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Alan Shatter's Methods Like "that Of Nazi Propaganda Minister"

category national | anti-war / imperialism | feature author Saturday January 17, 2009 14:21author by indyjourno Report this post to the editors

featured image

The Irish Times in a front page article expose their total lack of journalistic focus.

One of the problems with the media today is their tendency to focus on scandals as opposed to analysing the spin coming from the political establishment. Instead of offering the public a critical eye of the spin, the media likes to focus on ‘big scandals’ as that’s what ‘sells papers’. The desire to focus on a scandal often means that the substantive issue that should have been focused on gets ignored in the tabloid style moral outrage. Wednesday last, 14th January, in a front page article by Mary Minihan we were exposed to a crass example of the problem I have expressed. Read The Irish Times article here.

During the Israeli ambassador's visit to the Dáil, at an emergency meeting of the Oireachtas Foreign Affairs Committee to discuss the conflict in Gaza, Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Sinn Féin TD) attacked the ambassador and resident Zionist Alan Shatter, Fine Gael TD. It seems that Aengus, unhappy with the spin that the two were bringing into the debate compared their methods to “that of Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels.” Aengus was unhappy with their attempts to expose the Oireachtas committee to “propaganda, twisted logic and half truths”.


What were these “propaganda, twisted logic and half truths”? Unfortunately for us we aren’t informed of what they were. Instead we are told “At the end of the meeting, Dr Evrony said he had heard many false accusations and examples of rewriting of history. “What overshadows this discussion is this despicable analogy the deputy from Sinn Féin made,” he said.” Quickly followed by a demand for an apology. Many readers of indymedia would view this demand as totally hypocritical given that there is no apology forthcoming from the ambassador for the deaths of hundreds of innocent children, the bombing of schools and ambulances and the use of banned weapons. We aren’t even informed of what the “many false accusations and examples of rewriting of history” are, we are just told of the ambassador's continued empty rhetoric with no journalistic critique given whatsoever. Dr Evrony said “some deputies here would always believe everything Israel did was wrong and everything Palestine did was right" "They have their stereotypes. Don’t confuse them with the facts,” he said. “When you are deep in prejudice and stereotypes you are bound to fall into traps like this.” No attempt is given by the journalist to state what the supposed facts are and whether they are truthful or not, instead we are presented with emotionally loaded language from the ambassador that what he is saying (whatever that is) is the facts.

Alan Shatter's role in this shabby article is of the outraged TD who is Jewish and victimised by the Sinn Féin TD with links to the IRA. While not written in the article, the IRA looms strongly in the background of it. Alan Shatter is quoted in the article as stating “it’s particularly appalling to suggest that a member of this House conducts himself in such a manner that resembles the conduct of the chief propagandist of Hitler’s Nazi Party, and quite extraordinary that such remarks should be made by a Sinn Féin member about the only Jewish member of this parliament.” Again in the article no critique is given just a cut and paste of Alan Shatters remarks. We are not informed of Alan Shatter's long support of Zionism and military attacks against the Palestinian people. Instead the paragraph with the quotation is framed in such a way that it allows Alan Shatter to imply some sort of republican threat against Jewish people.

So what about the Palestinian ambassador? Well the only quotation from the ambassador, Dr Ajjuri, is at the end of the article in which he states that Gaza is a “virtual prison, cut off from the world completely, with massive economic consequences amounting to a humanitarian disaster”. Which we had already been informed of several paragraphs above by the Israeli ambassador was “false accusations and examples of rewriting of history.”

This article did not belong on the front page of a ‘respectable broadsheet’. The journalist, instead of offering the public a critical eye and analysing the spin from all participants of the committee, merely regurgitated the spin from the participants and focused in on the most ‘scandalous’ part which was the accusations by the Sinn Féin TD. Now critics of what I say might point out that the journalist in question might be trying to be objective but everybody knows that news stories are inherently subjective. If no analysis is given by the journalist they are merely regurgitating spin in their articles. What this essentially means is that the journalist in question is merely cut and pasting the spin in to their articles and in most cases peddling lies and distortions to the public as a whole. This has worked very well for the establishment in the US where the spin on Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Iraq war emanating from Bush and his establishment were regurgitated without analysis allowing absolute fabrications and distortion of facts to be peddled to the masses as genuine news. The issue of ‘objectivity’ in the media has often led to ridiculous situations where instead of a critique of the spin we are given two quotations from people from both sides of the debate in the article as if they both were of equal honesty. The Society of Professional Journalists http://www.spj.org/aboutspj.asp removed objectivity from their standards of ethics in 1996 http://www.alternet.org/story/16348/?page=1 However, supposed objectivity remains the standard in the media across most of the world. This takes an important twist when you consider that in many cases PR companies advise political parties and corporations on how to frame their statements and speeches to get their points across (factual or not) and control the debate. This puts community activists and community organisations and even poorer political parties at a considerable disadvantage. The art of spin is more important to the political establishment than the truth or the validity of what they are proposing.

The Irish Times article doesn’t belong on the front page of any paper let alone the supposed paper of record. However, don’t expect an apology from the Irish Times or the journalist for a sloppy, sensationalist and vacuous article. Although the article highlights the importance of projects such as indymedia for analysis of the spin because, as most of us are already aware, we are not going to get it from the media. https://www.indymedia.ie/article/90365

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Thu Jan 15, 2009 16:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I wonder how Shatter would react if Dublin zoo were attacked by tanks, F16s and helicopter gunships because an escaped tiger had mauled and killed a few people outside the zoo?

