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Joe Higgins Criticised by former Anti Bin Tax Campaigners

category dublin | bin tax / household tax / water tax | news report author Wednesday March 31, 2004 14:19author by Community Voice April 2004 Report this post to the editors

Community Voice Article

A new political party launched recently in Dublin 15 has been set up as a result of its members “being used as cannon fodder” in the recent bin tax campaign according to its spokesperson.

The United Communities Party is standing two candidates in the Mulhuddart Electoral area in the forthcoming local elections. The candidates, Paul Hand from Pinebrook Glen and Gerry Murray from Dromheath addressed a public meeting of approximately 50 people in Huntstown Community Centre to launch the new party.

Anti Bin Tax Campaigners Launch New Political Party

A new political party launched recently in Dublin 15 has been set up as a result of its members “being used as cannon fodder” in the recent bin tax campaign according to its spokesperson.

The United Communities Party is standing two candidates in the Mulhuddart Electoral area in the forthcoming local elections. The candidates, Paul Hand from Pinebrook Glen and Gerry Murray from Dromheath addressed a public meeting of approximately 50 people in Huntstown Community Centre to launch the new party.

The founding members of the party were all members of the local anti-bin tax campaign and were involved with both the Socialist Party and Sinn Fein. However, according to Paul Hand they became “very disillusioned with the Socialist Party during the campaign and when Joe Higgins came out of prison he abandoned the campaign in this area”.

Gerry Murray told the meeting that “the County Council had used parts of Dublin 15 as a dumping ground for people and paedophiles who would not be tolerated in other parts of Dublin”. This point was taken up by another female member of the party who told the meeting that “a man had been put into Dublin 15 who had served 9 years for molesting kids. I asked Joe Higgins where he had been housed and he said that the man had done his time”.

Interestingly though the two candidates were seeking to represent “ the working class people of the area” and they were critical of “the big political parties” the main target of criticism at the meeting was the Socialist Party and its leader Joe Higgins.

According to Paul Hand “when Joe Higgins came out of prison he left Dublin 15 to hang there and moved to other areas. Joe is governed by Socialist Party rules whereas we are local people with local issues”.

Both of the new party’s candidates are former members of Sinn Fein and in spite of the fact that they are standing against that party’s candidate, Martin Christie in the forthcoming elections, both candidates conceded that if they weren’t elected they would like to see their transfers going to Christie.

The main issues listed at the meeting were traffic problems, crime and the lack of facilities for young people. Criticism of the lack of youth activities for the area were rejected by one local youth worker who pointed out that the facilities were available but the problem was a lack of volunteers to run such clubs.

“I have been involved in youth work in Huntstown since 1995” she said “and the community will not take ownership of voluntary work. I have people from outside Huntstown involved in youth work in the area. I accept that the government has a responsibility and the politicians have a responsibility but the community has a responsibility too” she said.

According to Paul Hand “we are not in this for the money. I have a job so if I’m elected I will put any money I get back into the community for playgrounds, community centres and schools”. He said. Further meetings of the new party are planned for other parts of Dublin 15 in the coming weeks.

author by Badmanpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 14:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

After their smear campaign in Tallaght, they are taking on the SP in their own back yard. The shinners sure know how to fight filthy - the paedophile smear is about as low as you can go. Scratch sinn fein and you will find the most reactionary politics possible just beneath the surface.

author by RED BHOYpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 14:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can you elaborate on the Paedophile smear please. I havent heard anything about this!!

author by Hebepublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 14:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Badman if you were following the postings on indy you would be aware of that. The SP have kept up a sustained attack on Sean Crowe and SF in general.

I dont think that Joe Higgins has done anything wrong in this instance, he is right to stand up against those who wish to whip up mob hysteria.

However, there remains the issue of the Westies. This gang terrorises Dublin West. I dont think the SP have any links with the Westies but I find it astounding that the SP will not condemn their activities. Go to the SP Website, do a search and you will find no mention of the Westies.

If the SP have ever condemned this gang then they should point top press releases and articles about it.

author by Johnpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 14:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

God, not another socialist party? How many is that now? There will soon be more socialist parties in Ireland than socialist voters. Still, I find it all quite entertaining. How long before this new one splits? I give it a week.

author by Ratcatcherpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 15:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

A "party" made up of ex-Sinn Fein members decides to stand against the Socialist Party in Mulhuddart. It denounces Joe Higgins, someone who went to jail for a month and who faces enormous legal costs, for "abandoning" the bin tax struggle. But it doesn't mention the fact that SInn Fein did fuck all on the bin tax anywhere in Fingal. It even calls for transfers to Sinn Fein.

It looks around for the most vicious and malicious slurs it can throw (that paedophile thing!)...

I smell a rat here.

author by Pied Piperpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 15:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Especially spuppy rats active here.As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

Is Fingal now a One Party State? Is it only SP candidates that can stand? We all know the SP want to impose a Leninist One Part Dictatorship but it looks as if they are getting ahead of themselves here.

author by observerpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 16:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why would SF stand candidates against itself??

author by Ratcatcherpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 16:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Nobody said anything about anybody not being allowed to stand or do anything else they want to do.

That doesn't mean that people who use this site arent able to draw conclusions from people's behaviour. I don't even particularly like the SP but I'm not stupid.

When a couple of former Sinn Fein members form a new party that will

A\ only operate in a Socialist Party stronghold
B\ call for transfers to Sinn Fein
C\ attack Joe Higgins, who went to jail and got huge costs awarded against him for his stance on the bin tax
D\ not attack Sinn Fein for their total lack of involvement in the bin tax anywhere in Fingal
E\ throw any old crazy slur they can think of against Joe Higgins on other issues

then peope are going to smell a rat. A big stinky rat.

author by SP memberpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 16:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Has a cheek. He came to the Fingal Anti Bin Tax conference in the Airport Hotel and counter posed demonstrations on TDs clinics etc as a method of taking on non collection as opposed to blockades. He and his group are well to the right of the SP.

The meeting in question had less than thirty including SP supporters who challanged the woman to furnish details regarding the paedophile accusations and she was struck dumb.

When a number of people were taken to court on foot of a protest in nearby Blanch' four among them were SP members, three of whom were prepared to do time. All were let off on a technicality.

As the campaign was being pushed back, after a number of weeks of blocades, jailings, ICTU sellouts and rubbish mounting and people including many SP members having to return to work after running out of annual leave having manned the blocades people like Hand and a few other SF fellow travellers began trying to apportion blame, saying to those who didn't have daytime workplaces to go to ie homemakers, unemployed, shiftworkers etc that the SP had given up or didn't try hard enough.

Hand initated a parallel "campaign" behind the backs of SP members (or so he thought). Mary Lou MacDonald sat in on the meetings. This shit started when Joe was still banged up by the way. Fortunatly an SP member was accidentally informed and was there to challange Hand.

Hand has never elaborated as to what more the SP could have done other than belly aching that Ruth Coppinger wasn't around during the day. Ruth teaches in Killinarden in Tallaght and therefore didn't have the same freedom to take annual leave but was around during the mid term break.

Hand etc conveniently forget that Joe, Ruth and the comrades couldn't just base themselves in their electoral strongholds of Mullhuddart and Swords but had to assist in mobilizing for blocades and dissemination leaflet after leaflet through the networks, organise protests on council offices and bin truck depots across the whole of Fingal which if you care to look at a map covers half of Dublin's surface area. Likewise they bore the brunt of the vitalmedia work which necessitated going out to studios in order to try and get the anti bin tax message accross.

SP members worked alongside residents and initated blocades in council estates in Balbriggan, Skerries, Malahide, Kinsealy, Baldoye, Howth, Blanch', Clonsilla, Corduff, Portmarnock and Santry. Three trucks were seized and held by residents for over a week in Santry, Swords and Kinsealy. Hand and Co. have no appreciation of this. For him it translates into SP members not being constantly in Mullhuddart.

No other left political group is organised in Fingal SWP/ISN/WSM/WCA etc and SF who don't have a single councillor in the area, fuck all members in the North County and a rump of an organisation in Dublin 15 sat on their arses bar a handful of members who had enough initiative to ignore the lack of direction from their leadership to go out on the protests. Their calls of transfers to SF gives their game away.

Let them run.

author by Pied Piperpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 16:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The SP live in glass houses and shouldnt be so quick to throw stones. Not everyone turns the other cheek.

