Media Revolution in Hungary? Riots in Budapest

by tosca - "not to everyone's taste" Thu Apr 23, 2009 01:07

The Hungarian branch of the international entertainment and recording industry giant, MTV opted to air an extended interview this week with a Croatian born Hungarian businessman who died despite the best attempts of his Irish bodyguard to do his duty last week under suspicions circumstances.

Mr Rozsa Flores, who was no stranger to either internet based or print media publicity and image management, had it now appears left precise intstructions that his manifesto supporting the speratist claims of the Bolivian province of Santa Cruz be "well known". be promoted on Hungarian TV if he didn't return from Bolivia

& all that ambition to partition Bolivia continued on its track despite the vast majority of the Bolivian people rejecting the dissolution of thier territorial and socio-economic unitary integrity at several times even unto tippoy toppy observed democratic elections and referenda...

So MTV aired it all.....................perhaps with the usual commercial plugs................merchanidising.....................

If one is rich enough to buy MTV time in most states, one is rich enough to keep a rake of bodyguards. At which point one might give the horrible impression that one is gainfully employing mercenaries, the of the generic group definition rather than the semantically singular and lone bodyguard type.

Henchmen only happen in movies. Even from the grave the Rozsa Flores is getting his bit of quality multifaceted attention. and so he finally merits his illustration on imc.ie .

http://www.eabolivia.com/seguridad/983-rozsa-tenia-plan....html

______________________________________________________________________

meanwhile reminding us all that this whole story really is "his". The Bolivian vice-president Álvaro García Linera has tonight responded to the Hungarian MTV broadcast, remaining firm in his position that the Bolivian state will be implacable and unmerciful in its opposition to those who would undo the territorial integrity of the state. when answering questions from international journalists about his reaction to the Rozsa video on MTV or so BBC mundo would have you believe.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/america_latina/2009/04/09042...shtml

MTV, Facebook, Bebo - loads of states - us lot - the nazi's..................

Hungarian MTV shows "death tape" from "Bolivian coup leader"

Bolivian vice-president reacts to MTV and says his state will be unmerciful (unsympathetic)

by iosaf Wed Apr 22, 2009 22:40

"Right reason wrong people" is how Indymedia Ireland's man on the ground JD reacted to the far-right coup d'etat attempt in Hungary in 2006. It was a curious evening marked by its old-fashioned nature. Far right and ultra elements attempted to seize control of the EU member state by taking over the TV building. That was the only time in history the usually 24/7 MTV had to show its test card.

Yesterday that TV station showed an unedited version of an extended interview with the supposed leader of the Bolivian coup'detat cell who it seems was the man being bodyguarded by former Shell security boy - Dwyer.

He unequivocally states he wishes to establish a seperatist Santa Cruz in the interview.

--------thus toppling Bolivia.

MTV Hungary - a channel with past

by redjade Sun Oct 01, 2006 20:59

Today is the big day - almost two weeks of constant protests - mostly nonviolent and therefore ignored by the international media - and today were local elections across the country. The opposition to the socialists ( http://www.mszp.hu ) and liberals ( http://www.szdsz.hu ) put out the call to make the local elections a referendum on the Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány's ( http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Gyurcsány ) lies and future massive cut backs on social services, pensions, education etc etc.

ex-Pioneer voted mostly for the Humanist list ( http://www.humanista.hu ) - or so she tell me, I wasn't in the booth with her at the time. There's still a secret ballot in Hungary.

Right now we are watching the returns come in - so far all according to what is predictable - early returns say country side voting for Fidesz (centre Right) and urban areas, especially Budapest voting for the Socialists and Liberals (actually Right).

Will fill y'all in with more details as they come in tonight.....

so much paper work

notice the Humanists next to the Socialists

ex-pioneer caught stuffing ballot boxes again!

by redjade - {hey! what's that sound....} Fri Sep 29, 2006 00:39

'The Prime Minister of Hungary has apologised on TV to his fellow citizens'

ummm, iosaf - actually he didn't apologise for anything.

Even in the Nic Robinson CNN interview Gyurcsany did not apologise when offered the chance.

The global media rather missed the point about the lying - it is not that people here are shocked that a politician lies - but that he admitted before the election behind closed doors in a party conference that essentially that lying will be an election strategy to win. And win they did, with a narrow majority. Now that the socialists have won they can do all the cut backs on pensioners and students etc that they will now blame the EU for. Another lie.

After the local elections this Sunday, the Police and border guards will be protesting in the streets against their own cut backs! Imagine that! This might be a protest worth going to :-)

Also funny thing about the football 'hooligans' that caused all these riots (you know its bad when the hungarian government start using irish words) first the said it was all the football hooligans, but a few days ago just before there was a big football match the govt corrected itself and said they now think the riots were started by the mafia! Rather convenient.

tonight there were about 5000 people at the Parliament again. Just because the media has forgotten it doesnt mean that it has ended. If it bleeeeds it leeeeeads - no one is bleeding now.

