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Pressure forces Luas to cancel deal with illegal Israeli tramline

category dublin | anti-war / imperialism | feature author Saturday August 19, 2006 22:26author by Hugh H - IPSC Report this post to the editors

featured image
Highway to hell?

The Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC) won a small but significant victory in the international struggle against Connex and the illegal Israeli tramline being built by them on occupied Palestinian territory.

Connex (who in Ireland now operate under the name Veolia) also run the “Luas”, Dublin’s light-rail system. The Luas has only been running for a few years and it is likely that the tramline currently being built by Connex in occupied East Jerusalem is a near identical system. For this reason, representatives from Israel had been in negotiations with Veolia Ireland to have Israeli engineers and drivers trained on the Dublin Luas, with a view to then operating the illegal tramline in Jerusalem. The training was due to begin next month, and a contract was being finalised.

But in recent days, Veolia has been forced to cancel the proposed deal with its Israeli counterpart following pressure from Irish trade union representatives, in turn responding to overtures from the IPSC.

An IPSC spokesperson stated: “This is a small but significant victory for the Palestinian right to self-determination. This tramline, like the Apartheid Wall, is an integral component of Israel’s annexation of East Jerusalem. You would expect a tramline to be fairly innocuous, but the lesson is no: when you do business with Israel, you invariably do business with the Occupation. Veolia clearly understand that there is a growing awareness of this within Irish society. People are realising that diplomacy has utterly failed to curb Israeli crimes. We must cut ties with Israel in order to force it to end its Occupation,”

The spokesperson further stated, “Veolia’s position, however, is extraordinary. In cancelling this contract, Veolia acknowledge that the Israeli line is illegal and unsupportable. Yet it is they who are building it! The hypocrisy is inexcusable, and their attempts to deny that they bowed to pressure are laughable. Since the Minister for Transport and the Railway Procurement Agency have ultimate control over who runs the Luas, the IPSC now calls on Martin Cullen and the RPA to cancel Veolia’s contract unless they cease building this illegal tramline on occupied Palestinian territory.”

The tramline being built by Connex/Veolia will run between Israeli settlements in occupied East Jerusalem. The settlements, which have been built on annexed Palestinian land, are illegal under the 4th Geneva Convention, and are recognised as such by the Irish government. If completed, the Israeli tramline will permanently link Jewish-only settlements such as Pisgat Ze’ev, French Hill, Neve Ya’akov and Gilo, to Israeli West Jerusalem, thereby cementing Israel’s hold on occupied East Jerusalem, and ensuring that there can never be a Palestinian state.

The IPSC had initially learned that a delegation from Israel was in Dublin last month to inspect the Luas. Subsequently, it has emeged that Veolia have hosted three Israeli visits to Dublin in the last eighteen months. The IPSC will ensure that there will be no further cooperation between the Dublin Luas and the Jerusalem tram, and indeed we will step up our campaign for the Irish government to cancel Veolia’s contract. However, the IPSC would also stress that we were completely unaware of the previous two visits from Israel. We thus urge solidarity campaigns, in countries where Connex operates, to contact the relevant unions and determine whether any support or assistance is being given to the Israeli tramline. Clearly, the Israeli drivers and engineers must get training from somewhere, and soon, if they are to operate this line in occupied East Jerusalem. This campaign thus has great potential. If human rights groups and Palestinian solidarity campaigns can ensure that no country will train Israeli engineers and drivers, then perhaps we can help to “derail” this criminal project entirely.

Some information on Israel’s illegal tramline and Connex’s role in building it:

War on Want report (see pages 10 and 11 ): here

Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Group report (see pages 42 and 43): http://www.euromedrights.net/english/emhrn-documents/co...G.pdf

Related Link: http://www.ipsc.ie
author by DMpublication date Sat Aug 19, 2006 01:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The irish times today said that IPSC said it was because of trade union pressure but apperantly the Spokesperson for the company said it was for technical reasons. I think i'll side with IPSC. It's great it got in the Irish Times though.

author by Anthonypublication date Sat Aug 19, 2006 23:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

as pointed out earlier by Jac in the Other Press category

Related Link: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5573.shtml
author by Michael Martin - HLFpublication date Sun Aug 20, 2006 14:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Opposition to the light rail system in Jerusalem is yet an other classic example for leftwing stupidity . An efficient public transport system, whether in Dublin, Jerusalem or elsewhere, will help to reduce the number of cars on our roads and therefore contribute towards a cleaner, healthier and greener environment. Moslems and Jews alike would have been benefitting from such a project in Jerusalem. But yet again, environmental considerations have been sacrificed to the great god of political correctness! I am not exactly a fan of Israeli politics, but it's sad (but not really surprising) to see Irish trade unions caving in to foreign pressure groups operating in Dublin who constantly camouflage, white-wash and glorify brutal terror carried out in the name of their religion and nation against Israeli women and children. Placing bombs near bus stops, schools, in restaurants and nightclubs has nothing whatsoever to do with "liberation struggle"!
Indeed, it was a sad day for all environmentalists and freedom loving and upholding citizens, regardless of nationality, ethnic background or religious affiliation, when Irish trade unions decided to surrender to terrorist demands! And shame on you SWP types who constantly applaud and advocate this vile hypocrisy!