The SP did everything they could to exclude SF from the campaign in Fingal. They didnt return (dozens) of messages left on phones etc. In Tallaght the SP used similar tactics. They abused any SF members who got involved in the campaign and then used this site to attack SF.

If the SP actively oppose the reign of terror of the Westies then its being kept a secret. The SP have never issued a leaflet written an article or written a letter to the papers about the war the Westies wage against working class people in Fingal.

Why havent they raised it at Fingal Council level? Why hasnt Joe Higgins used the Dail as a platform to call for action against the Westies?

The silence is deafening.

author by Mulhuddart residentpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 16:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This 'party' is not a genuine group. It is a right wing yellow scab 'organisation' that is willing to whip up a mob mentality by using child abuse and racism to attack Joe Higgins.

The people in this group have no record whatsoever on bin tax, where were they when trucks were being blockaded? Where were they when cops were beating working class residents off the street? Where they up in the courts? NO! of course they were not.

PS
Look at their funding, i wouldn't be surprised if you see donations from the PDs as well as the local gangs

author by Rivervalley rebelpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 16:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So that explains SF's absence from bin tax meetings in Fingal and South Dublin. It explains their non participation in leafleting, postering and participating in blocades. If the SP had a more inclusive approach the Shinners would have stood shoulder to shoulder.

It's a load of bollocks. I live in Swords where we held a truck for a week with a 24 hour vigal. Sinn Fein actually have a hand full of members in Swords but one showed up once on the fourth day. They never came to any meetings which were widely advertised or volunteered to help out on the protests at the bin truck depot in Watery Lane.

What they did do was turn up a the council building one day for a protest with Mary Lou where they brought a photographer with them. Pathetic.

The electoral support and activism of the SP is a contributory to SF's relative lack of a profile in Fingal compard to the rest of Dublin. Don't be fooled by any impression given that the SP in Fingal are constantly plotting to keep SF at bay, they just get on with their campaigns regardless. SF haven't helped themselves either in Fingal or South Dublin for that matter where they do have an organisational and electoral lead on the SP.

author by Fingalianpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I agree with 'River valley rebel' The fact is that the SP have not excluded anyone that wanted to get active in the bin tax campaign. In all four council areas the SP have worked side by side with activists from ISN, SWP, WCA, WSM, WP, ordinary residents and a handful of SFers. The fact is that Sf were not active in the bin tax struggle, apart from a few exceptions in finglas. I was on the blockade in Rivervalley, SF were simply not there apart from a few hours when their candidate, John Cmapbell, turned up to get his photo taken with a yellow 'No bin Tax' baseball cap (look out for it in the election leaflets!).

The same goes for every other area. In South Dublin SF were not on the ground when non collection came and were not there when 7 locals were jailed. In fact when local residents were being jailed the Sf councillor in Tallaght, Mark Daly, was busy writing a letter into the Tallaght Echo telling people to pay and that it was just like 'any other bill'.

author by SFwatchpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

People forget that it is SF that supports terrorism. It is SF that refused to condemn terrorists that targetted and killed civilians. They did things like the attacks on Madrid, remember Warrington, Enniskillen, Omagh, Canary Wharf.... This is what Sf stand for, they are a violent sectarian party. If the truth be known it is Republican elements that are behind the Westies.

author by Criticpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why did SF councillors in Sligo vote in Bin Tax?

Why did SF councillor Mark Daly write a letter into the local paper urging people to pay the bin tax?

Why while in government in the North SF ministers put term time workers out on strike, Privatise schools and shut down essential services in Omagh hospital?

Why has SF been in the pockets of big business in the US? Why has Gerry Adams gone over the the WEF to court big business into the North?

SF are a right wing party, but they are not stupid they know there is a huge vacuum on the left so that's why they put on a left face so as to win votes.

author by piss takepublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i read the original positing and thought it was a joke.

ever think of that? just a troll

author by SP voter - Not a memberpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

All the attempts to link Joe with the Westies and child molesters is despicable. Really lumpen crap! (I know its a horrible term but if somebody can come up with a better one, please do).
That said the SP did in some peoples minds abandon the campaign and I am not talking about activists minds here I'm talking about your average Joe (no not Higgins - nothing average about him). I'm talking about the residents, those people who will be voting in June. One Fingal Vice after the campaign was defeated does not keep the campaign going in peoples minds.
Its a pity Joe and Clare are lumbered with the strategists that they have - then they might not have to put up with shit like this.
And for the record piss take, this is sadly no piss take!

author by observerpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Touchy bunch of chaps the SP!! I don't know. You fly off the handle - in the wrong direction naturally - just because a couple of people decide to run in the local elections!

Deep breaths now.

Once again, this has nothing to do with SF, and a lot more to do with the feeling on the ground in areas where people feel let down over the failed revolution on the bin charges. That's what happens when you are elected to positions of repsonsibility you know. The people will have their say.

author by Mulhuddart residentpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The people of fingal were not let down by the SP they were let down by the traitors in the leadership of ICTU and SIPTU.

The SP always said that victory against non collection would be very hard to achieve and that the Trade Unions would probably play the role that they did. The SP never lied to the people.

author by observerpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

They are not elected representatives of the people who are wondering how they are going to manage to pay big bills that they were told they shouldnt pay, and would never have to pay. Responsibility comes with leadership.

author by Mulhuddart residentpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 17:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The SP always made it clear that defeating the bin tax was going to much more difficult that defeating the water tax was. But still argued for non collection as this was the only way that it would be put on the agenda and ultimately be defeated.

SIPTU and ICTU are meant to be organisations of the working class. They are meant to have anti bin tax policies. they are meant to represent the interests of the working class. If they choose to even lift their finger against non collection they would have defeated it. It was the Trade union bureaucracy that sold out and betrayed the working class not the SP.

author by observerpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 18:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If you take a position you have to be prepared to defend it and take the consequences. The question is; is it not true that there are many people, not only in Fingal but throughout Dublin, who are extremely worried now because they beleive the issue has been lost and that they are now going to have to pay a large bill they thought they would not have to.

PS. I am among those who has not paid and who is also less than happy at the prospect but I don't blame the campaign. Some people will, however, and it is some of that frustration that is being reflected maybe in the Mulhuddart candidates, and not some obscure and pointless plot by Sinn Féin who have their own candidate who I am sure is just as displeased at having extra rivals in the field. After all, they're not going to take votes from FG or FF.

author by Phuq Heddpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 20:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Specifically will they condemn the attempt to whip up mob frenzy against paedophiles? Seems like these two people are pretty disgusting people and Sinn Fein should issue an official statement deploring this.

author by Suspiciouspublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 20:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I don't think it is likely that SF is involved in this new group. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was some other political or state involvement here. There is no doubt that this parochialism and racism will be a feature in the local elections. It will also be interesting to see the impact it will have. It will also be interesting to see how many votes these two individuals will get ! Probably very few!

author by observerpublication date Wed Mar 31, 2004 22:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Should SF condemn this "disgusting" group (SP should really invest in a Thesaurus!). They have as much a right to contest as anyone else. SF has had to endure this sort of stuff for years and the SP was never shy y about joining reactionary elements in attacking republicans. Not to mention state harassment, loyalsit and state murder gangs, and attacks by criminal elements. Sure it'll toughen the comrades up if nothing else.

author by Rivervalley Rebelpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1) People in Fingal were not left with "massive bills" after the campaign was driven back by not collection and oppression because of the tag system. It was actually the initiative of the Fingal Anti Bin Tax that secured a High Court ruling that enabled non payers to get away with non payment AND arrears because the council had no effective means of tracing the levels of non payment.

2) The campaign never guarunteed outright victory but put forward a strategy that offered the best chance. That strategy was mass organised non payment, a legal fund, a network of leafleters that could quickly disseminate info regarding developments, regular meetings. This proved hugely successful in Fingal which, of the four campaigns in Dublin had the widest coverage that extended throughout the local authority bar the really posh bits.

3) SP members took the initiative from day one throughout Fingal. Whereever there were gaps in the leaflet network SP members from the likes of Mulhuddart etc stepped into the breach.

4) It was clear to us tfrom the time of the High Court decision in March 2002 hat the law was going to be changed and that there were clear challanges posed in Fingal which through leaflets and further rounds of meetings we did our best to prepare people for.

