional' and the same as racists catogorising people as 'nigger' and 'aryan'? The division between animal and human is very rational. A black man is a human being they are not animals. They belong to the human species. There is a very clear difference between a human and an animal. Humans cannot breed with animals they are a different species. I am very disturbed with continual references to racism when justifying the actions of these idiots. Are all anti meat people closet nazi's or something?

I am against animal cruelty, any sane person is. I find the deliberate causing of suffering to an animal for pleasure utterly sick, practices like badger baiting, fox hunting and so on is barbaric. The mass production of meat is not neccesarily cruel. Animals can be treated properly and humanely and slaughtered in such a way so the animal does not suffer. You're argument against meat is not the cruelty of farming but it is a moral one. You equate the life of an animal to the life of a human. Some of you even seem to equate the life of a chicken with the life of a Jew or African.

David your argument is a middle class argument. Organic meat is of a higher quality and there is a guarentee that the animals are treated properly. i would love to be able to buy organic food but I can't because it is too expensive. How can you blame me for animal cruelty because I can't afford to buy organic. Your argument puts the blame onto working class people who you see as being responsible because they buy cheaper non organic food. It is not the worker you should blame it is the battery farmer and the state who regulates the industry.

by i Sun Jan 18, 2004 22:29

'I love chicken sambos' finds it "repulsive and deeply sickening that [I] compare a few chickens held in captivity with the Jews in the Nazi holocaust camps". Here's why I think that 'I love chicken sambos' is not only incorrect and hypocritical, but supportive of horror and monstrocity TODAY.

We are not talking about 'a few chickens'. Worldwide there are 9 BILLION “broiler” chickens raised in sheds EACH YEAR. And that's not counting laying hens (98% of which spend their lives in cages on factory farms), pigs (60 million pigs caged in factory farms in the US alone), cattle (often caged, although not in Ireland) and other animals. (1)

We are also not talking about simply being "held in captivity". We are talking about animals spending their lives in wire cages little bigger than their own bodies, never seeing sunlight, never touching the ground, never being able to engage in natural behaviour. Many become insane, plucking themselves, beating their heads against walls and bars, engaging in repeditive behaviour. Indeed, some nightmarish pig farms add anti-depressants to the food supply in order to cut down on 'wastage' (dead animals). (2)

To compare such nightmare, such pain, and such absolute, mechanised and efficient HORROR to the holocaust, is quite reasonable, and does not detract from the horror suffered by human beings during that monstrocity. There are many similarities between the human holocaust and the nightmare now being experienced by most 'farmed' animals (see http://www.masskilling.com). Pointing out such similarities certainly has nothing to do with anti-semitism. Raising awareness about the horror that animals are suffering today is to attempt to reduce cruelty and suffering, not to condone or justify it.

But you do, 'I love chicken sambos'. The chicken in the sambos that you love are the body parts of an animal that has spent its entire life in a horrific nightmare. It never had a chance to practice ANY natural behaviour. It likely had its beak cut off at a young age (a very painful procedure) because insanity as a result of its situation would have led it to pluck itself and its neighbours, leading to diseases and reduced profit margins.

You say that you "have never advocated mistreatment of chickens or any animal", but you do worse. You PAY for such mistreatment (and it is HORRIFIC, NIGHTMARISH mistreatment) and it is done FOR you, on YOUR behalf.

Please end your condoning and support for this horror. If you are serious that you "would fully support any group that tried to alleviate the suffering of the chikens", then STOP eating anything but free range eggs, chickens or pigs. And the group to support is Compassion in World Farming - see http://www.ciwf.ie .

(1) http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=103
(2) http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=111

Where your eggs and chicken come from

by David Sun Jan 18, 2004 22:30

So you say that consumer action against cruel farming practices dont work and that we should target the farmers and the state, yet when some people actually go out and do this you oppose it ?

by i Sun Jan 18, 2004 22:42

'I love chicken sambos', your statement "The mass production of meat is not neccesarily cruel" is ignorant, uneducated and uninformed. Yes, the mass production of meat IS neccesarily cruel. Treating animals as individual living beings is MUCH more expensive than treating them as inanimate objects (and the lable 'organic' does not necessairly mean 'humane').