Michael Martin

author by MichaelY - iawmpublication date Sun Aug 20, 2006 15:04author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Foreign pressure groups operating in Dublin who constantly camouflage, white-wash and glorify brutal terror carried out in the name of their religion and nation"

When was it that nearly 1,500 civilians were massacred by the Israeli invasion of an independent country? Is it already past history and collateral damage?
Is it not part of terror to try to build illegal settlements and now rail systems on Palestinian land occupied illegally?
And now Israel with its cluster bombs and depleted uranium coated bullets ad the huge oil spill they engendered is portrayed as an environmentally friendly outfit?
And the Irish Government having allowed Apache helicopters to fly to Israel from Shannon we have to be hoodwinked to help them expand their occupation further?
So, who is it exactly that constantly camouflages, white washes and glorifies brutal terror? Is it perhaps the 2,000 plus Israeli students who have been told and are being paid to come to every portal, blog and chat show and argue their expansionist line?

And MM as a name? The great grandson of the boss who was one of the main causes of the 1913 lockout? Or the fella who dreams of becoming Taoiseach from the independent republic?

Give us a break....

author by Israeli studentpublication date Sun Aug 20, 2006 15:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

We do it voluntarily. No one pays us for it.

author by Ali H.publication date Sun Aug 20, 2006 16:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Yeahright they don't pay you?

Not even in terms of scholarships, bursaries, research funding for holocaust releated research etc.???

I suppose you'd have usbelieve this software was developed for free also?

"On Massively Multiplayer Propaganda...

Posted August 8, 2006 5:18 PM.

Simon drew my attention to a site called GIYUS.org the other day and it's been in my thoughts ever since, and I've come to think of it as a really troubling kind of troll-supporting political malware, representing a technologically-empowered massively-distributed form of propoganda that I've never seen before. The site's full name is Give Israel Your United Support and it works like this - individuals download a tool (the Megaphone Desktop Tool) which then alerts people to new articles and polls around the web that question Israel's policies in the Middle East or ask for public opinion about them. The people concerned are then supposed to visit the site directly and respond to the poll or story or write an e-mail or whatever.

The reason for this activity? Stated at the top of the page, "Today's conflicts are won by public opinion. Now is the time to be active and voice Israel's side to the world." The software is designed to do two things - firstly to make it clear that there's a large active pro-Israel population in the world, but also it's there to make sure that the pro-Israel point of view is over-represented in the popular media. These are - let me repeat - the project's stated goals.

Now I want to make it very clear here very early on that I'm not going to be making an anti-Israeli tract. It's pretty much irrelevant to me who is using this particular tool - just that the tool exists. Or more specifically - since there's no way to put the genie back in the bottle - that tools like this exist and will continue to exist from now on as ways to attempt to deform the social discourse - whether that be for Democrats, Republicans, Israelis, Iraqis, Americans, Conservatives. This should be troubling to all of us, although I'm not sure that there's very much we can do about it.

The short term consequence will be that all large scale public discussions and polls on the internet will become highly suspect - none of these groups are set up to deal with this kind of political spam yet. And that has to heavily affect the ability of organisations that deal with feedback from their audiences to do so fairly or to respond to a real constituency rather than just innumerable interest groups. This is, in effect, a way of harnessing hundreds of thousands of people to massage the public debate - the massively distributed conversation of the internet now has a form of PR - a form of propoganda - to match.

In substance, of course, there is little that has changed here - politicians and religious groups have always wanted to get out their vocal supporters, they've always wanted to move public opinion and help people spread the word. And they've used all kinds of techniques to do it - right back to the simple letter-writing campaign. And it's far from the first time that new communicative, democratising technologies have been co-opted or bought ought by organisations who believe that they have to - or simply wish to - take every advantage they possibly can to win, even if it devalues the environment for all in the process. But it's still something to be pointed towards with anxiety, to be acknowledged as it is recognised - if only so we can mourn the passing of a particular open spirit as the gamers and the trolls colonise the public spaces and set-up shop. We can expect to see this kind of campaigning tool being used in the next US elections I should think, and who knows - perhaps people I know, people like me, will feel they need to use them to see the change they want in the world, or to fight fire with fire.

Of course there is another way this could end. Because a tool that alerts people to points of debate around Israel isn't only useful to Israelis, any more than a tool that alerts the Green lobby to big issues is of use only to environmental activists. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the same tools exposing the same data being co-opted by the direct opponents of the various groups that set them up. Each poll or news article may become nothing more than flashpoint fights between radicals of every persuasion in which the quieter, more average voices get completely drowned out. So there you have it - flashpoints of argument, massively multiplayer campaigning and propoganda techniques, the loss of the common voice and a scouring of the commons. So much for a democratising medium..."