5) Those challanges included:

a) The absence of arrears potentially making it easier for people to acquiese for the sake of a €3 or €5 tag.

b) The demographics of much of Fingal and particularly the North County, ie young areas, dormitory towns, with generally high levels of employment with people leaving for work early and coming home late meant that many non payers wouldn't be around to protest when non collection took place. Mulhuddart is one of the few areas of Fingal that doesn't fit into this broad generalisation.

c) The organised disposal of non collected rubbish.

d) The workers were demoralised having suffered a defeat in April 2003 where they were sold a rotton deal by the council involving speed ups and lay offs and a lengthening of their working day. SIPTU abondoned them and half swallowed the line from management that the success of the campaign would jepordise their jobs.

6) The battle never took place in Mulhuddart in the way in did in other areas. The counicl effectively abandoned the area for four weeks and let the rubbish build up. They focused on more compliant areas in the early days. Day one saw two truck blocaded in Portmarnock, and one in Malahide. Forays into Baldoyle and Corduff which resulted in sizable protests led the council to steer clear.

7) It was precisely the fact that there was more of an abundance of available activists in Mulhuddart and that active non collection was being tried elsewhere that you had SP members, being deployed accordingly. Look again at where the trucks were captured and held onto: Rivervally, Santry and Kinsealy. Small wonder the council steered clear of Mullhuddart and told "compliant " residents to bring their waste to a depot in Coolmine.

8) Go back and look at indymedia's reports of this time and see the level of effort put in. However effort didn't prove enough. We needed an escalation in the form of larger protests in the areas and industrial action to bring it to a head. It didn't happen. Those residents who couldn't actively participate began to pay or make their own arrangements to dispose. The increased tagging had a snowballing effect as each week went by.

9) At a certain stage what we were left with was protests at the depots and residents in an organised fashion throwing rubbish into the trucks. This took place in the hard core areas but petered out in most of them after three months or so.

10) Balance sheet.
a) 95% of bins put out are tagged however only half the bins are put out now than previous to non collection. Many people make their own arrangements, throwing the rubbish in themselves, bringing it to work, bring it to friends and relatives in areas where collection is still taking place, putting the bin out less frequently but stuffing it to overflowing, illegal dumping etc etc.

b) Fingal was forced into so many denials on the airwaves about the agenda behind the bin tax that they were the only council not to raise it. Likewise privitization has been kicked into touch for now.

Conclusion
11) Mulhuddart wasn't the only area to hold out for months with organised throwing of bags into truck. It was also done in Santry, Swords, Balbriggan, Kinsealy and Baldoyle. There is no evidence of recriminations against the SP there. Why??

12) The answer is the role of SF who were totally absent in the other areas. In Dublin 15 SF can make no great claim about their role in the bin tax.

"Oh if only they could find some angle for underming the SP in Mulludart!"

"If only there were SF sympathisers/members/fellow travelers out there who were visable around the issue we could get them to run on a campaign of question the SP's effort and then call on people to transfer to SF".

Enter Paul Hand & Co.

13. Nobody can dispute their right to run. But like everbody else their programme, record and motives deserve to be examined. Whipping up a hysteria about paedophiles and refugees and SP not taking on the Westies is not a good indication of their politics.

14. Like any campaign which doesn't result in total victory like the water charges you are bound to have recriminations and blame. Just look at the anti war movement. What is remarkable about the bin tax in Fingal is that this initiative in Mullhudart is the sum total of recriminations in this case.

15. Lessons for Dublin City and Dunlaoghaire.
Look again at the complicating factors in Fingal. Some like arrears demographics, employment are different. The one disadvantage which can still be remedied is the level of organisation and coverage of the campaign. Good votes for anti bin tax campaigns will give everybody a lift, but pressure on the unions remains key.

author by Anti War Bin Activistpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 13:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

but there is no need to distort by attempting to join something unrelated. As in:

"14. Like any campaign which doesn't result in total victory like the water charges you are bound to have recriminations and blame. Just look at the anti war movement. What is remarkable about the bin tax in Fingal is that this initiative in Mullhudart is the sum total of recriminations in this case."

The anti-war movement is in disarray not because it didn't achieve a total victory but because of the undemocratic practices of a small group of people who believe the IAWM belongs to them.
The coming together of an alternative structure shows that those involved are not involved in blame and recrimination over a defeat.
Unless of course you believe that those who left the IAWM are in some way similar to this bunch of nutters and it in some way justifies you staying with the IAWM.

author by Are you right there, Michael? - Highfields Manpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 13:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Very good article from your perspective. But perhaps for the purposes of learning for the next time you should broaden your thinking beyond the narrow boundaries of your politics. For example, did Fingal and the other Councils have a strategy? If so, what was it and can it's success be measured. As an interested bystander, I thought Fingal played a blinder, won the media campaign and backed the protests into areas which would cause the least political damage and create the most internal pressure on the Campaign.

PS Michael, I hope you are contributing on your own time - good luck next June.

author by Finglas Manpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 15:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

One of the benefits of this thread is that we get a better insight into the campaign in Fingal which was effectively an SP led from start to finish.

I don't agree with the last posting re the media war. I thought that when given the chance to speak Joe, Ruth, Clare, Brid etc aquitted themselves well. You are never going to getting a fair airing in a struggle which is why you need you leaflet networks and regular meetings to get the info out.

Fingal Co Co suffered the worst hiding in the anti water charges campaign and obviously aborbed the lessons. The introduction of tagging as opposed to flat bills, taking on the bin workers etc etc. It's a wonder why South Dublin didn't have tagging from day one. I gather the council in Fingal also switched around crews and bin collection days to wrong foot the campaign.

Given all that and the fact they had the Guards, Courts and Jails at their disposal I think the Fingal Anti Bin Tax Campaigner and Joe Higgins and the SP comrades have done themselves proud.

The various councils' strategy featured a lot in the Dublin City campaign ie the salami tactic. I'd said they will wait until after the local elections to move on the pay by weight initiative and non collection in Dublin City and DL/Rathdown so I agree with RR and the key thing is to extend the base of the Dublin City campaigns.

author by Highfields Man - Swordspublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 15:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Good on you Finglas Man - some thought applied rather than "political" analysis. I'll concede a bit on the media battle and you are probably right about Fingal starting the preparations a couple of years ago rather than last September.

Interesting, Fingal did not use the salami tactic - they were first out of the traps with non-collection in all areas. Nor did they seem to use the Courts as much as is perceived. They took the first action against Joe etc but the second lot was effectively taken by the Guards. Despite several blocakades a day and regular depot blockades, they avoided the Courts and seemed to opt for the long game.

author by will mc carthy - sinn feinpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 15:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

the socialist party is informing us that they are not using the bin tax issue as a stick to beat sinn fein with in fingal yet they come on this web site and attack sinn fein over their alleged lack of involvement in the bin tax campaign. sinn fein members were prominent in the bin the tax campaign all across this city and not concentrated in one or two pockets of resistance, secondly sinn fein members did go to jail because of the bin tax campaign, sinn fein councillors consistently voted against the tax and protested outside city hall and sinn fein members and elected representatives were constantly outside the courts supporting those on trial most notably dessie ellis, are the sp going to accuse him of being afraid to face the consequences. the sp is also ignoring the fact that they imported members, most of the students from the affluent suburbs of south dublin to run their campaign in fingal.

author by SP memberpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 16:06author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I thought RR analysis was pretty comprehensive and is complemented by other contributions except for those from SF supporters who have fuck all of interest to say on the matter.

On the courts Fingal got an injunction out against named protesters whose names were taken by the guards including Clare and Joe.

The way the injunction originally worked was that the guards couldn't arrest you for blocading but would take names and then the council would select whose names it would add to the injunction and serve notice on others for breaches.

Clare and Joe were refused to give an undertaking and got a month. The judge who sent Clare and Joe down also said that procedures could be speeded up with the Guards being empowered to arrest people without reference to the council.

Following that 11 were brought up for breach from D15 all but one for breach of the injunction and one SP member on public order offences. Despite a refusal by a number of them to adhere to the injunction the judge overruled the last judge and said that the council had discretion over who it wanted to pursue.

In a way that suited the council who sought to focus in on SPers especially those from outside Fingal in order to paint a false picture of the protests having no local support.

At a certain stage a more muscular approach was adopted if favour of the courts where the guards would physically carry and shove people off when the numbers permitted.