When you walk through the crowds there during the day its mostly people of the age about to retire - and some than have. The younger ones do the night thing, i think. The age diversity is what interest me more than the 'right wing' or 'left wing' labels that people want throw around.

If Fidesz - the centre 'right' opposition alliance - wins big in the local elections across the country on Sunday then this whole thing will have gotten serious all over again.

Watch the local elections.

20 Szept - Battle for Blaha Square, downtown Budapest

23 Sezpt: Retirees in Revolt at Parliament

by chopin & liszt Thu Sep 28, 2006 19:18

The Prime Minister of Hungary has apologised on TV to his fellow citizens, of whom on average 60% of the adullts bother to vote. That of course includes the Hungarians who aren't resident in Hungary for as we must never forget alone in the EU, Ireland disenfrachises its diasporia. The Hungarians are invited to vote soon in municipal elections. Municipal elections are when most Europeans get a chance to directly elect their local mayor (which you can't do in Ireland either). Abstention for these displays of democracy normally average over 50%. Most well paid or bribed politicians started off on their road to sociopathy by being a city or town councillor.

So for the moment let's turn our eyes to another eastern European state, Poland. The vast majority of Polish migrants in the EU try to find their lives & ways & put down roots in Germany & the UK, both of which are states with over 70million inhabitants & migrants aren't that special anymore. But as a demographic precentage of "host population" Ireland & in particularly Dublin enjoys the most Polish migrants. Which is why Dubliners may you read Polish labels in their supermarket shelves in place of Gaeilge labels which neither Wolfe Tone nor O'Connell, Emmet nor the majority of Irish citizens would understand.

The Polish worried many on the European left by electing a right wing nationalist government, a coalition indeed, the minority party of which may properly be described as "far right". Some (200) Polish citizens yesterday took to the streets to ask for the resignation of their government. They didn't switch off MTV but they did get onto (& start from) indymedia. Here you can see photos & read a brief report in english :- http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/09/352063.html

& if you are one of the significant Polish ethnic group in Dublin or Ireland perhaps you could take the time to read these reports on your "home" indymedia :-

- orginal invitation - http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2006/09/23452.shtml
'Gathering next to the parliment: Government has to go! IVth Polish Reich has to go!'

- http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2006/09/23457.shtml
- http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2006/09/23469.shtml
- http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2006/09/23470.shtml
- http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2006/09/23489.shtml
http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2006/09/23506.shtml
http://www.galba.net.pl/blog/_archives/2006/9/27/236582....html

& maybe then we'll see this story turn into its own article. ( I hope so). If that doesn't take your fancy, you might always like to learn about Fred Chopin & his last days which you can do here :- http://iosaf.allotherplaces.org/?p=142
or you may just want to learn about Liszt instead (he knew Chopin & they were both central to 19th century European nationalism as well as our "western art music tradition" & had they both very big hands too! ) & upon their deaths they both had their hearts taken from their bodies & their hands moulded in wax coz that was considered decent & respectful back then & not a bit satanic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Liszt )

by G M Tamás is a professor of philosophy, a former dissident Thu Sep 28, 2006 03:38

The “left” for these people means poverty, rule by millionaires, mendacity, fake sanctimony and the arrogance of the powerful.

The far-right orators are announcing a regime change to their thinning audiences.

The original cause of the troubles, the absurd neoconservative neo-liberal policies are all but forgotten.

The government is shaken, and the international financial institutions - which created the crisis in the first place with pressure and hair-raising demands - are already planning retribution, a run on the Florin, the Hungarian currency, and a tightening of the credit screw.

With the risk of sounding schoolmasterish, this is the price we pay for the absence of an authentic left-of-centre socialist party and for the absence of a trade union movement faithful to the working people. It is a heavy price and we cannot afford it.

G M Tamás is a professor of philosophy, a former dissident and a former member of the Hungarian parliament

More at
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9800

———

editor note: please do not copy & paste entire articles from other sources - instead, offer an exerpt and always provide the link - as I edited above. -redjade

by redjade Tue Sep 26, 2006 18:37

Giorgio Napolitano
from Wikipedia... 'In 1945, after the end of World War II, Napolitano joined the Italian Communist Party (Partito Comunista Italiano, or PCI). In 1947 he graduated in law. He was first elected to the Chamber of Deputies in 1953. Subsequently, he was elected to the National Committee of the party, and became responsible of the Commission for Southern Italy in 1956.

In that year the Hungarian Revolution took place and was suppressed by the Soviet Union troops. The leadership of the Italian Communist Party considered the insurgents as counter-revolutionaries (l'Unità, the official PCI newspaper, referred to them as "thugs" and "agents provocateurs") and Napolitano complied with the party line. Years later, he has repeatedly declared to be repentant of his stance, and that it was in part due to concerns about the unity of the party and mainly to "the conception that the PCI role and action was inseparable from the 'socialist field' led by the Soviet Union, a field that had to necessarily remain untouched by the 'imperialist' front". In his political autobiography Dal PCI al socialismo europeo ("From the Italian Communist Party to the European Socialism"),[1] Napolitano remembers as a "grievous auto-critical torment" his justification of the Soviet intervention.