Related Link: http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/2006/08/on_massively_multiplayer_propaganda/
author by Ali H.publication date Sun Aug 20, 2006 17:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

he following letter was sent by Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs to a variety of pro-Israel organisations, so-called 'hasbara'-groups and other supporters of Israel.

Dear friends,

Many of us recognize the importance of the Internet as the new battleground for Israel's image. It's time to do it better, and coordinate our on-line efforts on behalf of Israel. An Israeli software company have developed a free, safe and useful tool for us - the Internet Megaphone.

Please go to www.giyus.org, download the Megaphone, and you will receive daily updates with instant links to important internet polls, problematic articles that require a talk back, etc.

We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference. So, please distribute this mail to all Israel's supporters.

Do it now. For Israel.

Amir Gissin

Director Public Affairs (Hasbara) Department
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem

Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs understands that today's conflicts are won by public opinion. They mobilize pro-Israel activists to be active and voice "Israel's side to the world." The Megaphone desktop tool, built by Giyus, which means "mobilization", sends desktop alerts on key articles on Israel and surveys, online polls where activists could click on the button to support Israel and click alerts to easily voice pro-Israel opinions.

The tool tracks down online articles and polls that members should act upon. After installing the tool, members receive alerts on those articles. With this tool Israel's Foreign Ministry obviously thought it would help Israel's fight in cyberspace. However, having used this tool, for others, it is quit useful as well. There is also a weblog and a forum.

To download Megaphone Desktop Tool click here [*.exe file for Windows].

For non Windows users and others who would like to to track the alerts being posted via RSS or the Web, visit this page.

Amir Gissin's letter was posted on July 22 on the website of www.standwithus.com -- an pro-Israel advocacy organization.

Related Link: http://vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=node/1639
author by Omega supremepublication date Sun Aug 20, 2006 20:12author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Why does Israel condemn terriorism, when terrorism is what founded Israel?

Why do Israelis claim the right to a "Jewish state", when most ashkenazi Israelis hold dual nationality, and would scream murder if any European nation tried to introduce ethnic and/or religious dimensions to citizenship. (as Israel does)

Why should we trust Israeli reports and accountants when Israel has previously tried to commit terrorists attacks which would be blamed on Arabs? EG Attacks on British, American and French targets in Egypt carried out by mossad in the 1950's. Which were recently celebrated by the Israeli government and military.

Why should Irish people not be hostile to Israel, when mossad last year violated Irish soverignity and planned assinations on Irish territiory?

Why should Irish people not be hostile to Israel, when Israel supplied weapons to The UDA, UVF and Ulster Resistance, through the falangist militas in Lebannon?

Did Israel not encourage the setting up of Islamic terrorist groups such as Hamas, in order to divide the secular PLO and Baathist movements?

While I recognise the rights of all peoples to a homeland, and understand why Jews seek one in Palestine / Israel, do you not think the Palestinians are being reasonable in giving up the right of return to land they morally and legally own, in exchange for Israel pulling back to its 67 borders?

Finally I'd like to say this isn't anti-semitic among the greatest critics of Israel and Zionism are many Jews. That said I'm not even anti-zionist but belive Israel is unneccesarily brutal and unreasonable in the manner it conducts itself and its expectations, while still having a right to exist. Israel does have the right to defend itself from unprovoked attack, but Israel started this by shelling a Palestian family on a beach, when Hamas and the PLO were too busy fighting each other to fight Israel. Israel also does not only see fit to violate the rights of Palestine, but violates the soverignity of many other nations as well. Italy, The USA, Ireland, UK, Sweden, Denmark, Argentina all come to mind as countries from which Israel faced no threat but has violated the soverignity of.

author by Big Redpublication date Mon Aug 21, 2006 09:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