I'm sure he wouldn't be blaming all of the other the animals in the zoo for being on the receiving end of overwhelming and indiscriminate military force.

I doubt also that he would be accusing the tiger of hiding itself among the civilian population if it returned to the zoo after such an attack and using this as justification for exterminating all of the other animals in the zoo.

Obviously Shatter cares more about animals than Palestinians having voted to ban live hare coursing and been president of the Irish Council against Blood Sports.

Shows you where the rights of Palestinians come on his list of priorities!

author by Miriampublication date Thu Jan 15, 2009 17:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

ACTION ALERT: FAX ISRAEL
Haitham Sabbah

*** PLEASE SPREAD WIDELY ***

After the successful email campaign, it's time to move to the next level: calling some of the war criminals.

Objectives of this campaign are as follows:

1. Bombard their phone/mobile/fax lines with anti-war, anti-Zionist messages. This can be in the form of calls, faxes or even sms's;
2. Waste the time of these war criminals as much as possible. Some of them are doing nothing else but jumping on the TV screens to spread lies and hatred. They justify killing Palestinian children and civilians;
3. Directly delivering to them the message that we are disgusted by what they are doing and they should stop now;
4. Show them the magnitude of support that Palestinians have after the world witnessed their war crimes in Gaza.

Let's start with war criminal, Mark Regev, International Media Adviser to the Prime Minister.

His MOBILE number is: +972-5-0620-3264 and his office number is +972-2670-5354
If you like to follow your call/sms with an email, use this one:
mark.regev@it.pmo.gov.il

Second war criminal, Shlomo Dror in the Ministry of Defence.
His MOBILE number is +972-5-0629-8148, office number is +972-3697-5339, fax number is +972-2670-5602
As before, if you like to follow it up with an email, use this:
mediasar@mod.gov.il

Third war criminal is Major Liebovitz from the Israeli Navy
His MOBILE number is +972-5-781-86248
(Sorry, I could not find his email. If you have it, please share it to update this post.)

If you know or come across any mobile number* of any Israeli war criminal, please send it to (haitham.sabbah@gmail.com) so that I can update the list here. Meanwhile, you can bombard the top war criminal, Olmert and his office assistance, managers, spokesperson, etc… Please visit the following page to select the name that you like to play with and pick his/her office number and/or fax number.
http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/PM+Office/Contacts/

Note: To call or fax any in the above list, remove the "zero" and add +972 (Israel Int'l code) before the number. (Example: Ehud Olmert's phone number is 02-670-5555 will become +972-2-670-555, fax number is 02-670-5475 will become +972-2-670-5475)

I suggest that you put your feelings on paper either by drawing or as a letter (in any language, in fact using other than English language will keep them busier and waste more of their time, which we want) and fax it to the maximum fax numbers you find there, but phone calls are still very important if you can.

More? Yes, you can do more. Call or fax the current Knesset members. Go to the following link, select any name and you will find their phone and fax numbers. Again, to call or fax any, remove the "zero" and add +972 before the number. (Example: Benjamin Netanyahu (a.k.a. Bibi the butcher!) phone: 02-6408456 will become +972-2-6408456 and his fax number is 02-6496659 which becomes +972-2-6496659)

Knesset members:
http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mkindex_current_eng.as...iew=0

Also Knesset Directory (add +9722 before the numbers you find here):
http://www.knesset.gov.il/description/eng/eng_directory.htm

To: The Israeli Ministry of Defense, Fax: +972-3-697-6717
To: The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Fax +972-2-5303367

Last but not least, share a copy of your fax with others. Please post your fax on this flickr group:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/fax-israel/

PS. Feel free to do the same with any and all pro-Israel war on Gaza. You can start with:

White House (although they are busy backing up there files, but we can only hope that Obama will get something to read and learn about on his first day in office):
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/

The Congress (which justed gave Israel new green light to kill kids and women of Gaza):
http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/
https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

Be creative! Search for the contacts of your government official's website and contact them. Save Gaza!

Remember, Silence is Complicity!

* Israeli mobile numbers start with the following codes:
9725 Israel-Mobile
9726 Israel-Mobile
97251 Israel-Mobile
97253 Israel-Mobile
97255 Israel-Mobile
97256 Israel-Mobile
97258 Israel-Mobile
97252 Israel-Mobile-Cellcom
97257 Israel-Mobile-Mirs
97254 Israel-Mobile-Partner
97250 Israel-Mobile-Pelephone
Source: http://www.nstelcom.com/support/codes_il.htm

Link: http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m50738&hd=&size=1&l=e

author by Conor.M - S.E.E.Dpublication date Thu Jan 15, 2009 19:45author address author phone Report this post to the editors

For the first time in months I put down the Irish times in absolute disgust. I was shocked and couldn't believe the poor journalistic effort put into this story. I'm giving the Times a break for a while............