The decision, in 1956, created a split in the PCI.'

more at...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Napolitano

—————— ——————

Imre Nagy
from Wikipedia... 'He became Prime Minister again during the brief anti-Soviet revolution in 1956, through popular support, replacing the hardliner András Heged?s. But he was forced to work with hardliner Ern? Ger?, who remained the First Party Secretary.

On 31 October, he announced Hungary's withdrawal from the Warsaw Pact and, on 1 November, he appealed through the UN for the great powers, such as the United States and the United Kingdom, to recognize Hungarian neutrality. He also moved toward a multiparty political system, which is what really infuriated the Communist Presidium and sealed the revolution's -- and Nagy's -- fate.

When the revolution was crushed by the Soviet invasion of the country, Nagy, with others, secured sanctuary in the Yugoslav Embassy. He was arrested, 22 November, in violation of a guarantee of free passage, issued by Kádár, and taken to Romania. He was then returned to Budapest and executed (hanged), with others, after a secret trial in June 1958.'

More at...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Nagy

1975

2006

Today, commemorating Nagy Imre

by anon Mon Sep 25, 2006 17:12

Video and text and photos from a good perspective, of the first nights

http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2006/09/38948.shtml

by iosaf Sun Sep 24, 2006 14:39

irish readers can go to http://indymedia.hu & read updated articles and find pieces in €nglish too.

********************************************************************
as for my views the "EU expansion" thing :-
Make no mistake ex-Pioneer i don't you or any other Hungarian to enjoy less "european rights" as I do. But let's both remember Ireland is out of Shengen & so as far from Barcelona as Budapest. As I've always said "I'd like to see a Union of europeans which was built on workers rights & true equality from the Atlantic to the Urinal, from the Atlas mountains to the Jordan river, from Turkey to wherever Sub Sahara is" but that isn't what the €U is.

Which is I why campaigned against both expansion & constitution.

I do tend to think that manner in which the EU expanded from 12 to 25 states was poorly thought out & hastened for the worst reasons. I don't mean that Hungary, Poland or any other state should not have joined. But i do think the economic bars which were set for entry placed extra-ordinary pressure on state structures to jump. i also believe the subsequent "blessings" of Shengen facilitated "brain drains" on key demographic sections of eastern Europe & that had a cultural effect on the states those young people left. I also do not believe that the millions of eastern europeans who have moved to western states have found anything more than precarity or insecurity not even the record numbers who came as part of the Erasmus exchange program. The more time that they are outside of their home states the more chance is given to right wing & xenophobic elements in their home states to shape the "identity" for the future. I can see no other reason for the emergence of nationalist popularist movements in all the eastern EU states since 25 state expansion. Though I am not ruling out the effects of US foreign policy and the lon term effect of "new europe" rhetoric & the expansion of NATO either.
During which time the vast majority of economic investment & consolidation of assets within states such as Poland or Hungary has not "trickled down" to the ordinary citizen but confirmed an emergent millionaire class now supported by corporate cheap labour relocation.
The 15 state EU had failed to guarantee workers rights & cap real estate bubbles, in fact in its last stage it decided to drop such notions from the Constitution. The only state which appeared to solve it's problems of economic under-development was the tiny population of Ireland, a state which had the key advantage of speaking the american language. Whereas the poverty indicators in the other "former poorest" states of Spain, Portugal and Greece actually got worse at the time they were asked to increased funding for the East. Those formally most problematic states are now thanks to the "magical expansion" to 25 states sitting in the upper middle band of "reduced state expenditure" & providing a model for the future of Hungary, Poland, Slovakia etc..,

What could have been the options?

A preliminary free market & political union between the majority of the states to the east which included rather than excluded Romania & Bulgaria & had set the bar lower was a very real possiblity, but one which would stopped the richest EU states buying up assets in the east & enjoying at home as they do - cheap migrant labour. Such a preliminary union would have meant the eastern states entering the EU on equal terms - something which they most definitely did not do.

make no mistake i don't you or any other Hungarian to enjoy less "european rights" as I do. But remember Ireland is out of Shengen & so as far from Barcelona as Budapest. as I've always said "I'd like to see a EU which was built on workers rights & true equality from the Atlantic to the Urinal, from the Atlas to the Jordan" but that isn't what the €U is. Which is I why campaigned against both expansion & constitution.