However you are correct that "animals can be treated properly and humanely and slaughtered in such a way so the animal does not suffer". The problem is that this is much more expensive than treating them as things and ignoring their suffering.

You say, "I would love to be able to buy organic food but I can't because it is too expensive". Don't worry, there is still an alternative to condoning and supporting horrific cruelty to animals - just don't eat bits of the bodys of animals that have been treated that way. The majority of people in the world eat vegetables for a majority of their meals. Why not join them?

by i Sun Jan 18, 2004 23:27

'Lone Gunman' - PETA currently operate a website highlighting similarities between the holocaust and the current horror being experienced by industrially 'farmed' animals. You can see this website now at http://www.masskilling.com. There is also a discussion of the appropriateness of using such comparisons on the website, including arguments for and against. The images on the website are also available as a display. Obviously PETA has NOT "pulled in its tail and slunk off into the nite".

So you have eventually provided a fact, and it is wrong. In contrast I have stated MANY, MANY facts concerning factory 'farmed' animals and how they are treated. I made statements on how chickens can live outdoors in Ireland, on the diets of primates, on the intestine lengths of carnivores vs herbivores, and much more. I have included links and even photographs. You, in contrast, have provided nothing but ignorant insult and empty, unsupported opinion. Perhaps you would like to respond to some of my points now?

People can find out more about the Animal Liberation front at http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ (PETA, a different organisation and kind of organisation, can be found at http://www.peta.org). Personally I have no problem with property damage when it is done to highlighting the horrors that so many animals are experiencing, although I wouldn't do it myself (I prefer using words). I do have a problem with hurting or killing people though. It seems obvious to me that sinking to the level of monsters yourself can't do anybody any good.

'Lone Gunman', despite your lack of information and your inability to engage a real argument, you do seem to particularly connected with this issue. Are you defending the mass-processing of living beings for the meat industry? If so, why? Or are you just criticising the tactics of some who fight against the horror? If so, why not say why you disagree with these tactics and suggest other, more effective tacts your self?

Or are you just a gobshite who eats nightmare-'farmed' meat and can't face the reality of what you're involved in?

The reality behind your chicken...

by no name Mon Jan 19, 2004 00:23

>How can you say my catogorisation between human and animal is 'irrarional' and the same as racists catogorising people as 'nigger' and 'aryan'?<

Well, read what you wrote, you still haven't bothered to describe what it is that makes it justifiable to divide animals from humans to such an extent whereby expolitation and murder of the later is completely acceptable. Of course there's a difference between humans and animals - they're not the same types of animal. Do you think I'm stupid, I'm aware of the fact that humans belong a species seperate of other animals! But that difference alone is not justifiable unless you can actually reason as to what is it that makes this division so radically different. Animals, like us, have capabilities to suffer, is that alone not a good enough reason to be opposed to animal abuse?

>I am very disturbed with continual references to racism when justifying the actions of these idiots. Are all anti meat people closet nazi's or something?<

I think you're disturbed alright. Were it feminism (for eg.) we were agruing about and I compared the treatment of women with that of non-whites you wouldn't be offended, but no, compare animal abuse to human exploitation and you're a nazi! Due you have a sense of guilt or something? I'm as firmly an anti-fascist as I am pro-animal rights and you'd be hard pressed to find a rascist AR activist.

>I am against animal cruelty, any sane person is. I find the deliberate causing of suffering to an animal for pleasure utterly sick, practices like badger baiting, fox hunting and so on is barbaric. The mass production of meat is not neccesarily cruel<

Hold on a second, you've completely bypassed my argument. My point is that meat eating is for pleasure ONLY and you've said you're against killing for pleasure but failed to rebuff that meat eating is for pleasure! Come on now, you can do better! Don't talk shit about fox-hunting etc. of course it's wrong - it's killing for pleasure exactly the same as meat.