To Omega

I dont have the time to answer all your questions, but you seem to be a little confused about some of whats happening here in the middle east. Example; Israel was created by violence, you are right violance by all the arab countries attacking the new state of Israel in 1948 after the UN partitioned it between the muslims and jews which of course the arabs never ever agreed to it, like they owned the property here. Dont forgett what their leaders said, (recorded and saved) leave your homes, will kill all the jews than go back. Well they still waiting for that promise in the sky.
By the way, did you see the new hitler of the middle east announcing the same message (nasralla) to the arab israeli citizens of the town of Haifa to leave town, get out , will attack , than you can go back. Out of a few hundred thousand about 100 left to Jordan. There is nothing new under the sun in the middle east. The terrorist nazislamic groups must go, the same people who brought you the almost succesfull blowing up of 10 planes in flight, the same people who blowing up buses in England, the same that blowing up rail road cars in Spain the same terrorists that...... well do I have to go on and on?? Europe is in a deep coma, we can see it from here, you still dont get it, do you?? No, you dont.
Pitty. The riots in France is just a preview of whats planned for Europe. Killing in cold blood 350 little school children in Russia , does that tells you something? Or better start attacking Israel and help the radical nazislam gain ground because of people like you. Too bad.
You write: really Israel started this by blowing up a family on the beach. My dear Omega, you must get your facts straight. Thats got nothing to do with Lebanon , that was hundreds of miles away on the Gaza beach. True people died over there, too bad, but guess what? First the Palestinians claimed that Israel atatcked the family with an F-16??@@##$$?? See , a single family on the beach by themselves got attacked by an F-16. There were no other people hunders of yards away. Anyway the Palestinian authority claimed that thats what happened, too bad, one of the injured was treated in an Israeli hospital and lo and behold all the fragments removed from the injured person did not match anything from an F-16 weaponary. Nothing!!!!! Lets go back now to the beach, all and everything was super cleaned by the Palestinians, and I mean everything. When Israel asked for proof of an F-16 attack there was nothing they could prove, and I mean nothing!!! They would if they could now, would not they???? Now lets go back and see why they supercleaned the beach. Israel figures that they got blown up by a landmine that they put it there to stop an Israeli marine assault on the beach, which never happened either. The fragments found on the injured matched no metal used in the Israeli army navy or air force, nothing. Something else to think about, the little girl who was running around the sand and crying, we were told by the Palestinians that she survived cause she was in the water swimming and not near the family. Interestingly , she is completly bone dry, nothing wet from the ocean. Interestingly this was an empty beach, you can see it on the video and lo and behold there was a camera crew running with the child around shooting her. And look there is an ambulance waiting too. We have seen palestinians go to a mock funeral when the "dead " person fell off the strecher they were carrying him and guess what he gets up and jumps back on. I hope they showed this video in your area. Please dont believe the terrorists propaganda , Look there is peace between Israel and Egypt and Jordan, the radical terrorist Nazislam just can not swallow it, dont fall for them . How can you allow this cancer to spred all over Europe?? If you are not sorry now, you will be when its gonna be too late.
Greetings from Israel

author by sovereigntypublication date Tue Aug 22, 2006 03:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He spent the past month posting the vilest insults and threats towards Arabs and muslims on the website of the flattened town of Bint Jbeil in Lebanon . On a daily basis he was taunting the towns residents over the internet about the death and destruction the zionists were inflicting upon it . Obviously given the towns conditions the sites moderator was not able to keep the site up to date during the conflict but in recent days he has been banned for his hate and filth . Its quite likely now hes banned from there he may attempt to use this forum as a means to spew his hatred . Hes a total and utter bigot

author by Patricia Sullivanpublication date Tue Aug 22, 2006 08:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

He's a Bigot?, I've never seen such vile hatred coming from fellow Irishmen & women. The Israeli's are no wilting flower's when it comes to this war, and will have to answer for their actions, but I cant believe my eyes. That Irishmen & women would throw their Support to an Islamic hate group. They support no Womens rights, No education for Women, Honour killings of Women, Rape at will, Burkhas, Property rights, rights of inheritance denied to Women, right to even drive a motorcar, Sufferage, etc. Unbelievable, I'm ashamed - I thought we were supposed to be about free will, not intolerence.

author by Michael Martin - HLFpublication date Tue Aug 22, 2006 15:36author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The utter hypocrisy displayed by Ireland's collectivist extreme left is truly amazing. Here at home they stand for (or claim to do so in order to get a few more votes in the elections) sexual equalitiy, women's and gay/lesbian rights, or pro-choice in the abortion debate, etc.
But in the middle east they form alliances with those reactionary Islamic forces who display nothing but contempt for the rights and values western commies claim to uphold. Indeed, leftwing politics nowadays seems to be deeply rooted in schizophrenia!

Michael Martin

author by Martin Michaelpublication date Tue Aug 22, 2006 17:17author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Sit down and take a deep breath and stop frothing at the mouth, MM. You're embarassing yourself. Anyone with an IQ higher than room temperature can see that you can support the human rights of the Palestinian people without supporting attacks on Israeli civilians. Once the ridiculous premise of your posts (that anyone who criticise Israel is by definition a supporter of fundamentalist terrorists), your hot air can be seen for what it is. Come up with some proper arguments and you might be taken seriously.

author by Big Redpublication date Wed Aug 23, 2006 02:14author address author phone Report this post to the editors


What you see (on TV) is aint what you get.
Why dont you mention that the UN post was surounded by the hisballa terrorists aiming and sending missiles in to Israeli towns and when they were asked to move on they refused. Its the same story when they hide behind children and woman or sending Katyusa rockets from apartments or rooftops. If you dont shoot back you are dead, so what would you do??? Did those murderers warned Israeli villages to leave cause they going to send missiles? Of course not. Did Israel warned civilians?? You know the answer to that. Israel got hit with over 4000 missiles. We had much less casulties cause we built shelters into every building.
By the way I am not banned from anyplace. I am not anti Lebanese. I AM ANTI TERRORIST ARAB MUSLIM THUGHS.
I am againts those that aim and kill civilians, kill just for the sake of killing, like nasralla who is hiding in a rathole right now, he deserves it. State within a state, 2 armies in the same state, one is illegal, guess which one.
But it looks like that it will all come together soon.
Long Live Free Lebanon.
Free from syria, free from Iran, free from hisballa.
Give back Lebanon to the Lebanese!!!!!