"all that glitters is not gold". the €U like the U$ needs english for prosperity & cheap cheap illegal labour. It's a recipe for an emergent far right.

by ex-pioneer Sat Sep 23, 2006 20:00

Sorry, Iosaf but the first article you are linking too, has nothing to do with the whole issue. It's an interview about a small party, called Humanist Party, the picture was taken a long time ago probably, the party was looking for signatures probably against the Hungarian involvement in the Iraq war or something like that.
You are coming to the wrong conclusions regarding the others too. There are some articles in English on Hungarian indymedia.
And at the moment, there are a lot of confusion. Even the facts you are quoting can not be considered facts.
And I don't understand your sentence "But in the last week in Budapest something important occured which shows us in very real terms the lack of "deep thought" which went into how the EU expanded from 15 to 25 states (under Bertie Ahern) & how social democratic societies are made."
Do you mean that Hungary and others shouldn't have become an EU-member?!

by iosaf Sat Sep 23, 2006 18:58

all these links are to Hungarian indymedia. & they consist of the feature or central column articles put to together by that collective. Naturally because they're written in hungarian apart from the photos they may not serve the Irish or other reader much. But in the last week in Budapest something important occured which shows us in very real terms the lack of "deep thought" which went into how the EU expanded from 15 to 25 states (under Bertie Ahern) & how social democratic societies are made. All too often our political discourse these last years has centered on an argument "can democracy be introduced? does military intervention assist its emergence?" rather than in the case of us Europeans lookinng much closer to home & wondering - "how did we get our political systems?".
So let's not forget the facts :-
* The Hungarian riots brought the extreme right onto the street.
* The Hungarian prime minister is the number one suspect for leaking a taped recording in which he admitted lying about the economy.
I am of the opinion and it is one I've expressed often, that our type of "democracy" is most notably different from the regimes of dictatorship almost all europeans experienced in the last hundred years in that sociopathy replaced psychopathy.

the links -
http://indymedia.hu/cikk.shtml?x=32118 shows signatures being taken up for what might be called "impeachment". All well & good, but how far do "grown up" democratic states get when they know their governments lied?
http://indymedia.hu/cikk.shtml?x=32082 discusses the nature of the state's security apparatus (meaning the police). The suggestion is clear - when democracy is besmirched coalitions of interest from far left to far right take to the street and meet in place of the sociopathy of politicians lies the psychosis of riot police.
The photo in that last article thus counterpoints with this feature http://indymedia.hu/cikk.shtml?x=32089

I suggest that this story will last beyond the municipal elections, and become a template for other states of eastern Europe as they reconcile conflicting expectations of "democracy" & work out the nationalist popularism movements they seem to have all brought to the centre. I think of the parties that rule Poland and Romania in particular.

by Totti Fri Sep 22, 2006 20:01

In last weeks local election in the city state of Berlin (Germany), the Party of Democratic Socialism - PDS (former east german communists) lost almost 50% of their voters. The reason for this huge decrease is due to the fact that they have been in the city's coalition government for the last 5 years and helped to destroy social services. They are only socialist by name like all the other east european post communists parties. All these reformed parties support privitisation and adopted a neo-liberal agenda.

by iosaf Thu Sep 21, 2006 17:35

Student protests planned before the conservative party capitalising on popular distaste and the 1956 anniversary brought confrontation to the streets have been cancelled. it would seem Hungarian students might be worried about grants, precarity, housing, condoms &the usual but they're not going to go to the street "@ the moment".

So it's the coalition of interests cobbled together by the Right wing opposition who face off the police for 3 days. & those municipal elections are just around the corner.

As all indications are the office of the Prime minister if not the very same Prime Minister leaked or allowed to be leaked to the radio "the tape". Which is in fact a very high quality recorded internal government memos of the moment when he admitted lying morning, noon and night about the hungarian economy so as to get elected.... to his cabinet..... to the archangel Gabriel...... to the radio listeners..... to you & me.

Hmmmmmmm.....................,

It took me till 01h23 Irish time Tuesday morning (which was 23 minutes after the witching hour in Barcelona) to suggest (in comment one above) That [ "The big question for journalists and democratic types is "who leaked it"? ....................... Or even as if it's going to be that bad for the socialist ruling party. ]

I could put it another way - there have been no "leftist" spontaneous protests or confrontations with police for more than one day in all the new EU states out there to our eastern frontiers or for that matter beyond that border in the former Soviet republics for over 2 years. Which raises the question as we reflect also on the election of the far right German national party to an eastern Germany state of the last week - why are the right wing breaking windows again? it is not simply because state-savy or beurocratically experienced left of centre parties are in power in many of the newer EU states. For as in many others they do not hold power. There is another problem. The one we used up the appropriate words for.

by redjade Thu Sep 21, 2006 02:08

More details tomorrow morning sometime.