From the point of view of the councils the courts are not much use for combatting non payment but rather for cutting accross protests. In South Dublin the terms of the injunction extend to agitation on leaflets for protests.

All this taken together with the ban on postering should be of concern to all activists. Political pressure and organised mass defience is the way to go.

author by Will McCarthy Watcherpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 18:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Will, the fact is that Sinn Fein are not smelling of roses on the bin tax. Even if we overlook supporting it in Sligo we have to say that they did very little in the campaign. I am very active in the campaign. In all my time involved SF (other than Dessie Ellis) have done nothing.

Even Desie was very conservative when it came to jailings and blockades. Dessie did not support blockades and lagged behind the movement. And Dessie is the best SFer on this issue!

In my local area one SF member was listed on an injunction along with many others (mainly local residents not in any party). The guy was really rattled by the High Court injunction. He was pathetic, he was really worried that he was only named, ordinary residents took it like water off a duck's back as they had guts and were actually involved and committeed. Rasher was not.

Will, you accuse the SP of 'importing' posh students from the southside to fingal. This is madness- there are not many posh SP students! The fact is the blockades in Fingal were run by local residents not posh students. The UCD student that was jailed was in his local area and is not from an affluent area.

author by Truthpublication date Thu Apr 01, 2004 21:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"sinn fein members were prominent in the bin the tax campaign all across this city and not concentrated in one or two pockets of resistance, "

That's not true. Will you were not active at all in the bin tax struggle. I was active in various areas throughout the campaign and I can tell you apart from the odd person here and there SF were only active in the Finglas area. .

"secondly sinn fein members did go to jail because of the bin tax campaign,"

One person to my knowledge went to prison from SF. She was from Finglas and went to jail despite SF leadership advising her to apologise in front of the court. In DLR, the SF candidate for Glencullen bottled it and apologised to the judge. The fact is that none of the SF cllrs or TDs were prepared to join the blockades or protests as none of them were prepared to go to prison.

" sinn fein councillors consistently voted against the tax"

Not true. In Sligo SF councillors voted for the bin tax (which now stands at €520 in that town) in return for the mayor's position. SF councillor in Tallaght Central, MArk Daly also wrote into theTallaght Echo urging people to pay the tax as he claimed it 'was just like any other bill'


"and protested outside city hall"

That's all you ever did during the campaign. Where were SF when the campaign needed people to go around the 1,000s of housholds, collect membership, explain the issues and discuss tactics? Of course this means hours and hours of painstaking work, SF are quite content to let others do that and then simply jump in for photo op-demos to make it look like SF are doing the work.

"and sinn fein members and elected representatives were constantly outside the courts supporting those on trial most notably dessie ellis, are the sp going to accuse him of being afraid to face the consequences. "

Yes they were afraid of facing the consequences. SF candidate in DLR Joe Comerford wouldn't face the consequences, he apologised while 10 other residents refused to do so. Joe Comerford is not an aberation, SF leadership were telling any member of their that got onto injunctions to apologise.

"the sp is also ignoring the fact that they imported members, most of the students from the affluent suburbs of south dublin to run their campaign in fingal."

Bullshit. Despite some beliefs the numbers of students in the SP is actually very small and those that are students apart from one or two all are from working class backgrounds. The campaign in Fingal was run local campaign members and local SP members. This is a fact, if you were there you would know this. Will you were not in Fingal either was any of SF in UCD, nor were you of the rest of SF active in any real way in the bin tax struggle.

author by Republicanpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"the SF candidate for Glencullen bottled it and apologised to the judge. "

I bet 'truth' signed a waiver, hadn't even got the balls to stand up in court.

author by Shinner.publication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The bin charge protest did not fail as a result of the lack of support by Sinn Fein. They failed because the majority of people actually saw the campaign as nothing but pure opportunism on the part of the socialist party; they remember MIJAG just before the last election. As somebody who has been out on the ground canvassing for the last month in Tallaght I can see a turn away form Mick Murphy, people are actually very annoyed with him and his party, they are pissed off that he has now moved onto water charges having failed to muster support for the bins protest. They are pissed off that he has not been seen in Killnamangh while the issue of St Killans school has been worrying local parents, in fact he has not been present at any local meetings which involve issues worrying the community in Tallaght Central.

We must remember that when he tried this opportunistic electioneering just before the last general election his vote dropped from 2,026 (1997) to just over 954 (2002). A large number of his votes were in Greenhills, which is not in his constituency this time around. He will not get elected, that is becoming very clear. Any momentum from the campaign has gone. I think the saddest day for the protest, and the point when we knew that it had failed was when about fifteen people lay on the ground of SDCC to protest and the good people of Tallaght walked over them to get to the window to pay the charge. This charge is unfair and should be defeated, but we all know that this could not happen, and will not happen, using the tactics of the SP et al. They were involved in the most disingenuous type of electioneering, they knew that they where leading the people up a blind alley and they were happy to do so if they thought it would get them votes. This was shameful behavior. However, at least in Tallaght, the people seem to have seen through it. When we are asked on the door what we did about the charges in our areas we tell the truth, we don’t let on that we were at the forefront of this failed project, we tell the voters why in most instances we did not take part. We are more than happy to explain our position to the residents of Tallaght.

In this election Sinn Fein will do well. We will because we are not an issue every election party. We are involved on the ground in our neighborhoods. We are involved in all areas of constituency work getting through dozens of cases each week, and dealing effectively with them. We have taken part in clean up’s in our communities, removing syringes from the area. We work with local drug rehabilitation centers. We facilitate mediation sessions for neighbors involved in disputes. We have stood with the new citizens in our communities against racist attacks, we are offering support to the new citizens who are standing for the local elections against us because we believe it is right that their voice is heard. We have stood up to the DRUG BARRONS rather than attend their funerals. This is what gets Sinn Fein elected; forget about single-issue campaigns, getting elected in communities is about long-term hard work. SINN FEIN – 20 Years working for the local people of Tallaght.

author by observerpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Not to mention socialising with them.

author by SP memberpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

That SF are running a smear campaign against the SP in Tallaght as well by making insinuations connecting the SP with unnamed "drug barrons" by which they probably mean addicts which they have a contempt for. In previous postings they have also made insinuations about financial inpropriety on Mick's part.

I find the remarks about MIJAG laughable when I recall Sean Crowe taking credit for the initiative in his literature.

They pose the bin charges as essentially a non issue made into an issue by the SP for electoral ends. If that is their attitude it explains why they not only didn't contribute to building the campaign anywhere bar Finglas but also the lack of consistency on the issue in the council chambers as has been already refered to. One might add that the SP correctly predicted that not all SFers in Dublin City Council would vote against the charge when the vote was on a knife edge with Labour splitting etc etc. Two out of the five SFers absented themselves from that vote.

By the way this is not only an issue in Tallaght. How about Cabra which is a far smaller community with a vibrant campaign led by Ciaran Perry. Is he leading the people up there up the garden path? Maybe Nicky Keogh should tell them befoe non collection starts.

If it wasn't such a big issue how do SF explain the almost instinctual decision not to pay by many residents?

Without SF will do well in the local elections. The SP is well prepared for that. What has been demonstrated to us on the bin tax issue is that when stuggles take place that have the active involvement of people in the communities the absence of SF is commented upon.

When these people then get leaflets from SF showing stage managed photos of "protests" outside City and County halls and false claims of SF being at the helm when they havent organised one leaflet drop, public meeting or blockade on the issue they will see them for the phoneys that they are.

The reason why they haven't been able to make a coherent contribution on this thread about the strategy or tactics on the campaign is because they haven't given it any thought. If anything the bin tax has been irksome for them because it has put them to the test as organisers and fighters in the community and they have been found sadly wanting.