Greetings from the Holy Land.

author by Big Redpublication date Wed Aug 23, 2006 02:27author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Michael and Patricia

Thanks for seeing strait and clear, no, nobody is an angel, but there must be a stop to this Radical Muslim Killing organizations. You dont have a choice but to hit back.
Whats blowing up planes killing civilians in buses or in the tube got to do with the "freedom fight" againts Israel. NOTHING.
Its a stupid idiotic excuse for killing murdering people all over the world.

Greetings from an ex Irish bar owner in NYC.

author by Ali H.publication date Wed Aug 23, 2006 15:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

1. The Palestinians have confined their attacks to the occupied territories in the past 20 years or so. Others who have an axe to grind with Israel an/or their Israeli proxy have chosen to take up the torch for their own reasons.

2. If enemies main paymaster is the US and you do not have overwhelming military advantage then you attack by whatever means possible in order to stop the US paying for Israels war on Muslims. This works if timed correctly as shown in the Spanish and Italian general elections where the vote was altered by attacks and governments withdrew their troops from Iraq.

3. If civilians get killed along the way so be it. After all the Israelis and US get away with all the time under the guise of collateral damage.

author by alipublication date Wed Aug 23, 2006 15:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

If civilians get killed along the way so be it. After all the Israelis and US get away with all the time under the guise of collateral damage.

ALI You joker, the thing is all they(those dodgy terrorists) do is target civilians, and the crap that the palestinians have only been active in the occupied territories is the biggest lie ive ever heard

How did the PLO manage to kill 40,000 people in Lebanon then? and throw the country into civil war? and all those planes they hijacked all over the world?

get outta here you joker, the palestinians have caused chaos and war where ever they went, be it Jordan, Lebanon --both their arab brothers threw them out on their ears

author by Ali H.publication date Wed Aug 23, 2006 15:35author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Obviously you lack basic arithmetic skills

"On June 6, 1982, under the direction of Defense Minister Ariel Sharon, Israel invaded Lebanon with a massive force, called Operation Peace for the Galilee, driving all the way to Beirut and putting the PLO fighters and residents, as well as the Lebanese civilian population of that city, under siege, forcing a PLO evacuation. Israel justified its breech of the cease-fire (negotiated by US Ambassador Philip Habib in 1981) by citing the attempted assassination of the Israeli ambassador in London, continuing PLO cross-border attacks on the Galilee settlements, and a build-up of PLO armaments and troops in South Lebanon.

After crossing into Lebanon, the IDF advanced along the shore, crossed the Awall River, went into Beirut, and then continued north through the Shouf Mountains along the flank of the main Syrian forces in the Beka'a Valley, threatening their rear as well as communications between Beirut and Damascus. As they captured PLO bases in southern Lebanon, the IDF found huge caches of weapons supplied from virtually every arms-dealing country in the world, including the US, Britain, China, France, Germany, Japan, Libya, the Soviet Union, Sweden, and Vietnam. The IDF captured rocket-launchers, cannon, anti-aircraft guns, tanks, and thousands and thousands of light arms and ammunition, enough to equip many brigades.

In August 1982, US Ambassador Philip Habib negotiated the withdrawal of Yaser Arafat and his PLO forces from Lebanon. By September 1, 1982, over 14,000 armed PLO forces had left Beirut. The PLO relocated their operations to Tunis, Tunisia."

2006 - 1982 = 24 years!

The Israelis not the PLO have continued to wage war on the innocent people of Lebanon ever since. Even during the 2000-2006 period since the Israelis were kicked out ofLebanon by Hezbollah the IDF continued state sanctioned murder and abductions of Lebanese citizens.

Related Link: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_lebanon_198x_idf_course.php
author by Michael Martinpublication date Fri Aug 25, 2006 00:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Did you ever check the JPFO site? Lots of good information in there about the current situation in the middle east.

Related Link: http://www.jpfo.org/
author by anonymou - left wingpublication date Fri Aug 25, 2006 22:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors


You soulnd like the IRA apologists of yesteryear stating that Hezbollah only bomb military targets. Of course, if you read the papers you will know this not to be true. The terrorists and lunatics are on both Israeli and Arab side.


author by anonymouspublication date Fri Aug 25, 2006 22:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors


2. If enemies main paymaster is the US and you do not have overwhelming military advantage then you attack by whatever means possible in order to stop the US paying for Israels war on Muslims. This works if timed correctly as shown in the Spanish and Italian general elections where the vote was altered by attacks and governments withdrew their troops from Iraq.

You should be arrested for saying this- as it is an incitement to hatred as has much of the rest of your text.
You may have been on some of the demonstrations on this issue as I was in Dundalk but you and I are miles apart.