''Dont worry about the 1,000 dead people, around 300 of which are children, and the disastrous crisis in Gaza.... but look at this, SINN FEIN - SHOCKING BEHAVIOR''

When did the Times become a tabloid

author by francis hughespublication date Thu Jan 15, 2009 21:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yeah the Zionists apologists with their twisting of the truth and revisionism have plenty of friends in our papers. Some of them for some reason start dragging up an Irish Republican, anti-imperialist revolutionary Sean Russell who sought military help from Germany in the fight against Britain- the biggest genocists through the previous centuries. They claim that because Germany was under the Nazis that somehow any Irish republican cannot criticise Israels atrocities. Sean Russell or any republicans from 30s or 40s never shared nazi/anti semitic views. they were in fact engaged in battles here with actual quasi fascists the Blueshirts and in Spain against Franco. .......Anyway In fact most people durin the war didnt know of concentration camps and remember before Germany start invadin, most of europe turned a blind eye to hitler and his anti-semitism, they thought of him and facism as a bulwark against communism. Irish republicans have always been against imperialism, whether it be here or the middle east. SHAME ON THE MEDIA. p.s where is Sean Russells descendants when the gutter drag this stuff up. Fair play to yer man O Snodaigh sayin that. He was sayin what were all thinkin

author by Pat Oharapublication date Fri Jan 16, 2009 08:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I agree with this analysis:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myer....html

.

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Fri Jan 16, 2009 09:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Opinions are like assholes.

Everybody has one but most of them stink!

This is particularly true of facist Kevin Myers (he really has a neck calling others facists) who will defend all manner of racism against travellers, Muslims and even people born out of wedlock.

Is this really the best you can do to support your "case"?

Robert Fisk, a real journalist, not a whoring, free-loading hack who hung around Belfast for a few years, has an opinion on Gaza and Hamas based on facts, not knee-jerk or something he overheard in a bar or a taxi.

You would do well to read it:

"I've reported the excuses the Israeli army has served up in the past for these outrages.

Since they may well be reheated in the coming hours, here are some of them:
1. that the Palestinians killed their own refugees
2. that the Palestinians dug up bodies from cemeteries and planted them in the ruins
3. that ultimately the Palestinians are to blame because they supported an armed faction
4. or because armed Palestinians deliberately used the innocent refugees as cover."

He also points out a pattern of Israeli denials, claims of blood libel etc. which are later revealed to be lies by Israeli commisions of inquiry.

This propaganda is obviously what O'Snodaigh is talking about and I can't say I disagree with Bob Fisk or by extension SF on this one.

Shatter as I have said before is the apologist in-chief for Israel in this country and cares more about animals than he does about murdered, tortured and brutalised Palestinian civilians, women and children!

If you want to be disgusted about something try the excuses/opinions (assholes) of Mark Regev, Alan Shatter and Zion Ivrony and see how shit tastes!

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/....html

author by Pat Oharapublication date Fri Jan 16, 2009 09:53author address author phone Report this post to the editors

So they are ALL Fascists.

Enda Kenny, Dick Roche etc. etc. etc...

The Leader of the Opposition, Enda Kenny, called O'Snodaig's comments ""Despicable and beneath any member of the Oireachtas".

The minister for European affairs,Dick Roche, called the comments "Sickening".

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-leader-deman....html

Fascists all..

God help us.

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:16author address author phone Report this post to the editors

All of the people running to defend the indefensible and ignoring the elephant of Israeli abuses and murder in the room are gutless and worthless!

Just like Chamberlain in Munich!

Only the Bolivians have the cojones to expel the Israeli ambassador.

Hell we haven't even had the guts to withdraw our ambassador to Israel, never mind expel theirs!

Cowen limits himself to talking about proportionality.

What a cop-out!

Myers is a facist though, and a cheerleader for zionist ethnic cleansing and murder as is Shatter.

The Palestinians are not worthy of a mention and the purveyors of "opinion" (assholes) focus on SFs statement of fact, rather than the facts on the ground in Gaza.

Shatter regards Palestinian women and children as being less worthy of protection than hares and is cast as the victim of the piece.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Alan-Shatter

Shatter 's lack of compassion and behaviour in propagandising on behalf of the criminal state of Israel is a disgrace and he should be ashamed of himself.

author by Pat Oharapublication date Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I agree with everything that Fisk says in his article by the way.

I am no Zionist.

What is most remarkable about this discussion is that high praise was heaped on a die-hard Nazi sympathiser and collaborator.............Russell.

NO ONE OBJECTED!!

Not even the self-styled experts who seem to be able to spot Fascists everywhere.......except in their own back yards.

.

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If you really want to rake over the coals in order to aid the obfuscation of the slaughter in Gaza why don't you drag up Zionist collaboration by Yitzhak Shamir, Avram Stern and others with the Nazis while the holocaust was going on!

Generally I think Russell has been adequately discussed over many years in this forum, and his behaviour hardly bares comparison with the founders of the state of Israel!

What a pedigree!

This being said what is at issue here is the behaviour of the state of Israel and the obfuscation of that behaviour by the Israeli propaganda machine including Mr Evrony and Mr. Shatter as their proxy.

Again Mr. Shatter is more excercised by the plight of animals than he is by that of the Palestinians.

One might infer from this, in the absence of statements from him to the contrary, that he regards innocent Palestinian women and children as being less than animals?

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I didn't see any praise for Russell, just statements of fact about what his affiliations and activities were.

Of course if your aim was to further obfuscate Israeli war crimes in Gaza and limit the backlash ...