As in the north the more electoral success they score the more they will marginalize the "old Sinn Fein" element with whom SPers actually had fraternal relations with despite differneces and embrace more of the middle class Mary Lou types. All part of broadening their appeal.

author by Shinnerpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 13:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Actually most residents have paid, which was unfortunate. They did however because they knew that the protests in the present incarnation could not overthrow the TAX. They were disgusted when Mick Murphy and others turned up at their door looking for money from the ordinary residents to pay their legal costs. They were intelligent to know that the County Manager would disband the council if the estimates were voted down.
In this election campaign in Tallaght I don’t believe I have heard one of our activists mention the socialist party. They are completely focused on achieving our goals. It is interesting to note that while the SP's vote has dropped significantly in the last 7 years, see my previous post, the Sinn Fein vote has doubled 3725 (1997) to 7466 (2002). Anyone wondering why this is should look at the work we have been putting in on the ground in Tallaght. People such as Mr. Murphy who is not resident in Tallaght turn up once every couple of years in the constituency with a brand new campaign and expect to get votes, the people of Tallaght have had no problem seeing through him.
When I canvass for Sinn Fein I tell people I believe the Bin Tax Campaign was a failure. I tell them it was a waste of time and effort. I don’t attempt to take credit for it. I do all I can to distance the party from it. I explain what we will do if elected to attempt to overturn this unjust double taxation. Its not a case of Sinn Fein trying to jump on the bandwagon, we want to be as far away from it as possible. If Mr. Murphy is telling voters in Tallaght that we were not involved with the protests all I can say is "Happy Days".

author by observerpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 13:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The only way that the SP could have "predicted" that SF members would not be present at one of the votes is if they had extra sensory preception because both absences were unavoidable. Besides, one of those absent was Dessie Ellis who you claim is the only SF Councillor actively involved in the campaign so it hardly makes sense that he would have been part of some corrupt arrangement to have the charges passed, which they would have been regardless of whether he was there or not.

And the references to drug dealers has nothing to do with addicts, as two of your candidates well know.

author by Baffledpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 13:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The SF people intervening on this sight are all over the place.

First we have Bill overstating SF's role then we have "Shinner" distancing SF from the campaign and using the arguement of some FFers and Labour types who said they were against the tax but were afraid of the council being abolished which is a carte blanche for future attacks and yet there is some hint that SF offer an electoral solution to the bin tax.

Now the fact that Mick M doesn't live in Tallaght is indisputable. I gather he lives with his wife in Whitechurch. Guilty as charged!!

What would Dessie have to say about Shinner's posting, the conclusion of which is that there was no point in struggling on this issue, that defeat was pre-determined and because the campaign has been pushed back SF in Tallghat have gone from making false claims to slandering the campaign and the efforts of activists on the doorsteps?

If this is the SF position on the bin tax then it is right to keep them at arms length in DL Rathdown and Dublon City where the battle remains to be fought. They have no contribution to make towards the preparations for battle if they feel the defeat is inevitable.

Even if it's the likely outcome of this struggle we need to encourage people to adopt a fighting response in general to the issues that effect them. There is nothing more demoralizing than to go down without a fight.

As for collecting on the door, it sounds like a far more honest approach then getting money from right wingers from the US or extortion.

author by feds.publication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 13:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"That SF are running a smear campaign against the SP in Tallaght as well by making insinuations connecting the SP with unnamed "drug barons" by which they probably mean addicts which they have a contempt for.”

On Tuesday Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams visited two drug treatment centers, one in Kilanarden and the Swan Project in Springfield. We were invited to the later by the sister of Sean Crowe TD who works there as a volunteer helping addicts and their families. Our position on drugs is unequivocal. What is the position of Joe on the Westies, lets hear the condemnation. Mary Lou was threatened for standing up to them. If the so-called "Middle Class" is prepared to put themselves in danger to do it why the hell do you remain silent? Visit one of these treatment centers; see the quilts on the walls representing our dead youth lost to the hands of the Westies and others. See the pain in these families burying their kids who have died from heroin. To remain silent on the Westies issue is to be complicate in the deaths and destruction of a generation of young people. Shame on you and shame on your party for the willful neglect you have shown on this issue.

author by qbc.publication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 13:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Bin tax is a non-issue. People are more concerned about crime, housing, schools, healthcare, childcare, primary through to third level education. I agree with the previous posts. I think the SP will be blamed for the failure of the protests while others can say why they did not take part. Many sp'ers were hoping for mass non-payment and large numbers out on the streets. Well at least we tried will not play well on the doorsteps, they will be asked where it goes to from here, the answer clearly is nowhere. In south county Dublin neither happened. The SP will loose ground because of this, on the other hand there is no reason to believe that the growth in Sinn Fein in these communities has come to an end.

author by SP memberpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 13:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

SF incapacity to debate strategy and tactics of the bin charges campaign with the SP has led you to drag in paedophilia, accusaitions of financial corruption and tolerence of drug barrons by the hair without a shred of proof.

Your shrill invoking the names of the poor victims of heroin is a diversion from the issue being discussed here.

If we weren't confident of our role in this struggle compared to youse we would be dragging in the knee cappings, punishment beatings, extortion, money from Coca Cola, money from right wing Irish Americans etc etc etc

author by Cathy O'Neillpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 13:57author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The really funny thing about this thread is that it would make you think that Sinn Fein are in some way concerned about the SP. The fact is we couldn’t give a fuck what you are up to. We have our own election campaign to run, and may I say we are doing quite a fine job of it. I don’t give a flying fuck what Mick Murphy is doing. The issues I talk about on the doors are poverty, children in pre-fabs because there is no schools, 50,000 people on local authority housing. Do you think that people in areas such as Tallaght give a fuck about coke or whatever rubbish SP member was on about, they care about feeding their families. Idiots like SP member should live on social welfare for a few years, trying raise kids on it like I have had to, have your crèche payment cut from VTOS, and then you will know what really concerns poor people. Now fuck off and have another cappuccino you sad fucking sham.

author by SP memberpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 14:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You are all very defensive all of a sudden. Bear in mind the thread was kicked off by a SF backed initiative that seeks to question the role of the SP in the bin tax, basically insinuating that we didn't try hard enough.

Then according as the discussion developed and SF's real lack of a role was brought out you become all defensive, drop your false claims and then bring in other more important issues and saying now that we tried too hard on the bin tax.

You actually echo the County Coucils and right wing parties when you try to diminish the bin tax issue.
All the other issues raised are more important than the bin tax so why campaign on that issue. The answer is simple, people through mass non payment etc indicated a willingness to fight on the issue as they did on the water charges. A victory or even a hard fought campaign on bin tax or some other small local issue can serve to give a community a boost and actually then raise their sights about taking on the bigger issue. It can give them confidence in dealing with their employers or the crap union officials. Success can breed success in the class struggle and given what working class people have gone through in this epoque of social partnership you have to take up whatever issues that can get people active on their own part.

Your false claims that you somehow have a monopoly of life experience on Social Welfare is plain wrong and irrelevent, the SP is overwhelmingly working class in its composition and any claim to the contrary makes you look plain stupid.

author by SharCodpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 14:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Question - Besides the failed Bin Tax protests what other community work can Mick Murphy and the SP say the have been involved in and achieved for Tallaght. Answers on the head of a needle please.

author by SP memberpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 14:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Speaking as a working class person I find your bit about people in Tallaght not giving a fuck about Coca Cola deeply insulting and actually indicates that you see a limit in the political horizens of ordinary Joes and Josephines. There might not be a lot of awareness out there about Coke's anti union activities etc but if explained to people I'm sure it would elicit interest and sympathy.

author by Tallaght Residentpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 14:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The complete bollox up there from SP shows the irrelevance that the sp have in working class communities. People want a person they can ring because their window was broken and the council wont fix it. Their son is on drugs and can’t get on a program. Their daughter was assaulted and the cop's didn’t turn up. These are the issues that should concern people. This is what SF do in Tallaght day in- day out. Fighting for people. We don’t lie to people in some misguided belief that it will provoke revolution, or probably more realistically to get votes. We work on the bigger issues, we know that bin tax is unfair, but we know that the current SP led protests wont overturn them. We tell the truth, we don’t lie! You and your party have lied to the people. Since you started your protests so many people have been queuing at the window to pay in county hall that they had to employ more staff and open two additional windows. I am not happy that this happened, but it was an inevitability given the ineffective campaigning method, i.e. the local county councilors did not have the power to overturn it. Also I know, as somebody against the Tax that the biggest impediment to overturning it is that it is actually very popular with a lot of the people. I hope Sinn Fein gets two councilors elected in Tallaght central and I believe they will. Sean Crowe has a great record of community work, which is in great contrast to the work of Mick Murphy. Every local event or community meeting usually has atleast one Sinn Fein Rep present. I.e. St Killians public meeting the other night.

author by Cathy O'Neillpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 14:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You cant eat good intentions. get involved in real work that makes a diffrence.

author by FEDSpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 15:15author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Get of your fucking pulpit. " If you believe that condemning the scum which has destroyed communities, which have taken the lives of a couple of my friends, that led my own brother to take his life as preaching then it says a lot about you and your party. When I talk about the quilts on the walls representing a life lost to these bastards and you dismiss it in this way your parties failure to condemn the westies becomes all the easier to understand. You don’t give a damn about standing up for communities and getting rid of this scum, you would rather stand about at funerals laughing with these bastards than trying to eject them from our communities. Your TD has stood by and watched the destruction of Dublin 15. Your arrogance, and indeed your obvious stupidity and that of your party is one of the things which keeps us going in our fight to remove the scourge of the westies and the SP from Mulhudart. You and your likes only motivate us!

author by i mac dpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 15:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

did he get caught within 24 hours blatently flaunting the law?
Drug Addicts, didn't you know, tobacco is more addictive than Heroin?
Your prisons are filled with the victims of drug mal-use and associated problems.
Now who's in the pulpit?

author by Baffledpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 15:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"the scourge of the westies and the SP from Mulhudart."