How can you justify the murder of SPanish civilians? ...

90% of Spanish opposed the use of Spanish military in Iraq before your mates bombed the trains.

You friends who murdered over 300 Spanish civilians possibly served to increase support for the war and could have driven many Spanish behind the then pro-war government. The election was going to boot Aznar out in any case.


author by Cloud 9publication date Thu Aug 31, 2006 01:07author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This one’s funny no matter who you are!


Here is a little test that will help you decide. The answer can be found by posing the following question:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you.

You are carrying a Glock cal 40, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do??


Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor? Oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids?

Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation?

Does the Glock have an appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and my children?

Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?

Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? Should I call 9-1-1?

Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.

This is all so confusing! I need to discuss it with s ome friends over a latte and try to come to a consensus.





Daughter:! "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?"

Son: "Git-r-Dun Pop! Can I shoot the next one?!"

Wife: "You ain't taking that to the taxidermist!"

author by Niamhpublication date Sun Sep 03, 2006 14:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Jeez, I wish people could see the Israelis as human beings for once. Check out the link.

Related Link: http://www.conceptwizard.com/pipeline_of_hatred.html
author by kvmpublication date Wed Sep 13, 2006 09:47author address author phone Report this post to the editors

As I don't support boycotts of Israel, ('cos you would have to be boycotting the USA and the UK as well to be logical, but for some strange reason the boycotters don't call for that) I would like to evaluate this tramline project on its merits. To do that, more info is needed to examine the claim that the tramline consolidates the annexation of East Jerusalem. Can anyone provide a link to a map of the line and explain the topology and development issues?

Were a Palestinian state to be founded and peace agreed with Israel, the tramline as such would not be a bad thing, would it?

Regarding the Palestinian State, the sooner the better if you ask me. The fact that part of the national territory is under occupation is no reason not to proceed. At the time the Irish Republic was proclaimed and the Dail founded, all of Ireland was under a brutal occupation....So never mind East Jerusalem, abandon the terror against israeli civilians, forget the endless ambiguity and corruption of the Arrafat era, and get the show up and working. Then we can start on the task of smashing the wall and extending tramlines.

author by Angrypublication date Fri Sep 22, 2006 02:19author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I wish half you idots would go and travel a bit, as a serving soldier with the Irish defence Forces I had the oppertunity to serve iin South Lebanon with UNIFIL, whilst I don't agree with the Israeli Defence Force actions in Southern Lebanon, I can see why the Israeli government acted with such aggression. On nurmous occassions Hizzbullah (terrorists) have fired from civilian population areas and UN forces positions, including Irish defence forces positions into Northen Isreal. As a nation the state of Israel has the right to defend itself from armed attack, much the same if France or Sweden or Italy would have that right if attacked from another nations soil if attacked in the same manner.
Israel is the only middle eastern country where citizens have free speech and political freedom. Can the same be said of Palinestine.

author by Big Redpublication date Tue Oct 03, 2006 01:43author address author phone Report this post to the editors

What you can see from here you can not see from there.
Well said "Angry"

author by Cloud 9publication date Sun Oct 22, 2006 01:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Interesting reading:


author by Cloud 9publication date Fri Oct 27, 2006 18:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This was in The Daily Sport today - British version of New York Post
The View from Here

Subject: If you're going to boycott Israel - do it properly!

"OK. So I understand that you are ticked off at Israel, and in
love with the Palestinians.
That's fine with me, as long as you have truly weighed up all the

So, you want to boycott Israel? I'll be sorry to miss you, but
if you are doing it - do it properly. Let me help you.

Check all your medications. Make sure that you do not have
tablets, drops, lotions, etc., made by Abic or Teva. It may mean that
you will suffer from colds and flu this winter but, hey, that's a small
price for you to pay in your campaign against Israel, isn't it?

While we are on the subject of your Israeli boycott, and the
medical contributions to the world made by Israeli doctors and
scientists, how about telling your pals to boycott the following.....

An Israeli company has developed a simple blood test that
distinguishes between mild
and more severe cases of Multiple Sclerosis. So, if you know anyone
suffering from MS, tell them to ignore the Israeli patent that may,
more accurately, diagnose their symptoms.

An Israeli-made device helps restore the use of paralyzed
hands. This device electrically stimulates the hand muscles, providing
hope to millions of stroke sufferers and victims of spinal injuries. If
you wish to remove this hope of a better quality of life to these
people, go ahead and boycott Israel.

Young children with breathing problems will soon be sleeping more
soundly, thanks to a new Israeli device called the Child Hood. This
innovation replaces the inhalation mask with an improved drug delivery
system that provides relief for child and parent. Please tell anxious
mothers that they shouldn't use this device because of your passionate

These are just a few examples of how people have benefited
medically from the Israeli know-how you wish to block. Boycotts often
affect research. A new research center in Israel hopes to throw light
on brain disorders such as depression and Alzheimer's disease. The
Joseph Sangol Neuroscience Center in the Sheba Medical Center at Tel
HaShomer Hospital, aims to bring thousands of scientists and doctors to
focus on brain research.