The division between animal and human is very rational. A black man is a human being they are not animals. They belong to the human species. There is a very clear difference between a human and an animal. Humans cannot breed with animals they are a different species. I am very disturbed with continual references to racism when justifying the actions of these idiots. Are all anti meat people closet nazi's or something?

>You're argument against meat is not the cruelty of farming but it is a moral one. You equate the life of an animal to the life of a human<

Of course it's a moral one. I, like most activists, have a moral sense when it comes to justice. That's the founding blocks of leftism.

>Some of you even seem to equate the life of a chicken with the life of a Jew or African<

Would appreciate an example of this. I think you should start reading something about AR that ISN'T written by the shock-horror media and conservative propaganda groups that folk like Lone Gunman seem to be obsessed by.

As to Lone Gunman, wake up you idiot, the ALF is a self-described direct action group - it's no secret that it usese incendiary devices - that would be like proclaiming the IRA uses guns!
As to why the FBI considers the ALF as a bigger threat than neo-nazis. Might it be that the ALF & ELF regularly take action against corporate Amerika and are responsible for crippling enormous corporations where neo-nazis actually distract attention from the corporate destruction whom the FBI are guardians of? Furthermore, ALF&ELF have in the past directed campaigns towards gvernment owned laboratories.

by Séan Og O'Baoil - Blue Army of the Blessed Virgin (Provisional Organising Committee) Mon Jan 19, 2004 03:25

Chickens Liberated in Kildare....I wasnt in the best of moods til I saw this piece. Thanks Lads.

Funny thing I'd swear thats Des Dalton in the picture?

by I love chicken sambos Mon Jan 19, 2004 13:16

You state "To compare such nightmare, such pain, and such absolute, mechanised and efficient HORROR to the holocaust, is quite reasonable".

This is what I find disgusting about your argument. Animal life is not the same as human life, you seem to be saying that the killing of 6 million Jews is the same as killing an equal number of CHICKENS. That is disgusting you are either lowering the Jewish people to the status of chickens or bringing up chickens to the standard of Jews. Both ideas are at best bizarre at worse racist.

When talking about the disgusting practices of battery farmers you exclaim that I 'PAY for such mistreatment'. Maybe I do, but I do not support it. I need to buy food in order to survive. All things that are produced whether it be vegetables, clothes, CD players, or whatever are produced with exploited labour. Under capitalism all work is to a certain extent exploitative. Should we therefore boycott all goods? Of course not, no logical person thinks that we should return to the dark ages. You should be blaming the farmers and the state for such treatment not me, the working class consumer who has no real choice but to buy these goods.

You also say that "The majority of people in the world eat vegetables for a majority of their meals. Why not join them?"

This may be the case but is this out of choice? Most of the world has no choice in what they eat. You an I might as we live in Western Europe but a large proportion of the worlds population only eat one meal a day, they will eat what they can. I choose to eat meat because it is nutricious, I know I could eat other sources of protein but I like the taste of meat. I see nothing wrong with enjoying what you eat. Meals should be enjoyable, I'd prefer a nice steak or chicken sambo rather than a big plate of spinich sprinkled with self indulgent moral rectitude.

In general the anti meat brigade on this site seem to be making two main points that I find completely wrong as do most people.
1. Animal life and human life are the same. It is just as morally wrong to kill a chicken as it is to kill a human.
2. That it is primarily the fault of the working class consumer who buys meat that barbaric conditions exist in some farms. In making this argument ye are letting the farmer and the state and competely accepting the market as a mechanism of bringing a better society

by i Mon Jan 19, 2004 17:43

First let me deal with the irrelelevant Red Herring/Straw Man that you are using to avoid facing the horror that you support and are involved with. NOBODY has said that animal life is "the same" as human life. NOBODY has said that the killing of 6 million people is "the same" as killing an equal number of chickens. NOBODY has said ANYTHING anti-semitic (or anti-Gypsy, anti-homosexual, or anti any other holocaust victim). In fact, you are the only one who has mentioned the word 'Jews' (others have said 'people' or 'human beings' when refering to holocaust victims).