Does that mean that SP members are going to be knee capped by provos?

author by fedspublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 15:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

cope on you idiot!

author by Killinarden residentpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 15:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"People want a person they can ring because their window was broken and the council wont fix it. "

This is work that is done by all parties including the SP but is this all SF are now limiting themselves to? The tone of your comment seems to be indicating this. what then is the difference between a SF councillor and a councillor from FF, FG, PD, Labour....??

I also find it very patronising and extremely insulting that SF think that this is the extent of the involvment and depth to which working class people understand politics.

The fact is that SF is not a real working class party, it is a nationalist lower middle class right wing party. Their ideology reflects this as does their record.

Lets just forge about all the rhetoric for a second, that's very easy to spout out. The real test is when your members take positions and have some electoral success.

In the North, McGuiness attacked the working conditions of school term time workers. This saw McGuiness frocing the workers off the pay roll for the summer months. This resulted in a strike in which McGuiness intragently continued to stand over his attacks.

McGuiness also initiated the building of schools under a PPP/PFI plan.

DeBruin, backed the Hayes report which saw the closure of essential services in Omagh hospital. This plan is also backed by Gildernew, the MP for Fermanagh-South Tyrone.

In Sligo the SF group on the Borough Council backed the introduction of Bin Tax in return for getting a deal with FF where SF would get a mayor for a year.

In Dublin South Co Co, the SF Councillor for Tallaght Central wrote a letter into the local paper calling on people to pay their bin charges as he claimed 'it was just like any other charge'.

In the trade unions SF members are nearly all at one with the bureacracy. In 'An Phoblacht' for example there were articles in favour of social partnership at the time of the last deal. Ann Speed, (A SIPTU official and leading SFer) was at one with the Coke company in campaigning against referenda in the colleges that pledged solidarity with harrassed trade unionists in Colombia.

There is also the fact that Gerry Adams regularly meets with big business in the states and invites them to invest in Ireland. For example Gerry Adams even recently attended the World Economic Forum.

If you look at the reports of the public offices commission you will see that SF is one of the richest parties in the state. Where is this from? Is it the workers movement? Is it from donations from mordinary people? Is it from donations from their membership? The answer is NO. The vast bulk of SF money comes from big business in particular those in right wing Irish america.

author by petrolpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 16:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

kilanarden resident. You will be very much aware that in the Killinarden boxes (covers all of west Tallaght on the far side of the Bypass) at the general election the Sp got about 60 votes. Sixty votes in one of the largest working class areas of Ireland. Its because the party has no record of work for ordinary people. The people who you would purport to represent don’t vote for you. I am going to stop posting here because your party is an irrelevance and anything that these micro groups say doesn’t matter to ordinary working class people. Mary Daly will probably top the poll in Tallaght Central. This will be a result of 5 years damn hard work and nothing to do with the Bin Tax. What has grand old duke of white church Mick Murphy done, answer FUCK ALL (what does he know about the community, he doesn’t even live there)? This is the message Sinn Fein activists should bring to the doorstep. They should ask also when he went begging with buckets in Jobstown what has been done with the money. Is it for bins protests or will it be used in Tallaght and other areas to fund the political activities of the Socialist Party?

author by Confident as hell!publication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 17:08author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The SP dont bother us. We dont really care what they are doing. We will do our own thing and see who does best. I am glad they are in their bedrooms doing this kind of shite while we are out working.
As for the comment that we have done no Leaflet drops on the issue. well we have a twelve page paper being deliverd to every door in the next few days laying out our position. That should clarify things to our residents. Nearly two thirds of the way through our first canvass it would appear our vote is growing. well done to the hundred students who turned up in tallaght to hear Mary Lou last tuesday.
If you ask me I would say that things cant get any better.

author by Martin Cunningham fanpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 17:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

'That should clarify things to our residents.'

Your not in West Belfast now. They are not your residents.
How about that O'Neill chap that worked for Sean Crowe? Kneecapped - why? Even the army is saying don't vote for SF.
Sad sell out bastards. 30 years of struggle for what? New house, new car, new suit and the dumping the soldiers. You are right the SP are an irrelevance but then so are New Sinn Fein to the working class of Ireland.

author by observerpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 18:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Wish you realised how ironic it was to describe yourself as such and then call SF "sell out bastards". Moron. Go off and read the Star on Sunday you sad bastard.

author by observerpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 18:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Wish you realised how ironic it was to describe yourself as such and then call SF "sell out bastards". Moron. Go off and read the Star on Sunday you sad bastard.

author by observerpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 18:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

At least he has the Marshall vote .... isnt that right Mick?

author by Equally as cynicalpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 20:38author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It's obvious about the money. It will be needed by Joe and Clare to pay Fingal the €30k legal costs - legal fund aka SP re-election fund!

author by Insiderpublication date Fri Apr 02, 2004 20:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Of the four Dublin City Councillor's: Who is the one who paid his bin charge?
Which two availed of the waiver scheme?
Who never got a bill ?

author by observerpublication date Sat Apr 03, 2004 00:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

paid all their bills.

author by Punditpublication date Sat Apr 03, 2004 18:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Will C&C pay Mick Murphys bills? Well hes gotten them enough business with his attacks on coke. He works for C&C too. Funny that...

When are the SP going to condemn the Westies? Is there some reason why they wont do so? Surely the people of Fingal deserve protection against the Westie thugs. If a couple of ordinary Comunity Activists are prepared to stand up to the Westies then why wont the SP do so?

author by Martin O'Meara - nonepublication date Sat Apr 03, 2004 19:14author address Tallaght Residentauthor phone Report this post to the editors

SF attempting to link the Westies with the SP is one of the funniest and unbelievable things I have ever read on this site. And that is saying soemthing! I find it especially amazing as it seems to be coming from Sinn Fein supporters and everyone knows of SF's links to organised crime and paramilitarism. Every sane person knows that the Sp are not connected to the Westies in any way, their record shows that they have always stood in opposition to gangsters like the Westies.

I would also like to say a few other things. I think it is a bit disingenous to claim the SP are fakes etc as their record of activity in West tallaght does not match Sinn Feins. For those who may not know in Killinarden Sinn Fein have always been the largest party there and have been active for the past 30 years in the area. The reason is because a large proportion of the population of Killinarden are refugees from the North that were kicked out of their areas for being SF activists. It also neglects the fact that Sinn Fein is a much bigger party than the SP and has far more resources, after all Sinn Fein are reputed to be one of the best financed parties in Britain and Ireland. For a more favourable comparison between the two parties I think you have to consider all this. People shoudl look at the record of their public reps, councillors, TDs etc not whether or not who can afford to produce more local papers etc.

author by Killinarden Residentpublication date Sat Apr 03, 2004 19:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I note with interest that no SFer has come on to defend Sinn Fein's track record on Sligo Co Co, Mark Daly support of bin tax, Privitising schools in the North, forcing school workers out on strike, closing hospital facilities in Omagh, supporting partnership in the unions or taking money off big business.....

someone says Mick Murphy works for C&C, so what if he does? we all have to work for someone. The difference with the SP is that they do not take any money off business. Look at the reports of the public offices commission, they are riddled with big business donations to Sinn Fein.

In coke, Ann Speed because of her politics as well as her party's links with Coca cola acted as an agent of the company in getting workers to campaign against solidarity with Colombian workers.

author by hep cpublication date Sat Apr 03, 2004 19:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

sad.