"Methinks [you] protest too much"

author by Dáilwatchpublication date Sat Jan 17, 2009 14:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Transcript of the Committee debate available here:
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=FOJ20090113...H3#H3

author by redjadepublication date Sat Jan 17, 2009 15:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

''I ask Deputy Shatter, who spoke about the relationship between Sinn Féin and violent groups, to reflect on his relationship with one of the most violent states in the world. He could do much more to appeal to that country to end its violence. The arrogance of the Israeli ambassador and Deputy Shatter seems to know no bounds. The comments they have made at today’s meeting are a form of propaganda. Goebbels would have been proud of the twisted logic and half-truths to which they have exposed this committee. I do not say that lightly. They are trying to justify the unjustifiable, which is what Goebbels and his colleagues tried to do during the Holocaust. What we have heard today-----''

http://tinyurl.com/8clk29

author by dissidentpublication date Sat Jan 17, 2009 15:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Instead of just calling for the eviction of the Israeli ambassador we should call for the IDF to be classified as a terrorist organization as well. IMO the only difference between the Zionists and Nazis is that the Zionists burn people instead of gassing them.

author by Bullshit detectorpublication date Sat Jan 17, 2009 17:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Keep Russell out of this discussion. His behaviour was disgraceful and had he been Belgian or French he would have been executed as a collaborator. He enjoyed diplomatic status in the capital of the Reich, while Germany had conquered Poland, Norway, France and Belgium. He offered to help German troops land in Ireland-do you think they would have left after they beat the Brits? This is all on record, in the United Irishman of 1951 when Russell's statue went up. Read what the IRA was saying in 1940, welcoming the Germans as 'liberators.' And An Phoblacht had been condemning the Nazis as butchers in 1934 and talking about concentration camps so they 'didn't know' about what the Nazis were doing my arse. Not the IRA's finest hour.

author by redjadepublication date Sat Jan 17, 2009 18:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

My only problem with Aengus' speech is that it violates Godwin's Law - which usually means you lose the debate by bringing up Nazis or Hitler (or Goebbels) first. But was he the first to violate it in the debate? This would be interesting to see.

Godwin's Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law


Robert Fisk had a an interesting essay on January 17th regarding pro-Palestine rhetoric....

'....the real reason why "Gaza-Genocide" is a dangerous parallel is because it is not true. Gaza's one and a half million refugees are treated outrageously enough, but they are not being herded into gas chambers or forced on death marches. [....] What this is really about is international law. It's about accountability. It's about justice – something the Palestinians have never received – and it's about bringing criminals to trial. Arab war criminals, Israeli war criminals – the whole lot. And don't say it cannot be done. Wasn't that the message behind the Yugoslav tribunal? Didn't some of the murderers get their just deserts? Just leave the Second World War out of it.'
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/....html


In addition, the pro-Palestine rhetoric gets to such a heated level that it abuses and burns out the language so when something worse happens later, it makes the current horrible crimes seem like a 'norm' to compare it to. How much more outrage can be offered when Israel kills 50 kids tomorrow, when they killed 40 today?

Screaming 'Nazi!' or 'Fascist!' repeatedly doesn't explain how we got here or how to stop it.

The purpose of such rhetoric is to provoke - and it certainly does that.

In the following video, note the statement that is made by the graffiti artist is not that Israel is a Nazi country. The statement is the '???' - the question marks.

In this case, a question is more powerful and informative than the answer.

video: http://blip.tv/file/1647161

Orignially found at http://hamishcampbell.com/

me blogishness here: http://LMV.hu/redjade


To stop your IP being automatically logged by the provider of the (Blip.tv) video content, we have not loaded it automatically. If you wish to proceed to watch the video, then please Click here to load the embedded video player for video Id grFc5Ydpg7Iw%2Em4v


This setting can be controlled by your User Preference settings.


author by Vincentpublication date Sat Jan 17, 2009 20:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The so called Godwins Law is actually a theory. So its not a law that can be violated, it is supposed to be a phenomenon that has come to be understood on how debates inevitably die without proper resolution if they are not resloved efficiently in the earliest possible phase. The descent into the traditionally unspeakable horrors of the Holocaust over some trivial manner obvioulsy indicates that the argument has gone on for too long and the protagonists have missed the opportunity for resolution.
Godwin's Law is not applicable to realtime events that evolve, unrestricted by the structures of the debate. In this case asking if the action in Gaza is Nazi-like, will have no effect on the unfolding events contrary to the political hope that somehow the Zionist regime can be shamed into compliance with International Law by waving the Swastika in their face. Events will continue to evolve and possibly become more horrific and deadly regardless. If it gets to the point where we have massacres in the streets by machine gun fire of large groups of refugees in their hundreds, should we recoil if the language used to describe them evokes Naziism. If we have grenade massacres of trapped civilians in basements, the rounding up of people hiding in basements to be trotted off to a dark place which will later be blitzed with phosphorous to destroy the evidence, if we have emaciated children hiding in cubby holes beside their dead parents as Israeli Soldiers go door to door looking for survivors to kill, should we worry about the effect that evoking Nazism might have on how we will be able to describe something even worse.
Even the Nazis didnt know how evil the Nazis would be when they emabarked upon their journey to epic national realisation. We, with the benefit of hindsight, can see that atrocities snowball and the Genocide-Genie can often not be put back in the lamp once it has been released. We may have hindsight but we were never renowned for our wisdom and to say that their is no conventional wisdom in relation to the unfolding events in Gaza is a truism.
If it comes to the stage when we all look back on Gaza and say for sure that you dont have to exterminate 6 million helpless people to be a Nazi, then a new conventional wisdom will have been born.