A researcher at Israel's Ben Gurion University has succeeded in
creating human monoclonal antibodies which can neutralize the highly
contagious smallpox virus without inducing the dangerous side effects
of the existing vaccine.

Two Israelis received the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Doctors
Ciechanover and Hershko's research and discovery of one of the human
cells most important cyclical processes will lead the way to DNA
repair, control of newly produced proteins, and immune defense systems.

The Movement Disorder Surgery program at Israel's Hadassah
Medical Center has successfully eliminated the physical manifestations
of Parkinson's disease in a select group of patients with a deep brain
stimulation technique. For women who undergo hysterectomies each year
for the treatment of uterine fibroids, the development in Israel of
the Ex Ablate 2000 System is a welcome breakthrough, offering a
noninvasive alternative to surgery.

Israel is developing a nose drop that will provide a five year
flu vaccine. These are just a few of the projects that you can help
stop with your Israeli boycott.

But let's not get too obsessed with my ducal research, there are
other ways you can make a personal sacrifice with your anti-Israel
boycott. Most of Windows operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel. So, set a personal example. Throw away your computer!
Computers should have a sign attached saying Israel Inside. The
Pentium NMX Chip technology was designed at Intel in Israel. Both the
Pentium 4 microprocessor and the Centrum processor were entirely
designed, developed, and produced in Israel.
Voice mail technology was developed in Israel. The technology for the
AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 in Israel by four young
Israeli whiz kids.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R. & D. facilities
outside the US in Israel.
So, due to your complete boycott of anything Israeli, you now have
poor health and no computer. But your bad news does not end there. Get
rid of your cellular phone.
Cell phone technology was also developed in Israel by MOTOROLA which
has its biggest development center in Israel. Most of the latest
technology in your mobile phone was developed by Israeli scientists.

Feeling unsettled? You should be. Part of your personal security
rests with Israeli inventiveness, borne out of our urgent necessity to
protect and defend our lives from the terrorists you support.

A phone can remotely activate a bomb, or be used for tactical
communications by terrorists, bank robbers, or hostage-takers. It is
vital that official security and law enforcement authorities have
access to cellular jamming and detection solutions. Enter Israel's Net
line Communications Technologies with their security expertise to help
the fight against terror.

A joint, nonprofit, venture between Israel and Maryland will
result in a 5 day Business Development and Planning Conference next
March. Elected Israeli companies will partner with Maryland firms to
provide innovation to the US need for homeland security.

I also want you to know that Israel has the highest ratio of
university degrees to the population in the world. Israel produces more
scientific papers per capita - 109 per 10,000 - than any other nation.
Israel has the highest number of startup companies per rata. In
absolute terms, the highest number, except the US. Israel has ratio of
patents filed. Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech
companies outside of Silicon Valley. Israel is ranked 2 in the world
for venture capital funds, behind the USA. Israel has more museums per
capita. Israel has the second highest publication of new books per

Relative to population, Israel is the largest immigrant absorbing
nation on earth. These immigrants come in search of democracy,
religious freedom or expression, economic opportunity, and quality of

Believe it or not, Israel is the only country in the world which
had a net gain in the number of trees last year. Even Warren Buffet of
Berkshire-Hathaway fame has just invested millions with Israeli

So, you can vilify and demonize the State of Israel. You can
continue your silly boycott, if you wish. But I wish you would consider
the consequences, and the truth.

Think of the massive contribution that Israel is giving to the
world, including the Palestinians - and to you - in science, medicine,
Communications, security. Pro rata for population we are making a
greater contribution than any other nation on earth.

We can't be all bad....."

My comment: So what have the Muslim nations contributed to the world?

author by PaddyKpublication date Sun Oct 29, 2006 15:30author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Only an utter bigot would list the development of a few medicines, then ask, what have Muslims given the world. Most of what's on this page is crap, but when some joker asks what Islam has contributed to the world you know he has probably never read a single book in his life.

Sad ignoramuses of the world unite. I'm quite sure most Israelis would be relieved not to be associated with this type of racist ignorance.

They may live in a propaganda bubble but they still read books, unlike the troglodytes on this page.

author by Balar of the Baleful Eyepublication date Sun Oct 29, 2006 18:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Protests against Connex were related to the actions of the State of Israel, conflating this with a pro-Islamic religion re-inforces the argument that the Israeli state is sectarian, and that not all citizens are equal. Worse still, it is racist, because citizenship is granted, not on the basis of religious belief, but by ancestry on the maternal side.

What has Islamic culture ever done for us?
Invention of the telescope - Elecenth Century, and other optics which helped in the aforementioned discoveries.

Initiated the European Rennaisance through the translations of Aristotle, introduced to Europe by Averroes (Tenth Century Spain).

Beautiful poetry of Omar Kyan, and wonderful perspectives of Sufi mystics.

Introduction of the concept of Zero to European Mathematics in the Eleventh Century AD.