Very Sad.

Joe higgins and co don't have an invisible army to face down armed drugdealing gangs.

Boasting (by subtle inference) that Mary lou does is a very insidious form of polyticks (many bloodsuckers). People are paying attention and they're not stupid. SF should concentrate on the Government who are the real problem.

Why don't SF go away and think of an enlightened way to stop your constituents contracting Hep-C and fuelling the prison/police industry and providing fodder for the big dealers

Heroin on perscription for addicts now!

Clean needle supply in Prisons and streets Now!

No to the political exploitation of Heroin Addiction!

author by SP Observerpublication date Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It appears that the anti bin-tax campaign, led for the most part by the SP, has collapsed and disintegrated. No doubt many factors contribuetd to this. But it appears that the sectarian and elitest approach of the SP leadership has contributed a great deal to the debacle. Of course, we all make mistakes - this is not fatal, provided that we learn from them. I look forward to reading in the SP's material some honest account of their mistakes. They will of course suggest the mistakes of others, and that is fine. But what I think is required, and what I am looking forward to, is their account of their own mistakes. No bluff, concealment or waffle.

If they don't activists would be justified in concluding that this is another sect/ cult, and one that should be given a wide berth in future campaigns.

author by observerpublication date Mon Apr 05, 2004 00:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You hit the nail on the head, SP observer. All of this emanates from the defeat of the bins campaign and the frustration of local activists and then the SP lashing out at SF as if they were somehow to blame for the SPs incompetence. So we more rehashing of the tired old lines about SF being right wing, Coke, ig business, Sligo, etc. One big yawn.

author by pppublication date Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Who were the real incompetant ones? The SP or SF. At least the SP generally argued the correct tactics during the bin tax campaign and actually did some serious work in organising and building non payment. Sinn Fein did absolutely nothing and are now pretending to have done work for electoral reasons. SF are the incompetant ones

author by John - Irish Socialist Network- Personal capacitypublication date Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Observor states; "All of this emanates from the defeat of the bins campaign and the frustration of local activists"

Well I don't know where you live but the campaign is anything but dead in Finglas and I would assume the same can be said in any working class part of the city. Last Saturday the Finglas campaign (a genuinely broad front) set up stalls outside the 3 major supermarkets to collect signatures against the double tax, to ask people to send back their bogus summonses, and to generally let people know the campaign is stlii alive and kicking. The response was a boost for all our activists and a reassurance that the opposition to this unjust tax is still out there.

I would suggest that the "defeat of the bin tax campaign" only exists in the minds of those on the left who have surrendered. Theres still a willingness amongst the working class to fight, it's up to the left to commit to a long struggle and not abandon the fight.

author by Activistpublication date Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You're dead right John, the campaign is still alive and kicking in the City and in DLR. And in Fingal and South Dublin there is still huge anger about it, people are not blaming the campaigns or the parties that called for non payment, they are blaming the government for the fact that they introduced this charge and used all the power of the state to attempt to smash dissent.

People on this site that are reporting massive anger against the SP and the campaign in Fingal and South Dublin as well as the campaign being 'defeated' in the City and DLR are clearly not active on the ground.

author by observerpublication date Mon Apr 05, 2004 13:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

JUne will tell the tale. After which point all the bin charges revolutionaries will have decided that this is not the revolutionary path and moved on to something else.

author by tanzpublication date Mon Apr 05, 2004 15:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"After which point all the bin charges revolutionaries will have decided that this is not the revolutionary path and moved on to something else"

Your forgetting that it was the SP that were always around the bin tax issue, building non payment etc unlike some others on the left the SP did not simply just jump on the bin tax bandwagon when it was at its peak and they could 'sell a few papers and recruit'.

author by citizen - nonepublication date Wed Apr 07, 2004 13:34author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Is this what Sinn Fein has become. there was a time when Sinn Fein would have opposed things like the bin tax and fought against it. A time when Sinn Fein was the main socialist party in Ireland. Now they attack others of they're old idelogy for doing what they used to do. I support the peace process I don't think terrorism was the answer. But sinn fein didn't have to throw out the baby with the bath water.

author by Bintifadistpublication date Mon Apr 19, 2004 23:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Corpo worker ticks bins
Can anyone in the bin tax campaign(s) shed light on why a lone Corpo worker might have been putting a tick on the address stickers of bins on Mobhi Road at 8.00 p.m. this morning? He seemed to have been referring to an electronic notepad. But it WAS early.

author by Bintifadistpublication date Mon Apr 19, 2004 23:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

8 A.m. that is!

author by del - nonepublication date Wed May 05, 2004 23:04author address author phone noneReport this post to the editors

gerry murray was a member of sinn fein but more recently he was active with the irish republican socialist pary, political representatives of the inla. why did he leave the irsp anyone know

author by observerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 01:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Murray was never in SF. Maybe he just represents Dublin West constituents pissed off over the bin charges betrayal and wondering why the money they gave for legal defence is being used to fund the pathetic election campaigns of losers.

author by Truthpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 13:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can SF please STOP spreading these lies about the funding of the SP from the bin tax campaign money. The SP is a registered political party, the election accounts are open to all, if SF are going to make these accusations willl they please back it up with FACTS, they can be found very easily just contact the public offices commission.

Also the accounts of the bin tax campaigns are open to all members to inspect, they are published at the annula AGMs of the campaigns. If the campaigns wish to give donations to partys or election candidates that also must be declared publically to the commission. SO SF please find out the facts before spreading your lies.

I find it very ironic that it is SF that are spreading these lies considering it is SF that arte funded by big business and corporate America. Remember the $5,000 from Coke, that's only the tip of the ice-berg. (This is fact and can be found in the commissions reports)

author by observerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 14:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Don't like it do you? Well, there has been major questions regarding what has happened to bin charges money. One example being South West Inner City where it is quite obvious that both the campaign and its funds have been hijacked to promote an SP candidate who will get 3 or 400 votes on a good day. How many Euro a vote will that come to?

author by Truthpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Where is your evidence. Where is your references to the reports of the Standards in Public Offices Commission? Where are they?

Where are your references to the anti bin tax campaign accounts?

The fact is that anti bin tax money is anti bin tax money and SP money is SP money, they are completely seperate. Observer you are a SF supporter and these are the lies that SF are putting out in areas in which you are under pressure from the SP.

What about SF's funding from big business? This is FACT, I can provide references to various accounts and reports

author by observerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Do you think SF is under pressure from the SP in SWIC!!! Get a grip. In fact I was probably grossly over-estimating the SP vote in SWIC. Be closer to 200. SF are going to take a seat. Then again I would assume that success for you would be to prevent that happening rather than actually win a seat yourselves.

This issue has come up at meetings in the area and you will hear more about it. People are not stupid.

author by shinnerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The white backing boards used by, and paid for by the anti-bin campaigns in Tallaght are being used by Mick Murphy. First time was to advertise a socialist party anti-bin charge meeting. Second time was to advertise his campaign launch in the plaza. I was told this is the case from an anti-bin tax member in Tallaght South.

author by Trithpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

SF took a $5,000 donation off Coke then surprise surprise SF Ard Comhairle member Ann Speed campaigns for Coke in the UCD boycott referendum!

SF are a big business party. Mary Lou McDonald recently attended a ambassadors reception with the 25 EU ambassadors in Dublin Castle prior to attending the May Day rally

SF while in government in the North privitised schools and closed hospital facilities. They also put school term time workers on the dole.

SF in Sligo Borough Council did a deal with the other parties to back bin charges in return for the mayors position.

SF in South Dublin Co Co had their councillor Mark Daly come out publically in favour of Bin Tax and encouraged others to pay it.

Recently SF President and MP Gerry Adams attended a 'breakfast reception' hosted by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce. That is bad enough but at it he said that SF would support service charges if the alternative was privitisation.

All this puts the alleged recycling of a bin tax poster in context.

By the way, every thing I say agsinst is documented fact and I can back it all up with references.

author by observerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Can't wait until SF are in power and you can be deprogrammed in a nice rural setting.

author by gsdlkpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Instead of throwing mud at bin tax prisoners why don't you answer the questions raised about the lack of a position on abortion by SF?

author by couldnt give a fuckpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

we will take 13% of the vote at the next election, we will win over a hundred seats. we are the largest socialist party. you can post till the cows come home. i could'nt give a fuck what you think. you don't matter at all!

author by shinnerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors

wear a condom!

author by Truthpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So what if SF get a pile of votes and councillors? FF will get more votes than SF - FACT. It means fuck all if all you do with your positions is privitise schools, put workers on the dole and close hospitals.