Furthermore, YOU KNOW, as do other readers of this board, that those arguing against the horror of industrial, factory 'farming' are motivated by an abhorance of unspeakable cruelty and injustice, and NOT by anti-semitism or other predjudice. Claiming otherwise is a cheap attempt at deflecting the REAL issue and motivated by YOUR OWN INVOLVEMENT in unspeakable cruelty and horror and your understandable discomfort at that involvement.

Having said that, there are clear, obvious similarities between what is done to many animals today and what was done to human beings 60 years ago in Poland (thats *similarities*, not *equalities*, - got that?). These similarities include the mechanised, systemic 'processing' of the victims, the supreme goal of 'efficiency' and complete disregard for the pain and horror experienced by the victims, the mass bloodshed, casual death and other unspeakable horrors and the complicity of many people who condone and support the horror but don't want to know about the details of its reality.

Which brings us to the involvement and practical support of 'I love Chicken sambos' for the nightmare meat industry (which is, no doubt, his motivation for defending it and deflecting attempts to raise awareness of the reality of it).

You say that you pay for the mistreatment of animals, but do not support it. How do you get your head around that convolution? You say that the horrific cruelty is the fault of the farmers and the government, but not you, and that you have no choice (OF COURSE YOU HAVE A CHOICE - just ask any vegetarian). You are right that there is nothing wrong with enjoying what you eat, but there are, of course, many, many other alternatives to nightmare-farmed meat than "spinich sprinkled with self indulgent moral rectitude". In fact, you have a huge range of choices. Why don't you look into some of them?

Convolutions aside, your bottom line seems to be that you "like the taste of meat" and that overrides any concern or disquiet about animals as intelligent and emotionally aware as dogs or 3-year old chilren being kept in small, dark wire cages for their entire lives. You "like the taste of meat", so you support the nightmare with your money. Its the government's fault, or the farmer's fault, or the system's fault, but you have no responsibility whatsoever. After all, you "like the taste of meat".

You are as corrupted as the system you support.

Finally, in reply to the second of your two points (I have dealt with the first above):

You say that it is wrong to fault the "working class consumer" who buys meat for the barbaric conditions exist in some farms and that in making this argument [I am] letting the farmer and the state [escape responsibility] and competely accepting the market as a mechanism of bringing a better society".

First of all, the barbaric conditions do not exist only on "some farms". In Ireland they exist on ALL pig 'farms', and on the VAST MAJORITY of chicken farms. It is understandable that you continue to attempt to minimise the horror with which you are involved, but it is, like so much of the meat industry, a lie.

Secondly, nobody has said that industrial, factory 'farmers', governments, or trans-national agencies do not have huge responsibility for the nightmare that is happening around us. Compassion in World Farming lobbies governments and campaigns against the WTO rules that inhibit animal welfare laws, for example. The story that began this exchange was an 'attack' on a farm, not a consumer.

However the fact that farms and government have responsibility for the horrific nightmare of industrial, factory 'farming' does not mean that YOU, the person whom it is done for, who pays for it, and who consumes the 'product' has no responsibility.

This horrific crime and vast, pain-filled nightmare is done FOR you and is paid for BY you, by YOUR CHOICE.

You do indeed have responsibility.

They never see the light, never feel the ground...

by Lone gunman Tue Jan 20, 2004 17:32

I you are a fucking moron.I said i eat meat.I DO NOT GIVE A FUCK wether it is farmed,wild or domestic or whatever.I grew up and live on a farm.I dont have any allusions as to how or where it comes from.My choice.Animals are there to be USED and domesticated.NOT abused.YOU and the Animal terrorists are not going to change it.
why BTW didnt you post the Holocaust link of the defmation case by the ADL?might knock some truth into your propaganda?Or scared that your sacred ox might be gored?As far as I am concerned you and ALF and your type are disgusting morons who should be shot on sight as you profess to be terrorists.So there fore counter terrorist tactics of the extreme kind can be employed against you?
For those who REALLY do care about HUMAN misery being exploited by The ALF and its other disgusting lackeys.May I suggest a visit to the Anti defamation leauge and find the comments from Shoa survivors about being compared to domestic chickens.
ALF Absolute Looney Fucks