If it walks like a Nazi and quacks like a Nazi then take the safe option and treat it like a Nazi until you know better .

author by Smileypublication date Sat Jan 17, 2009 22:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In January 1976 the Provisional IRA stopped a bus full of workmen, forced them to line up by the roadside, ascertained who was Catholic and who was Protestant, told the Catholics to run off, and then shot dead ten men. This was a brutal sectarian massacre of civilians. But does it mean that the IRA were Nazis? Because the Nazis also lined people up and shot them. I would say no, theres no comparison in political terms. Just because people do horrible things doesn't mean that they are Nazis. Just as in Gaza now, while the Israelis are committing brutal acts and certainly war crimes, they are not Nazis. And throwing the term around just robs it of its historical validity. It is also used in the current context just to wind up the Israelis, because it compares them to their worst enemies. But it is offensive to all Jews, not just Israelis or Zionists. So cop on.

author by Diarmuidpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 01:54author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Let's stick to the issue here, which is not about the past actions of the Provisional IRA or of a pre-PIRA IRA leader.
Ó Snodaigh compared the the comments of the Israeli Ambassador (and perhaps he had in mind also their media management) with the activiities of the Nazi propaganda chief Goebbels. Many people think that is fair comment, particularly with regard to the latter's use of the "big enough lie" "repeated often enough".

Fisk, an opponent of the behaviour of the Israeli Zionist state towards the Palestinians, nevertheless took exception to their behaviour being compared to that of the Nazis because the Israelis haven't used gas ovens. That is true but is no reason why their behaviour in so many other ways can't be legitimately compared to that of the Nazis and in fact the parallels are remarkable. The Times article was clearly slanted towards Shatter and towards the Israeli Embassy, whatever one thinks of Ó Snodaigh or of Sinn Féin.

Kevin Myers, whom commentator O'Hara (above) states he agrees with, says, after listing some of his problems with the Israeli state (including that it was set up by terrorists):
"Yet if I wanted to be an Arab anywhere today, why, it'd be in Israel, where I could be a male homosexual without being stoned to death, where I could drink alcohol in peace, where I'd have the vote and full freedom of speech, and where honour killings are totally outlawed (unlike in any of the Arab states near Israel). Indeed, the only real reservation I would have about being an Israeli Arab is that I might be killed by a Hamas suicide bomber. Which would, of course, according to the Andrews/O Snodaigh perspective, be Israel's fault. "

While Myers may well be entitled to attack the policies of the states he mentions with regard to homosexuality, 'honour killings' and alcohol (pace the West's attitude to hashish), he cannot with any justification claim that "full freedom of speech" exists for Palestinians under Israeli rule. The claim that they "have the vote" is even more bizarre, given that their use of the vote to elect Hamas in Gaza was the precise reason for Israel's strangling blockade of Gaza, along with that of the EU and other bodies and, ultimately, Israel's reason for their bombardment and invasion.

But even if all that were not true, and if Myers were right about how wonderful it is to be a Palestinian under Israeli rule, and if Ó Snodaigh's comments were untrue or unfair -- how does any of that justify the truly appalling slaughter and other things that Israel has done to the ordinary people of Gaza in the past few weeks? I wouldn't have thought Myers was a fascist (as one commentator called him) but if he is seeking to justify those actions he is surely quite a way down the road to being one.

author by Napper Tandy - Trinity College Dublinpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 02:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What ignorance ! The Nazis did not use "gas ovens" ! They gassed six million people and burned their remains in ovens. Please be correct and precise in future. The Irish should learn how to use English properly !

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:25author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The parallels between German and Israeli propaganda is very striking if you care to read it.

I came across this essay by Goebbels which contains a reference to Shatter (as in glass, not the protector of small animals and apologist for Israeli butchery we have in our parliament) which is interesting in terms of the way he attempts to justify the German campaign of terror conducted in the form of an air-war against the British civilian population.

"Terror can be broken only by terror. Weakness only encourages and strengthens it. Terror and counter-terror cost lives, but in numbers far lower than would be the case if one gave in. Only force defeats force."

"We must therefore defend ourselves against his methods of warfare. Since we are determined to use the same brutal methods he is using to terrorize our civilian population, he will fail. His air war is above all a war of nerves. He is trying to shatter the morale of the civilian population in the areas subject to bombing. He does not care if it costs him more than it costs us. He is making an attempt that will that will fail in the same way as his other attempts. The sacrifices we must make will one day be rewarded. We have no choice but to accept them, and to repay them in kind as our world-wide war effort permits."

"The victims in England can complain to the source of their troubles very easily: Mr. Churchill (Hamas)."

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb9.htm

The line of reasoning and justification for the German terror campaign are strikingly familiar as is the rhetoric in its similarity to that of Mark Regev.

It must have holocaust victims spinning in their graves when they hear this kind of language from their heirs.

The final proverb is prophetic as it might well sum up Hamas' position at the end of the capmaign of Israeli butchery conducted against the civilians of Gaza.

"Here, too, the old proverb is true: That which does not destroy us makes us stronger."

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If all else fails accuse people who don't agree with the Israeli campaign of ethnic cleansing, murder and terror against the entire population of Gaza of being anti-semites.