SF is not a socialist party, socialists don't take money off big business and go to breakfast with the captains of industry.

author by shinnerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Fact – Mick Murphy promotes a ban on coke while working for C&C their biggest competitor.
Fact – Joe Higgins attended the funeral of known drug dealers and did nothing to stop the Westies in Mullhudart.
Fact – Last week (Saturday) Mick Murphy went around pubs in Tallaght collecting money but not telling people what it was for. I.e. Bin Tax or to get him elected.
Fact – He is using posters and other material in his campaign that were supposed to be for the Anti-bin tax campaign. This is a total deception.
Having a few cornflakes with the DCC looks tame in comparison to the above.
No doubt the SP will try to have this removed rather than answer the allegations one by one?

author by SP supporterpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Fact – Mick Murphy promotes a ban on coke while working for C&C their biggest competitor."

NO. Mick is not supporting the Coke ban because of this. It's because of the Human Rights abuses. Ann Speed has been supporting Coke because she works for them and she is opposed to Union taking proactive stances on world issues.

"Fact – Joe Higgins attended the funeral of known drug dealers and did nothing to stop the Westies in Mullhudart."

Joe has been very strongly opposed to gangsters in West Dublin. SP proposes community action against anti-social behaviour. Sinn Fein propose individual action such as a few lads beating up small time drug dealers. SF also support the IRA who make money from drugs.

"Fact – Last week (Saturday) Mick Murphy went around pubs in Tallaght collecting money but not telling people what it was for. I.e. Bin Tax or to get him elected."

I'm sure he did tell people what the money was for. Maybe you're jealous that he was getting loads of money. SP get money off ordinary workers. SF get money off big companies such as Coca Cola.

"Fact – He is using posters and other material in his campaign that were supposed to be for the Anti-bin tax campaign. This is a total deception."

Rubbish. The fact is that Corri-Board all looks the same! What makes you think that Mick has Bin Tax corri-board at all. Maybe another campaign members keeps it? The SP probably get the corri-board from the same place as the bin tax campaign. What have SF done in the Bin Tax Campaign? Cllr Daly SUPPORTS Bin tax!

"Having a few cornflakes with the DCC looks tame in comparison to the above."

SF went to a breakfast meeting with the DCC. They heard all about SF "practical politics" ie voting for bin tax and closing hospitals. Do you not see it as wrong for a "socialist" party to socialise with Business leaders in the Chamber of Commerce.

author by shinner - Waiting to be smug in Balrothery.publication date Thu May 06, 2004 15:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Lets face it, Mick Murphy is a gobshite with the personality of a door stop. he is not too bright either. He will not tell people, despite repeated efforts what has happend to the defence fund money. will the sp publish this on the net as sinn fein intend to do with their accounts in the next few weeks. Proportionaly given the size of the two parties the SP earn about the same in corporate donations, that is a fact. we are up front about our money, why cant you tell us what happend to the bin tax defence fund.
last week while begging in the pubs of Tallaght he dint tell people what the money was for because I was one of the people he asked, and he raised fuck all in anyway. i gave him a Euro because I am pretty flush at the moment.

author by Brian C - SP (personal capacity)publication date Thu May 06, 2004 16:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

and this thread reminds me of just why this is.

Some anonymous Sinn Fein members feel free to put up the most vicious lies about named Socialist Party activists. Not political criticism. Not a defense of their own party's actions. Just nasty, lies about individuals intended to leave some kind of lingering doubts.

That "shinner", "observer" and company are resorting to such obviously false allegations is a telling indictment of their politics and of their political organisation. I mean it isn't as if they even picked people they could defame with a degree of plausability. They managed to pick two people (Joe and Mick) who went to prison for the anti-bin tax movement while their own local councillor in Tallght was paying his bill and telling others to do the same. The cheek of it would almost take your breath away.

It does reveal something interesting about Sinn Fein though. When they are put under even a small amount of pressure from a much smaller political organisation the claws come out. Instead of arguing for their political ideas they resort to two almost equally worthless responses.

First we get the line that Sinn Fein is a bigger organisation with many more votes than the Socialist Party. Which no more means that Sinn Fein is a worthwhile organisation than Fianna Fail's much greater size and electoral base means that FF is superior to SF.

Then we get the just as worthless but far nastier personal attacks and insinuations. Have you really so little confidence in your own organisation's record that you can't even defend it without this kind of behaviour?

And for the record, the Socialist Party received not a penny in corporate donations last year or any other year. Strangely enough, the likes of Coca Cola don't give thousands of euro to parties which promise to nationalise them under workers control. And if some corporation did take leave of their senses long enough to offer us the kind of money they give to Sinn Fein, we wouldn't accept it.

For the Socialist Party refusing to take money from the corporate sector is a point of principle, something that I realise is alien to Sinn Fein's "pragmatic politics". The Socialist Party doesn't take money from business. We don't help to introduce privatisation to schools and hospitals. We don't vote for the bin tax. We don't refuse to defend a woman's right to choose. We don't attend business breakfasts with the Chamber of Commerce, or meet and greet sessions at EU Summits, or the World Economic Forum. And we don't shake hands with George Bush.

Unfortunately, Sinn Fein can't say the same, can you?

author by shinnerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 17:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

They are not lies they are all factual, you give no explanation for the attendance of your TD at a Drug Dealers Funeral, a person who destroyed local communities, the possible use of bin tax money and resources of political activities (lets here where the money went). You don’t explain why Mick Murphy was collecting last weekend in Molloys in Tallaght and not telling people what the money was being raised for. You talk about Mick and Joe as the heroes who went to jail, Sir, they are nothing but shameless self promoters who took the opportunity to lead people up the garden path in the vain hope of electoral success in five weeks time, they disgust me, and they will get their answer on June 11th, Mark Daly who has done some work in Tallaght over 5 years will top the poll in Tallaght south while Mick - The opportunist - Murphy will get his marching orders back to Whitechurch. As for feeling under pressure, never felt more confident of our chances in Tallaght. The only real question in the ward is whether Sinn Fein takes two seats.

author by observerpublication date Thu May 06, 2004 17:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So what about Murphy's friends and the bin charges money?

author by shinner.publication date Fri May 07, 2004 14:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

why are the sp not answering the questions put to them?

author by tired editor (personal capacity)publication date Fri May 07, 2004 14:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

or send us some real news. the stuff in the above thread has now been thrashed to within an inch of its life. have to say that it is also more informative than a million election leaflets. And sending trolls on to scream censored censored censored when nothing has been censored for a week on any sf/sp fightclub threads is just childish. the censored.censored no spaces between words trick is just meant to make the threads unreadable. Right? So who are the censors?

author by Firatpublication date Fri May 07, 2004 16:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Perhaps not the place to ask, but was anyone out there involved in UCD Leftie polictics in 1989-1991. Cant remember the name of some lad who broke a speech record - he was definitely involved in Left Wing politics and had an unbelievable knowledge of Irish politics. Anyone know his name and did he make a name for himself subsequently?

author by Raypublication date Fri May 07, 2004 17:03author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I'm pretty sure he was involved in the after-dinner speech thing.

author by Friend of DDpublication date Fri May 07, 2004 17:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He is still involved in politics (in a way). He is a civil servant now - apparently you have to sign some declaration that you won't get involved in politics. Why you need him?, I can get a message to him if it is important. He is not based in Ireland just at present.

author by Firatpublication date Fri May 07, 2004 17:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Thanks Ray - the name rings a bell. The guy he did it with was a FG activist.

I never new the difference betwwen Stickie, Trot, Mao etc until Mr Doherty expalined it all at 3.30am.

I wonder if he a sucessful member of Corporate Ireland?

author by Raypublication date Fri May 07, 2004 17:10author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The other guy was Seamus Kennedy, from Fine Gael. He broke the record again a few years later, with some different guys.

author by Firatpublication date Fri May 07, 2004 17:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

No need to annoy him. I just wandered onto this site by accident - the intra left wing debate is as heated as in 1990!

author by observerpublication date Sat May 08, 2004 01:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mick Murphy and the bin charges money?

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