by Lone Gunman Tue Jan 20, 2004 17:41

So ALf is a direct action [PCspeak for terrorist?] group,that has attacked federal buildings,etc.funnily enough TWO of the attacks were against labs that were researching AIDS and cancer treatment.The attacks put back the work by ten years.But that is ok in the sick name of animal liberation?
Good that they declared themselves as terrorists .Now the full force of the patriot act 2001 and ALL the counter terrorist measures can be brought against these morons.{inc hopefully you &yours].
hopefully the Irish&UK govts will get some sense and proscribe the animal terrorists as they did the RA and the other bomb chuckers.Although I reckon genuine terrorists would hold this lot in contempt as much as ordinary decent criminals would hold child molestors.there isnt much difference between a ALF and a kidder snatcher INMHO.
BTW ever wonder why so many ALF firebombs blow up on their makers?The instructions are sabotaged!! You lot go figure which part tho.

by Lone Gunman Tue Jan 20, 2004 17:58

Forgot to mention your link you posted is down.Hmmmm wonder why???
BTW you should read your ALF website TIPS for protest. there is a very good pointer there on convincing people of your arguements. I& no Brain obvisouly didnt read that piece,going by their comments to anyone who doesnt agree with them implicity
ROTFLAMO

by ger Tue Jan 20, 2004 19:58

but LG you sound like a complete looney.

by i Wed Jan 21, 2004 01:13

So you're a farmer, Lone Gunman? What kind of farm do you and your family have? Is it a modern pig farm, perhaps? Does it consist of half a dozen vast sheds, each divided into row after row of 10ft. square, bare, concrete pens, each crammed with as many pigs as possible? Do you keep the shed dark except for feeding times (it keeps them quieter, doesn't it, Lone Gunman?)? Do you add antibiotics or even anti-depressents to the feed, to cut down on 'wastage' and increase the survival rate and meat yield? Disease does seem to spread in those conditions, doesn't it?

Or are you a modern chicken farmer, Lone Gunman? Do you have sheds full of tens of thousands of hens, each in a A4 wire cage that is all they've known for their entire adult lives? Do you walk through the sheds, past thousands and thousands of birds who have never felt the wind, never seen sunshine, never pecked in the dirt, picking up the eggs that roll down into the wire gutter? How is production anyways? Do the food additives help?

Or is your farm the kind of farm that many people still tell themselves is the source of their pig and chicken meat? Maybe its primarily a tillage or Irish daily farm, with only a few chickens or pigs living a free and relatively natural life for the farmhouse kitchen? If that *is* where you get your eggs, chicken and pig flesh then you must know that you are unusual. The VAST, VAST majority of eggs, chicken and pig flesh (rashers, sausages, pork, ham, beacon, etc.) come from intensive, industrial, factory 'farms'. Auschwitz 'farms'.

It is interesting that neither you, nor 'I love Chicken sambos' have responded even once to the points that I have made and supported again and again and again. Do you deny that the VAST MAJORITY of eggs, chicken and pig flesh sold in Ireland come from industrial, factory 'farms' like the ones described above and in places like Brazil and Thailand (where conditions are often worse)? Do you dispute the conditions in which these animals are kept? Or are you arguing that these animals are somehow not aware of the cruelty that they suffer?

No, you have not done that. In fact, yourself and 'I love Chicken sambos' have barely mentioned the animals that are the subject of the ALF protest, the subject of PETA and CIWF campains, the subject of the many websites I have linked to above, and the subject of these posts.

Instead you have tried to change the topic to the percieved sins Percieved by you, that is) of animals rights activists. "They are anti-semites"; "They are morons"; They are terrorists"; They are "like kidder snatchers" and "should be shot on sight ".

But nowhere do you even attempt to address the facts: that in the past 50 years an intensive, industrial system of economically efficient meat 'production' has developed that pays not attention whatsoever to the subjective experience of the beings it 'processes' and that condemns BILLIONS upon BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of aware, emotional, sentient beings to lives of PAIN, MISERY AND HORROR.