This is the refuge of the liar and the coward.

author by anti-everythingpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

How many of indymedia activists asked for the expulsion of the US/K embassies?
How many SF/RIRA/PIRA/Eirigi rubbed hands with Tony blair the leader of the quartet?
How many SF counsellors supported rendition through silence?
How many indywriter's encourage anti-semitism through irresponsible word usage
and lack of neutral reportage?

is Ireland anti-semitic- yes I think so 'cos Incitement to violence begins with re-branding the
toxic symbols of the Third Reich- Bravo!

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Mark Regev has just been on Newstalk claiming that it's all Hamas' fault and that Gazan civilians were killed by Hamas mortar and bazooka fire.

How convenient.

How predictable.

If it acts like a duck and it quacks like a duck ...

author by southern comfort - Judean Peoples' southern frontpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 13:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

" They are trying to justify the unjustifiable, which is what Goebbels and his colleagues tried to do during the Holocaust. "

Sorry Aengus, but Goebbels did not try to justify the holocaust. The Nazis kept very quiet about it and tried to conceal it.

It was a ridiculous, rude, insensitive and inaccurate comment.

I am in favour of a Palestinian state, of whatever size, but the real question is for Israelis and their US supporters - what sort of future do you want? If you drive a people to the brink you can expect trouble from their children.

Europe and the USA need to offer peacekeeping troops and intervene strongly to get it right, or we will see this tragedy repeated again and again. And both sides expect us to pay for the damage.....

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 15:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

You're wrong in this instance Goebbels made a specific threat to exterminate Jews in his letter to the English in 1943:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb9.htm

"It would do the Jewish press in New York and London too much honor to give any attention to their bloodthirsty commentaries on the air war and the war of nerves.

They will have to pay for it with the extermination of their race in Europe, and perhaps far beyond.

They are not to be taken seriously, for they represent their own interests, not those of England or America."

author by Vincentpublication date Sun Jan 18, 2009 20:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To answer Smiley,

-- " In January 1976 the Provisional IRA stopped a bus full of workmen, forced them to line up by the roadside, ascertained who was Catholic and who was Protestant, told the Catholics to run off, and then shot dead ten men. This was a brutal sectarian massacre of civilians. But does it mean that the IRA were Nazis? " ---

Taken literally? the IRA are Nazis. They are staunch Nationlist with a political wing that espouses a left wing ideology. So they are Nationalist Socialists and thats what the Nazis were, supposedly. But its not the colour of their politics that we are talking about, it's the evil acts. So we must accept now that the term "Nazi" has lost it's political connotations and is always used to describe the perpetrators of the Jewish Holocaust. Some people now believe that nothing short of a similar attempted genocide should evoke the terminology of Nazism.
Personally, I find it easy to agree that the IRA act that you recall is certainly Nazi-like. In this evil act of singling out people at the side of the road for immediate termination. Yes, absolutely Nazi-like.
In Gaza, when the Israeli army herded the Samouni family into the warehouse in Zeitoun then bombed it , then stopped the ambulances getting there, then shot at ambulance men who came to take the emaciated infants from beside their mother's corpses - Do I have a problem in saying that this evil deed was Nazi-like ? Absolutely not - Complete evil, just like the Nazis.
It quickly becomes obviuos that there are deeds being carried out all over the world everyday that are Nazi-like for the mere reason that they are similarly evil. So for what purpose or occasion should we reserve the Nazi terminology for in order that we do not cheapen the currency by which we describe genocidal evil ? Surely it must be when the perpetrators of the evil act are in a position of power such that the escalation of these evil deeds is beyond outside control and enjoys widescale appeasement and when the perpetrators have the sufficient resources and manpower to start to conduct these massacres on a widespread coordinated basis.
When such circumstances align today I see no reason to back away from highlighting the similarities between such a situation and that of the Nazi crimes other than to avoid upsetting the Jews, because it happens to be Israel that has triggered the worry of onlookers in on this particular occasion.

Waiting until we have the grisly proof that a systematic mass murdering of civilians was being carried out in Gaza or anywhere before we evoke memories of the Nazis is plain stupidity and makes a treachorous lie out of the phrase "Never Again".

The actions of Israel in Gaza are absolutely Nazi-like and we should remain extremely vigilant until this is over and the war criminals are safe behind bars. We look to the UN to ensure that they have learned from the Nazis also and that the Palestinians do not have to pay the price for their shortcomings.

author by ur UNEDUCATEDpublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 00:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Oh my gosh I read some of the above.How would a nation founded after the slaughter of 6 million Jews,be a Nazi country.Calling a Jew a Nazi is sick.Its twisted.Holocaust Memorial Day is coming up this month.

To compare Israelis to Nazis is horrible.
The fact you do.Shows a total lack od Education.
Has Israel rounded up Palestinans and put them into trains.Has Israeli Prime Ministers said lets wipe Arabs off the map.

Israel is defending herself.Against a terrorist group.Of Course all the Sinn Fein Activists here.See Hamas as legit.They would.
Calling an Irish Jew is sick.Did anybody see the program on RTE about the Irish Jew.Who was held in Beslan.

Did none of you see Schindlers list.Or read Anne Frank.The IDf and the Nazis are totally different groups.

The fact is you dont want an Israeli state.You want Israel gone.That says it all.Shame on you.

And the burning of Israeli flags in Ireland.Can you imagine if British people who had suffered the IRA terrorist attaCks burnt the Tri Colour.Imagine seeing those images.