Please take the time to download and listen to these two interviews

'Zoltan' (not real name) who describes the night when MTV (Hungarian TV) was attacked by angry demonstrators...
6:38mins / 1.5megs
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/zoltan-mtv-report.mp3

Balazs describes how Hungary exploded in the last couple days and the lasted effect of 'socialism' and the imprint of the Soviet crushing of the 1956 revolution. He also offers some interesting observations about how media behaves in a post-socialist country...
#1 - 15:42mins / 3,6megs
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/balazs1.mp3
#2 - 16:43mins / 3.8megs
http://radio.indymedia.org/uploads/balazs2.mp3

'Vote for Socialism' - Socialist Party (MSZP) billboard vandalised by protesters near Blaha Square last night

by Cyberiacycler - MadDogs #736- Wed Sep 20, 2006 19:52

IT was not the wife of PM Gyurcsany that acquired lots of property in Tokai but the former "Youth Party " PM's wife.

by peripheraldisorder Wed Sep 20, 2006 18:00

the government/ politicians lied to gain support whilst trying to win election, eh, what the fuck is new about that? politicians lie, manipulate and bend the truth all the time. In fact, lets be honest , we all do regardless of our political affiliation. Ok, in this case, the politician is blatantly caught red handed but lets not over react by calling it a media revolution etc, it seems also that those ' rioting' are right-wing football hooligans, but then again, if it emerged that Bush was caught on tape, admiting he lied about Iraq we would hope our comrades on the left would take to the streets and riot in the same way... jesus, the pain and hypocrisy of politics kills me.

by Cyberiacycler - MadDogs #736- Wed Sep 20, 2006 16:50

Cuba? Are you serious, Can you say Narcissism? My question is: why would the citizenry of a nation risk their lives to escape a form of government that makes them "Superior"? Don't be fooled into thinking that there is no Capitalism happening in Cuba. The only Reason that Cuba is "Socialist" is because Castro deems it so. It is not by their actions. They have a Thriving Tourism gig going that hosts everyone but Americans. Castro is a despot and Shame on him for stealing the lives of generations. Cubans die everyday in the Florida Straits trying to escape their "Superior" lives. As far as resistance to Cultural Homogenization with United States? Too late! It happens everyday in a State called Florida.

Oops! Did just say that all of that out loud?

nuff said.

by Cyberiacycler Wed Sep 20, 2006 16:19

The sad thing is that This was very much of a case of carving up the country after 1989. I may have my facts wrong but I believe that Most of the Tokai Region
(a vast wine region) was privatized and is in the hands of the Prime Minister's wife. As Hungary nears complete Integration into the European Union, the Citizens will have to demand better from their government. Where are the Champions of their counrty? If the wrong people are protesting for the right ideal, Where are the right people?

"Dear John" said: "referring to the policies adopted in Hungary post 89:

"It has been the attempt to bring Hungary into convergence with the macroeconomic policies of the EU that have led to the belt tightening that is proving deeply unpopular with the mainstream of the Hungarian population and has left their finances in such a terrible condition."

For a true glimpse of what Hungary has in store you need look no further than Italy and how doing things like adopting the "Euro" as a form of currency has done for them. It has gutted the Middle class there and it happens in Hungary today. Even Professors, Doctors, and Engineers that are nearing retirement will receive the amounts in their pensions as originally designated which under the the former economy would have been sufficient but now is so small few of them will be able to pay their Electricity. Unfortunately, two generations in Hungary will have to sacriface for the good of the country. They will suffer the most significant impact of the Political corruption and economic morass. These people deserve better than what they are getting.

To quote a line from the poem 'Casey at the Bat' "There is no joy in Mudville, Mighty Casey has struck out"

by ex-pioneer Wed Sep 20, 2006 14:33

Just because a party is called socialist that doesn't mean they are the 'the goodies' . MSZP was formed from old MSZMP (Hungarian Socialist worker's Party) who ruled the country for 40 years, by its members. The same fuckers are still members. In 1989 they decided it was time to move on, get rich, introduce capitalism.
They and the so-called liberals have been the biggest capitalists in the country. Whenever they were in power, they have and are selling off everything that possible.Now they are thinking about the privatization of healthcare and education.
(Gyurcsany himself got his millions from the privatization of public property.)
I'm really sick of people applying their ideological socialist attitude to real life events from the distance of thousands of miles
I'm not saying the other parties are better, but MSZP and the Liberals have had the most damaging effects on this country.

by Socialist Wed Sep 20, 2006 14:33

Cuba is the only real socialist country on earth.
Of course as a capitalist apologist you judge a country's success by how its economy performs.
But in Cuba for almost fifty years the success of the socialist system has been measured by its resistance to cultural homogenisation with America, resistance to imperialism and resistance to materialism.
The people of Cuba do not indulge in the same selfish polluting destructive consumer lifestyle as you do - that does not make them inferior - rather it makes them superior - they merely want to live in harmony with one another in total equality.
This system must be centrally managed by trusted party leaders and who better can be trusted than Fidel Castro, a hero to the world's poor.

by historian Wed Sep 20, 2006 14:33

Good post John. In fact there is not much difference between totalitarians of the left and the right when they attempt to excuse their persistence in adhering to the discredited dogmas of socialism or fascism by claiming that the socialist and fascist states of the past were not "really" what they purported to be. They also share the characteristic of either denying or downplaying the scale of the atrocities committed in the name of both.