There is a reason that you do not address the facts. It is that you cannot counter them because they are the truth and, unable to face the reality of what you are a part of and what you are, you strike out at the message bearer. "Its not my fault that I eat Auschwitz", you cry, as you curse those that maintain and raise awareness of your crime. As you turn your eyes from the horror that you support, you become angry with those who keep the reality in front of you.

And it is not only that you cannot counter, or argue or even discuss the reality of the industrial 'farming' of animals, it is THAT YOU CANNOT EVEN FACE IT.

You disgust me.


Finally, in answer to some of the points you raise:

-I did not post the link to "the Holocaust link of the defmation case by the ADL" , not because I am avoiding the truth (I think its clear who's avoiding the truth) but because I have not seen it. Why don't you post the link? It would make a refreshing change from you posting nothing but your empty opinion.

-The link for the ALF 'Handy Tips for Activists' (see: http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Handy%20Tips%20for%20Activists.html ) includes 'Community Outreach Methods' and 'Effective Letter Writing Tips'. The section on 'Helpful Tips for Effective Protesting' includes the advice "Be polite at all times", "Dress conservatively", "While standing at the protest, stand upright and don't drink or smoke while you're working.", and "If you are leafleting, walk towards people with a friendly look on your face". What is it you are objecting to, its effectiveness?

-The PETA site looking at similarities between the industrial 'farming' of animals and the holocaust is not down and never has been (despite your paranoia). I inadvertantly included a bracket in the above link. See http://www.masskilling.com

'Collateral damage' in modern, economically efficient 'farming'

by canasucre Tue Jan 27, 2004 20:05

hello, i'm french and i know that exemples of actions like the one you describe do exist in other places.
freedom for "faisans" (i don't know the translation, wild couloured bird often hunt in fields and woods of europe), distribution of informations in front of circus, kfc's restaurants.......
the reactions of other people are always violent, insulting, abusively using historical examples. some people write poetry about "anti-specism" actions and groups that says anti-specist people do fuck every one!!!
nevermind , we will go on.

by Lone gunman Tue Jan 27, 2004 21:28

With more emotive crap! Greif! Do you ever dry up on the propaganda and emotive BShit???
To take your points. No we dont have a farm anymore.For the simple reason that it was a mixed small holding with a bit of everything.Now that is a totally unecnomical proposition these days.Went to agricultural college,saw all the modern methods of farming,battery farms,pig rearing ,etc etc.so I will proably have more experiance of these methods than you will ever have.
[Apart from the only one or two times you have been on a farm wearing a balaclava and carrying a baseball bat].
So anything you are trying to shock me with is just so hohumm. I would certainly say I would not approve of it.BUT it is the only efficent and cost effective way of farming. called being realistic,somthing with you are having a difficulty grasping.Keep trying youll get it sooner or later.Farming like anything is a busisness.The only farms that make money are large farms.Ergo ,if the masses want meat ,eggs,whatever you are going to have to mass produce it.Tough on the animals,but they are a product..Yes large farms and meat factories are cruel.Understand?But thats the way things are.Grow up and get over it.Dont go off on any rant now about not caring about the animal;s.Farmers have a pragmatic view of animals,they are the product.Did the pet calf,rear it ,sell it slaughter it ,eat it thing.
But no doubt I you will find some fault with that as well. It just shows your total ignorance I of modern farming practises
How else are you going to harvest or gather in 3000 eggs a day?3000 hens in a field will have a one acre field stripped nbare in a week of grass.Not to mention their dung is a high poullatant,so your groundwater is going to get an extra high amount of fecal matter in it as well.Please inform us as to the "humane" way of farming on a large scale as to be [1] cost efficent [2]less poullating [3] less disease carrying[4]more productive. if you can tell us that Ill be a millionare overnite.
Or is this REALLY about enforcing a minority view of a few degenerates on the majority of humanity?By using any means violence included?Answer that.
Free range works fine on a small scale,and I am all for free range and organic farming[as anyone who does it sucessfully is laughing all the way to the bank on charging DOUBLE for their products,to the eco types]. But it is impractible if you need a mass product and fast.quite frankly,people do not give a fuck wether their burger was a suffering cow or a happy cow.it is food and that is all they care about.
if I disgust you. YOU REVOLT ME and any right thinking person.How DARE you compare a farm or a chicken to the worst human genocide on this planet??? If I was Jewish I would be out hunting for you and your ilk.You are a morally bankrupt person if you can compare an animal as to being worth more than a human life.you compare battery farms etc to the death camps?well then you and your types should be compared to NAZIS.Because that is what you are in mindset,tactics,and goals. And the leader of the Nazis was a plant eater as well.So you might as well if you dont already have him as a father figure!
You and your groups are morally bankrupt,minority terrorists,who are losing pouplarity that you have to resort to terrorism by no other word to obtain your dubious and sick ends.
BTW I posted that your masskilling link DOES NOT WORK!Are you that stupid as not to understand that??It STILL does not work.[Despite your arrogance]
here is another link to ALF that might give people to think as to what sort of people you are dealing with
www.animalliberation.net/libary/wakeup.html
www.animal-liberation.net
Arson around with auntie ALF. Still trying to make firebombs and claiming to be peaceful??
Its amazing BTW that your handy tip for activists had to point out how to act normally to its members.Any other SANE group has being this as a matter of course.Why? Because if you disagreed with ALF or PETA activists they would proably throw a tantrum and beat up the person they had approached???Hmmm I think the Nazis used that tactic to cower people into voting for them?
As soon as I find the link of the ADL and their comment on the ALF campain i'll publish it.
Now does that answer your questions or are you going to come up with more emotive langauge,insults to a segment of the human race and dumb comparsions?Or are you going to try and answer as a rational human being? TIP if you start to insult your opponent personally you are losing.But leave it untill I have had my dinner ,all this talk about chicken has made me go and get some tasty,factory farmed kentucky fried chicken. Hmmmmnnnn!!!