Hamas persecutes Gaza Christians and liberal Muslims.HaMas is no friend of Gaza or the Palestinans.

author by vivospecialpublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 04:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

i am shocked at the level of abuse given to sinn fein, and its followers, and at just how quick the topic of conversation changes, that fact that the people who disagree wit the opinion expressed resort to atacking his party and events his party undertook years ago does not mean you have sucessfuly rertorted the claims of similarties with the nazi administration, all it means is that you have lost any arguement and lack any evidence which suggests you will believe anything, the fact that such an article could be published is also reminicent of the unfortunate atitude of many irish people who refuse to believe in their own history and believe somehow atrocities were not commited on this soil, the irish shuold be strong supporters of the palestians as we shuold be able to perfectly understand their plight through our understanding of out history, but many sadly are afraid nowdays to say what happened, for fear and ignorance. it seems tha tour ppl believe to much in what the news of our neighbours and our country tells us.

many died to be free for this country and we forget about them cause we have more of this and more of that, marks and spencer , debinams tesco, sky, and we are to content to forget about what is goin on in other countries, a disgrace it is.

propaganda is killin this country, and destroying out ability to empatise with people in need, if only we had a president like chavez who atleast will stand up against opression, but if we are to believe many western media, he is destroying his country,

come on ireland get back your rebel nature, we look like a bunch of yes men,

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 09:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What is at issue here is the behaviour of Israel and its apologists.

In the face of Israeli brutality the international community showed itself to be as effective as Chamberlain was in Munich in 1938.

The UN and its mandates were ignored by Israel as they continued slaughtering Gazan civilians and deliberately targeting UN facilities on multiple occaisions killing civilians within them despite having trained for the attacks for 9 months.

Aenghus O'Snodaigh did not call Jews Nazis and neither did anybody else.

In any case any such posts are removed promptly by the Indymedia moderators.

What he did say after provocation from Alan Shatter about Sinn Fein contacts with national liberation movements including Hamas was that Goebbels would have been proud of the propaganda, lies and half-truths about Hamas being pedaled by the Israeli ambassador and Alan Shatter in order to limit the backlast against Israels bloody reprisals which saw 100 Palestinians butchered for every Israeli killed.

I pointed to an article by Goebbels which used exactly the same kind of language and justification for the Nazi campaign of air-terror waged against the British civilian population.

If you care to read it you will see the similarity in terms of language.

Deal with it.

On the subject of holocaust memorial day happening later this month I would remind you that the Israelis chose to launch their bloody reprisals against the entire civilian population of Gaza at this time.

Trying to turn this around and blame others for the timing is simply daft.

In fact if anything the timing might have been chosen by the Israelis not just on the cusp of the Obama presidency, but also to maximise the "sympathy vote" by having the attacks close to the holocaust memorial day.

I also saw the documentary on the Belsen survivor which was shown on tv TWICE this week, in addition to the Anne Frank series on BBC.

Despite the words of the Belsen survivor that the holocaust should never be repeated there was no mention of the genocidal activities of Pol Pot, the Serbians or Rwandans to name but a few.

So much for forgetting the past condemning you to repeat it.

As for burning flags this is a common form of political protest and doesn't single out Israel in any way for special attention.

If you actually had any knowledge of Ireland you would realise that the tricolour and effigies of the Pope are burned regularly in the north without it becoming an international incident.

Hamas does not persecute Christians and there is a catholic church in Gaza city, who's parish priest has been very outspoken in his criticism of Israeli attacks on civilians.

Finally calling others retards and uneducated while your own post is littered with orthographical, grammatical, punctuation and factual errors is frankly laughable and beneath contempt!

author by IMC Readerpublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Whilst I agree with the general sentiment of the article (and the idiocy that often goes with Alan Shatter), I could not help think of the saying 'Dont throw stones in glass houses'.

As a regular IMC reader it never ceases to amaze me how some left wing groups persist with absolute non sensical news reporting. The WSM, SWP are the first two groups that come to mind but it certainly extends beyond this.

What counts as bias, propoganda and lies is a problem for everyone not just the Irish Times.

author by krossie - wsm personal capacitypublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 14:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

IMC reader: As a regular IMC reader it never ceases to amaze me how some left wing groups persist with absolute non sensical news reporting. The WSM, SWP are the first two groups that come to mind but it certainly extends beyond this.

All and media are biased – the WSM and SWP however openly and proudly state what their biases are – which is the most that can be hoped for in my view…

Ur UNEDUCATED: The fact you do.Shows a total lack od Education.

I’ll just leave that one stand on its own merits quite funny!

The fact is you dont want an Israeli state.You want Israel gone.That says it all.Shame on you.

I haven’t seen any contributor to this miserably descending debate actually say such a thing!

Therefore its not a fact just a straw man version of your opponent's thoughts plucked from your own head as opposed to addressing actual arguments you obviously haven't the time or inclination or ability to actually address...

krossie

author by redjadepublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 15:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

''Last Tuesday, Sinn Fein TD Aengus O Snodaigh, speaking at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, uttered an outrageous slur on my country. In drawing an analogy between my earlier presentation to the committee and the genocidal propaganda of Goebbels, Mr O Snodaigh reflected a prejudice founded on the deep lack of understanding in the minds of some Irish people regarding the history of Europe and the Middle East, in particular the history and policies of Israel.