by The truth Wed Sep 20, 2006 14:32

Bertie Aherne calls himself a socialist, yet we never see you posting about his great socialist credentials. Quite simply he doesn't have any. Just because a political party has the term socialist in the name of it's party does not mean that the party is socialist. If that party introduces neo liberalism, an ideology you so idiotically love, than their countries economy is going to the shitter. This isn't becuase of socialism it is becuase of neo liberalism and idiots, such as yourself who espouse this utterly unworkable system.

by John Wed Sep 20, 2006 14:26

Every time I point out the economic failure in countries with socialist governments you respond by saying that these governments aren't really socialist at all. Well, they call themselves socialist, so you can hardly complain if non-socialists judge socialism on how those countries with self-proclaimed socialist governments perform. I wonder if national socialists employ the same tactic? I wonder whether on those websites supporting national socialism do they say things like 'yes, Hitler may have murdered 6 million Jews, but he wasn't a true national socialist, so don't judge national socialism by his record'. Same thing really. But I'll be generous, so please give me the name of one country in the world today that has a government which in your eyes actually is a socialist one, then we can compare how its economy is performing with how Ireland's economy is performing. If its performing better than Ireland's, I'll vote socialist in the next election.

by Ciarán Wed Sep 20, 2006 13:37

John writes that it's a bad week for socialists? Unfortunately, many mainstream "socialists"in Europe are anything but. Definitely a case of it not being "exactly-what-its-says-on-the-tin"; sad to say. What's happening in Hungary is tentative evidence that each population has its breaking point when it comes to neo-liberalism and incessant "reforms". Now it should be much clearer to people that lying is one of neo-liberalism's central components. This applies to Ireland as much as Hungary. In Ireland the lying takes the form, to take just one example from many, of ignoring the fact that wages have to be supplemented by credit for most people to have any chance of living a half-decent life. This can last for so long before something gives.......... Unfortunately, with the bankruptcy and militant middle-classness of much of the "left" here the only beneficiaries of a meltdown here will be our fascist sleeper cells within the right-wing parties. Like in Hungary the far-right has more to offer people than the militant "middle-of-the-road-ness" of our mainstream left or the more socialist left which refuses to engage in formulating a palatable or realistic alternative. Interesting time.

by Jimmy From Ballygomartin Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:23

I understood Hungary embraced Capitalism after 1990 so how are these street disturbances protests against socialism? Hungary , with its large rural population, has long been enamoured with Catholic Fascism, which breaks out periodically like boils.

by Dear John - Materialist Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:18

Eh.

John?

Their country is a ruinous economic state because of the policies adopted after 1990, the policies of neoliberalism and capitalism.

It has been the attempt to bring Hungary into convergence with the macroeconomic policies of the EU that have led to the belt tightening that is proving deeply unpopular with the mainstream of the Hungarian population and has left their finances in such a terrible condition.

And as we all know, what Hungary lived before 1990 was not socialism and fortunately no matter how many times you repeat that lie, it will never become the truth!

by John Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:40

Looks like being a very bad week for socialism. The Hungarians are rebelling against the socialist government. The left-wing government in Sweden has been given the boot. And the latest opinion poll in Ireland (Irish Examiner yesterday) shows support for FF, FG and PDs up and support for Labour, SF and Greens down. Given the collapse in their economy, its likely we'll soon be having an influx of Hungarians coming to live and work in Ireland on the same scale that we currently have Poles, Latvians and Lithuanians. After what socialism has achieved in Hungary, its unlikely they will be lining up to join any of Ireland's dozen or so socialist parties.

by righteous pragmatist Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:27

Hungary cannot be allowed to descend into civil war or worse.
The government must stand aside and allow new elections so that the people of Hungary as a whole not just a wild mob on the streets can decide their beleagured countries future.
Political legitimacy exists in the ballot box.

by redjade Wed Sep 20, 2006 01:11

...sitting here in my safe European home...
http://www.musicsonglyrics.com/C/theclashlyrics/theclas...s.htm

More reports coming, but things turned ugly again tonight (and as I write this) protesters have walked uyp from the parliament to the MSZP HQ and are battling police on Rakoczi Utca. Loud noices and yelling and screams and the sort constantly at 1am our time.

News reports what they only what they vaguely mentioned last night - police firing gun shots into the air.

The hooligan/Right Wing element again - but still political, that part is undeniable.

The PM still will not resign, the Liberals have backed as has the socialist party. The EU EPP has demanded he step down - the EU PES has backed him. These EUro Fractions may not mean much in ireland but their opinion is reported on the news here as important.

Sidenote: During the 1956 Revolution the Suez Crisis distracted the world from what was happening in Budapest - people still talk about how that distratcion this may have set hungary's fate. And tonight the world watches Thailand. Is it the same? or just 2nd time farce?

[several more loud noices outside our flat just now - four in a row - and the corwd cheers]

HirTV is not showing everything live as they did last night - a bit obvious someone got to them.