by Lone Gunman Wed Feb 04, 2004 15:14

For what the Anti defamation Leauge has to say about this.
www.adl.org Press release 14/10/2003
PETA Appeal for Jewish community support
"The Height of Chutzpath"

Holocaust imageary and animal rights Feb 25/02
adl/anti-semitism/holocaust-imagery.asp
ADL denounces PETA for its Holocaust on a plate campain.
Oh,yes do then go to the Animal Nazis masskilling.org and read the crawling apology and justification of these people.
it would make any normal person.

by I love chicken sambos Wed Feb 04, 2004 15:41

To equate the conditions of chicken farms with the murder of millions of Jews, Gypsies, Trade Unionists, Communists, homosexuals and ethnic minorities in Hitlers death camps is disgusting.

A chickens life can not be equated in anyway to the life of human beings.

by dear chickensarnie bloke Fri Apr 02, 2004 20:09 alisonlaw77 at yahoo dot co dot uk 01223308490

your comments and views would be inflamatory if they were not so poorly thought out.
primative societies i.e stoneage man WERE hunter gatherers, the progress towards civilisation was made when crop growing and agriculture started.
Surely progress and true superiority of mind is rising above the food chain not lording it at the top.
Watch out for the Karma police

by Carmel Mon May 03, 2004 22:03 cremecaramel1 at lycos dot co dot uk

I am a human being, I am a mother, I eat meat. I am sickened in coming across this site at what certain people who have farms say, you are quite evil and I hope you go straight to hell for your comments....notably Mr Lone guman or whatever you call yourself. How sad you have no respect for yourself or animals, and care nothing of the animals that are on our planet. You are a VERY sad man.
When I see the brown marks on the chickens legs which they have obtained through suffering do you think that makes me want to eat them NO it does not. This world is a sad enough place without heartless cruel basterds such as yourselves. There are no excuses, no blame can be handed elsewhere it is a free world but not free to our dear animals and creatures. cruel comments sicken me and your anger of those who do not care comes through as a hateful and shallow and sad person who deserves the same that they give. Its not on it really isn't!

by Carmel Mon May 03, 2004 22:21 cremecaramel1 at lycos dot co dot uk

Just come accross this site and wanted to say with all the horrible treatment of animals no wonder there are so many horrible diseases.
The above site was great to...well done Mr meatrix!!