How did Mr O Snodaigh come to feel it appropriate to voice such a despicable remark? For deep-seated prejudice to reach the light of day, a favourable ideological climate must first be created. A week earlier, Fintan O'Toole, writing in his Irish Times column, had taken the serious step of drawing a moral equivalence between Israel's military operation of self-defence against Hamas terrorism in the Gaza Strip and the genocidal policies of the Nazi regime. In my reply in the same paper a few days later, I pointed out the many facts regarding Israel's policies that contradicted his offensive falsehood.

It was predictable that others would jump into the breach created by Mr O'Toole; hence Mr O Snodaigh's outburst came as no surprise....'

• more at http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/weve-b....html

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 16:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors

O'Snodaighs remarks were clearly directed at both Evrony and Shatter in person contrary to what Evrony is claiming in the Independent.

"'The arrogance of the Israeli ambassador and Deputy Shatter seems to know no bounds.

The comments they [Evrony & Shatter] have made at today’s meeting are a form of propaganda.

Goebbels would have been proud of the twisted logic and half-truths to which they [Evrony & Shatter] have exposed this committee.

I do not say that lightly.

They [Evrony & Shatter] are trying to justify the unjustifiable, which is what Goebbels and his colleagues tried to do during the Holocaust."

This ritual indignation is typical of the Israelis and is often aimed at hiding the false claims, abuses and crimes carried out by the state of Israel as reported by Robert Fisk in the UK Independent newspaper.

author by Vincentpublication date Mon Jan 19, 2009 16:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

From the Letter by Zion Evrony:

" In his latest column, Mr O'Toole has argued himself into a blind alley in which moral distinctions between attacker and attacked are obliterated, the issues of a conflict do not matter and standing up for the right of self-defence involves "justifying atrocities". "

Perhaps if the whole sordid event was about self-defence or such like, then Evrony's words in defence of the atrocities would carry even an ounce of weight. But right now is the time when we should remind ourselves and others, what the actual purpose behind the bombing campaign in Gaza actually was. The elections !

This article was on the front page last night but by this morning had slipped unusually quickly into the background. Perhaps somebody felt sudden shame and hid the ghoulish article away. But once we accept that this is the main purpose for Israel hitting Gaza in the way that they did, when they did, then the frightening subhuman cynicism behind these people deaths and suffering is all that should be discussed. Who are the main criminals, what is the extent of their crimes and which country leaders were complicit. These atrocities have left the UN bleeding to death and based on its performance in protecting the Palestinians and in sticking up for itself , it might be better off dead.

These are the burning issue that arise from this rubble and NOT whether Israel has the right to deploy mass murder as a form of self defense. That line of discussion is a complete red herring cooked up for gullible tools and useful fools.

Front page, Ynet Last night. ---- PARTIES REIGNITE ELECTION CAMPAIGN. ------

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3658381,00.html

BARAK'S BLURB : Should the ceasefire prove viable, the party will relaunch its election bid, which focuses on party Chairman Ehud Barak's integrity and his ability to make the right decisions in a time of crisis.

LIVNI'S LIES : "Israel just wrapped up a three-week military campaign, during which it operated freely. The war ended with world leaders coming here to show their support for Israel… These diplomatic achievements are Livni's and we will make sure the public understands that."

BIBI'S BULL : The second phase of the Likud's campaign stands to focus on Kadima Chairwoman Tzipi Livni's shortcomings as a leader, as demonstrated – according to the party – during Operation Cast Lead. "The less credit she gets the more Netanyahu is likely to win," said a source in the party.

author by XITpublication date Tue Jan 20, 2009 16:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

All and media are biased – the WSM and SWP however openly and proudly state what their biases are – which is the most that can be hoped for in my view…

Krossie has a good point there. People generally know what they're getting when they read an article on Indymedia, whereas the great newspapers of our nation present themselves as being neutral and above politics.

If mainstream newspapers practiced the openness that Indymedia contributors tend to do, we would see the following: "The Irish Times - edited by former Progressive Democrat TD, Geraldine Kennedy." Or: "Stephen Collins, Political Editor - wrote a book about the PDs which was included by the party in its 2007 election literature".

Half the newspapers in the country would need a note at the top of all stories relating to offshore gas and the Corrib controversy, saying: "Owned by AJF O'Reilly, who has a direct personal financial interest in Corrib gas being processed inland rather than offshore."

Indymedia tends to be described in the mainstream press as a left-wing website. In fact, there is a fair amount of right-wing content in the comment section.

author by gazasympathiserpublication date Wed Jan 21, 2009 14:55author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Xenophobic graffiti daubed by Israeli rabble in Gaza in the rubble of destroyed Palestinian homes:

"But most disturbing of all was the graffiti they daubed on the walls of the ground floor.

Some was in Hebrew, but much was naively written in English:

"Arabs need 2 die",

"Die you all",

"Make war not peace",

"1 is down, 999,999 to go",

and scrawled on an image of a gravestone the words:

"Arabs 1948-2009".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/gaza-israel...amily

author by dunkpublication date Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Today with Pat Kenny - Gaza / Israel
Pat talks to Anghus O'Snodaigh Sinn Fein, Alan Shatter Fine Gael and Thomas Carew, Chair of Ireland Israel Friendship League

from Pat Kenny radio archive
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_patkenny.xml


Embedded audio: http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-200109-33m23s-todaypatkenny.mp3

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