The photos uploaded are of 100+ riot cops brought in by bus. Hundreds more brought in by bus as well - public transportation.

[ex-pioneer asks if the noises are gun shots or just banging on windows of shops?]

All the pleas today for peaceful protest have gone unheard and the intensity continues.

more later....

Riot cops get off busses

riot cops prepare to defend Socialist Party HQ

by observer Tue Sep 19, 2006 21:43

"no matter what the citizens do they do not have the capacity to disobey as most of them are far too busy just trying exist."

But I'd say we'll be waiting a long time before anyone storms Montrose ...

by iosaf Tue Sep 19, 2006 21:42

I'll finnish Elävä kala ui veden alla
my observations on ugraic linguistic diasporia indydmedia community affairs & feedback with a compare & contrast link comment - to a "coup d'etat" with soldiers but no broken windows. They turned off more TV for longer. Whose side are you on?
http://indymedia.ie/article/78499&comment_limit=0&conde...67775

the living fish swims in water (c/f http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_living_fish_swims_in_water )

by CyberiaCycler Tue Sep 19, 2006 18:10

I agree with ex-pioneer's observations. I am married to a Hungarian and we still have relatives there (Miskolc, Hungary). Their take on this is exactly the same. It is the wrong people protesting (Those with no agenda) for the right idea. Additionally, The citizen's are completely suspicious of the government there today. They are of the opinion that the governmant is corrupt and no matter what the citizens do they do not have the capacity to disobey as most of them are far too busy just trying exist.

by Mike Novack Tue Sep 19, 2006 16:37

Thanks "ex-pioneer". Please try to keep us informed about what's going on. Although my mother was born in Hungary and didn't come to the US till her early teens I only know a few words of the language (she and my grandgmothe , both totally fluent in English by the time I was born, took pains that we kids NOT learn their oh so useful "code language").

If you can, try to fill in background too. For example, what sort of "far right"? I'm not up on "recent" Hungarian socio-political history -- know just enough to realize that at least in the past century this could mean some rather different sorts of groups all correctly described as "far right". Most of us out here would not realize that.

by ex-pioneer Tue Sep 19, 2006 15:35

pictures about last night- by a news agency
(click on the pictures to see the series)

by ex-pioneer Tue Sep 19, 2006 15:01

As a Hungarian myself, living in Budapest, i can't really figure out what's happening now.
As a conspiracy theorist, I'd say last night was a provocation.
The reasons:
- The country is in a terrible financial situation.
-There's a local election campaign going on.
- The socialist/liberal government has already introduced harsh economic/social cutbacks etc They are definitely planning more.
But they still want to win the elections.
- Loads of organizations, groups have already organized demontrations against the cutbacks. The government is bringing in tuition frree at colleges, universities (up until now, it was free until you got your first degree). There will be an organized student demo on thursday.
- At the same time, an anarchistic student network is forming and plotting.
- For Friday, a Critical Mass was organized. Here it means 20-30 thousand people or more.
-Last night, it was a group of far right and football scumbags who stormed the building.
Government wants to ban the demos, I think. Critical Mass has been already cancelled by the organizers. The buildings of the main university, ELTE have closed down and didn't give permission to the anarchistc Student Network to have meetings in the buildings.
Originally, during the election campaign anybody can have protest or rally without any permit from the police. Now that has changed.
I'd say, the government is hoping to be able to declare state of emergency so that they could bring in any regulation they want.
At the same time, I hope I'm just too paranoid and pessimistic. I hope this is a start of something good. I hope that the destuction by far right scumbags will be succeeded by peaceful, non-violent disobedience.
Gyurcsany and government has to go, so does the parliament. All politicians are fucking liars there (as everywhere), we don't even have somebody like Joe Higgins.

At the moment, I surely won't go out to the streets- until I know that things are not happening according to a probably pre-written script by the government.
More about last night in English:

by Common Sense Tue Sep 19, 2006 13:56

Calling this a "Media Revolution" is a bit premature. A few hundred people rioted in front of the television station, occupied it and did some damage. Comparing it to '56 also seems a bit dewy-eyed as the rioters are members of the right-wing 64 Counties Youth Movement .

It also seems unlikely that it will succeed due to the fact that there is widespread EU institutional and US support for the government (as opposed to '56).

by redjade Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:23

The attacks seen last night were situated in 'Liberty Square' which is near the the Parliament and the US and Irish Embassies - no violence or property distruction was aimed at housing or people - just political targets like the state owned public television station, MTV.

The property values going up etc is an interesting point but I think is only relevant in the broader context of the neo-liberal politics and economics brought to hungary by the socialists - and this has made it so the only large political force to resist it has been the Right.