by stewee Fri Nov 19, 2004 16:25 stewee at cluas dot com

I.... chicken sambos says
'When talking about the disgusting practices of battery farmers you exclaim that I 'PAY for such mistreatment'. Maybe I do, but I do not support it.' -
You moron. Look at what you've just written. Of course you support it when you contribute to their profits. You might as well wear their little sticker on your jacket. If you REALLY don't support it why not try and spend your money a bit more ethically. You talk as if you are being made to be a consumer. It is possible to buy from a reliably ethical source. Maybe a bit more expensive, but I bet you have money to spend on booze, fags or DVDs, don't you? I guess it comes down to your priorities...... liar

by meat-eater Fri Nov 19, 2004 17:45

Animals don't have rights. Humans don't have automatic rights either for that matter. What rights we take for granted in the West were won by the struggle of our ancestors. They're not something which were given to us by some inspired nice man in the UN.

Now we aspire to have those rights extended to all people. This too is a good thing.

Animal rights campaigners seek to extend these rights, or at least a subset of them to animals. It's a worthy aspiration to a point. So long as our dependence on animals for sustinence and for medical research isn't threatened I see no problem with this aspiration.

Animals kept for such purposes should be treated as humanely as possible however. Not just for the animals' sakes mut for our own as a society. Good on you for highlighting the conditions in this farm. I hope the ALF stops short of punishing small farmers however - I don't think this theft is going to have a big financial impact on the farmers here though.

Also, a sense of context and purpose must be maintained by animal rights campaigners. Stupidly releasing mink into the wild or threatening the lives of scientists engaged in animal research are two of the less intelligent tactics employed in Britain in the last few years.

I believe in animal research but feel it should be legislated for better [in particular with regard to testing cosmetics]. I beleive in farming animals but again, it must be underlined that the animals are not abused.

by barry Fri Nov 19, 2004 19:50

Aliens, cannibals, Nazis, Auschwitz, a shadowy figure in a balaclava clutching a chicken ?

This sounds like a plot from some low-budget 1950s B movie.

The meat out of a lot of those places probably isnt altogether good for you. Living in the country thankfully I can get access to organically produced food quite often for free.

But when you think about it, a group of grown adults running about after chickens in combat gear, and then posing for photographs ?

I also can guarantee that every fox, dog, mink, cat and child with a pellet gun had a field day.


If theyre going to liberate any turkeys for Xmas
could they please give me a shout. I know quite a few people who would like to adopt one, including myself. They will come to no harm I assure you. (mmm... where did I put that cranberry sauce...)

by pc Sat Nov 20, 2004 00:20

you've been handed over the "comment on absolutly everything" sceptre!!!!! all hail barry

by barry Sat Nov 20, 2004 01:33

Getting a bit catty pc. Sceptre no less.

by barry Sun Nov 21, 2004 21:30

Unfotunately I am unable to accept your kind award just at the minute. There is no room on my mantlepiece due to my " I'll comment on whatever the f*** I like award". Perhaps in the meantime you could look after your "sceptre" for me. How about sticking it up your ignorant arse for safe keeping.

Meanwhile I'll try and not take up too much space on what is obviously your private website.

by django Tue Aug 23, 2005 14:55

Ah...but if you do enjoy meat and its many benefits to health and well-being (as long as excesses are not consumed of course) and you cannot imagine life as a vegetarian.....buy grass fed beef. In fact, grass fed beef is the healthier alternative. Grain fed cattle do not contain the same nutritional value. For the main part they lack selenium.....particularly important for men if they wish to minimise the risks of prostate cancer. AND if you are a vegetarian be sure your food source is of quality, i.e organic or from a farm that pratices crop rotation. Over-farming is responsible for the reduced nutritional value in todays fruit and veg. The land is being exhausted of the essential nutrients necessary for quality produce.

by Damian Thu May 04, 2006 00:52

While highlighting the sad lives of chickens in these high intensity production facilities is commendable, what good is sentencing the birds to almost instant death by setting them free with no protection form predators? They'd have done well to survived a night!