Today will be the day when this will either bring down the PM or not. I'm not going to make bets either way.

more later

by Henri Sans Charvet Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:06

This must be a sharp wake up call to the thousands of Irish nouveau-riche who have being buying up cheap property (by Irish standards) throughout Eastern Europe. Personally I have no sympathy for them. They are just speculators who are artificially boosting local property prices so that young Hungarians, Slovenes, Poles etc cannot afford to buy a house at home. (Sound familiar to any young home buyers out there?). If revolution really does come, and I doubt it - the IMF, EU and World Bank wouldn't allow it - but if it does come these people will lose more than their shirts. And what nice shirts they are! (Charvet).

by redjade Tue Sep 19, 2006 02:48

sad for me to say but...
I'm sitting this revolution out

as ex-pioneer said to me - its for the right reasons but the wrong people are doing it.

This is not the 'Left' protesting in the streets but mostly the nationalist Right (the 'Left' is the government but theres nothing 'Left' about it) - members of Jobbik and MIEP [ http://jobbik.hu / http://www.miep.hu ] are most likely there tonight. I don't like them.

Also as backdrop to it all - next month is the 50th anniversary on the 1956 Hungarian Revolution that was so brutally crushed by the Soviets.

PM Gyurcsany did not only admit he was lying, but that lying was a campaign strategy to win the recent elections, plus he swore like a sailor and more or less called Hungary a Whore of a Country (rough translation).

I barely know the Hungarian language but watching and listening to Gyurcsany you will quickly know he's an arrogant and pompous man. This time he just went too far - but remember this was a speech made back in May in a private conference with the MSZP [ http://MSZP.hu (Magyar Socialist Party, formerly the MSWP) and was never meant for public consumption. So, the whole party is implicated in this speech since the entire membership listened to him admit to lying and.... laughed!

So yesterday and today and tonight and undoubtably tomorrow all over the country there will be more protests. News says people will be shutting down roads tomorrow in the smaller cities and towns outside Budapest.

So, yeah, people are pissed off now.

Also they are pissed because teh MSZP promised everything and only now is saying everything has to be cut back - pensioners screwed, students pay more etc.

Gotta love socialists! always the first to fuck over the working classes i suppose.

Anyway, ex-pioneer and i have been watching it live on HirTV [ http://www.hirtv.hu ] all night and listening to the sirens go down the streets. The police blundered big time with poor tactics early on by sending a lone water cannon truck into the crowd with out back up from riot cops.

I watched it and thought of Dublin in 2004 - the Irish Riot cops (well trained by their comrades in the North) had a two line defense, plus at least two water cannon trucks. Sending one truck in was easily over taken by the crowd. Later the cop inside the truck was escorted by the crowd safely to the police on the side watching all this. The cop looked terrified.

Its 2:30 local time now - news says the crowd is now moving back to the parliament building.

more rumours later on...

tonight paula g is in bulgaria and missed her chance to shoot photos of a socialist government being overthrown - and she was only here less than 48hrs ago

by iosaf Tue Sep 19, 2006 02:23

Hungarian state TV is off the air. BBC is covering it on their breaking news. There seem to be a few hundred, possibly a thousand people in front of the TV offices. Pictures of police water canon in use are also getting through. From experience this suggest to me a larger area of confrontation than that immediately visible to the BBC's cameras. Many of those in the pictures are themselves carrying cameras - perhaps they are indymedia activists, perhaps indeed "our pals" are amongst them. =If you have credit on your mobile or your skype is up & running (neither of which I have) give them a call.

A spokesperson for the ruling socialists has said that the recording is of exceptionally high quality and was a "government memo record". The big question for journalists and democratic types is "who leaked it"? The recording clearly shows the prime minister admitting with his cabinet that figures on the hungarian economy had been massaged - faked - invented....

Spokesperson for hungarian Tv has reminded foreign observers that the TV station is part of the "national security chain" (which is very normal - see how far you get squatting montrose RTE). There have been suggestions that elements in the crowd had wished to borrow airtime to make some sort of national broadcast. No one has suggested they were announcing a new revolutionary government, or the magyars were going to see pictures of Redjade & his christmas tree "behold your new leader" style. But these observations & suggestions & quite completely non-factual conjecture rather than reporting also _suggest_ the crowd ar teh TV station :-
"·have no agenda".-

I worry when the crowds with no agenda turn up looking like many of my readers (yes you sir!) with their video cameras and assorted flags. The flags I've seen on internet coverage of the riot are plain hungarian, hungarian crested. That might mean something, again it might not... I have not seen any anarchist or red commie banners or any lesbian gay transexual banners : put it that way.

Sunday saw concentrations throughout the state calling for the resignation of the government. But as I said above.... "switch off the telly"

It will be interesting to see how this is reported (factually / opinion) in commercial media throughout Europe (if at all). & I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering what our "own correspondents" in Budapest will have to say. So finally as I "samuel pepys" style "off to bed" might I just say that having watched loads of revolutions on webcams & newswires - whatever is happening in Budapest might seem out of the ordinary but it doesn't strike me as being close to "toppling the state"................... Or even as if it's going to be that bad for the socialist ruling party. So heck................. I eat my words. Off you go you youngsters of Eire - you deserve 15 minutes of RTE time.