By contrast, benefits of the pharmaceutical industry are greatly over-stated. Generally speaking, they lead to dependence not cure; they tackle symptoms, not causes. Many are just placibos, and many anti-depressents cause people to commit suicide - something people can well do without.

Related Link: http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=69076
author by PaddyKpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 13:26author address author phone Report this post to the editors


Omri Evron, a 19-year-old from Tel-Aviv, refuses to serve in the Israeli Army on a moral stance.

He refuses to allow his right to exist as a non-militarised person to be violated by a corrupt , right wing racist government that would send him to crush Palestinian Society in Occupied Palestine. He is a true hero of war who now languishes in prison, a captive of the racist Israeli regime but a free man in his own heart.

When Israeli Youth educate themselves about the brutal annihalation of Palestinian Society that is being perpetrated just miles away from their calm neighbiourhoods we will start to see more Omri Evrons and an end to this horror will be in sight.

If the message of truth can just get through the propaganda bubble that isolates Israeli Youth they too will act on their consceince and refuse to participate. Of his fellow countrymen he says :

" Most young Israelis don't know what the IDF is doing to the Palestinians. Most young Israelis had never visited a Palestinian town or talked to a Palestinian. Many don't know what life is like on the other side of the border. But I have gone there, and I know how the Palestinians suffer as a result of the occupation. That's why I just can't become a soldier in the IDF. I simply can't do it ".

Letters of support to Omri Evron and other Israeli conscientious objectors can be sent to: shministim@gmail.com

author by spliffpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 13:51author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Omri Evron, a 19-year-old from Tel-Aviv, refuses to serve in the Israeli Army on a moral stance

Everyone else has to,what makes him special? hes a commie, they should trade him to Hamas for the soldier that they hold, he could go and fight for them then, they always need suicide bombers

author by PaddyKpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 14:42author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The above post is proof positive of the long held belief in conservative society that smoking spliffs will damage some peoples ability to think straight. This spliff lover calls Omri Evron a commie because he refuses to serve in the oppression and occupaion of Palestine.
Spliffhead forgets the Commie invasion of Poland and the Commie Empire that was the only military force to challenge American Hegemony for decades. The same Commie Army that occupied and oppressed the people of Eastern Europe behind a Seperation wall for years.

Spliffboy fails to understand that Omri Evron is giving up his freedom to walk the streets of Tel Aviv in return for not having to beat shoot and harrass the captive Palestinians. Omri is a modern day hero of Israel. Spliffboy is a smoked out bewildered hippy with no respect for his own mental health .

author by Spliffheadpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 15:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This spliff lover calls Omri Evron a commie because he refuses to serve in the oppression and occupaion of Palestine

No i say that because he is a commie, end of! he is an active communist activist in Israel

Not many of them around that area actually as Israels neighbours tend to shoot any opposition to their power, as unlike Israel they are not DEMOCRATIC

Related Link: http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/4274/1/216/
author by PaddyKpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 16:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"he is an active communist activist in Israel"

Inactive spliffhead inactivist,
Perhaps Omri Evron is some kind of a Commie in his spare time, perhaps he's also a model train entheusiast, but neither of these is what drove him to his actions in refusing to serve as a thug for the Israeli Occupation Army. It was his conscience as a young free man not to use his freedom to kill maim and beat women and children outside the borders of his own country. This in itself is not a commie ideal, as commie regimes have proven themselves to be avid oppressors and occupiers. In fact, being a comitted Refusenik puts him idelogically further from being a communist than if he were a committed Zionist and he may well be a committed Zionist also.

Being an "active communist activist" does not make him a hero and a role model for his peers, but having the moral courage to resist enslavement to the Racist Israeli Governing Regime does make him a modern day hero for Israel and for all of us. People like him are the only real chance for Israel to survive into the future as a peaceful Jewish country by showing the world that being Jewish in Israel is not synonomous with being an implement of oppression and militarism.

Presently, the Rogue Israeli military junta is ensuring that modern Israel is synonomous with Fascism not Democracy. Men and women like Omri Evron are the ones in Israel who will change what the next generation want for their country. True Democracy.

Write letters to Omri Evron military ID 6153157, military mail 02507, IDF

author by spliffheadpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 17:09author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Hi my name is Omri Evron and I'm new here.

I'm a 17 year old political activist from Israel. I am a highschool student and I also study history and philosophy in the Open University. I'm a member of the YCLI (Young Communist League of Israel), a youth group of Jews and Arabs in Israel that strives for peace, equallity, justice and socialism:

I'm also one of the ogranizers of the Shministim Letter of high-school refusniks:
We are all young Israelies racing our draft to the IDF- and we declare that we will refuse to take part in the Occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people. Because of this I will probebly be sent to jail by my own government when my drat comes (in a year). Currently there are 4 refuseniks in jail or between jail periods.

I am active a lot against the Israeli occupation of Palestine and against the right-wing government in Israel. I spend a lot of time fighting for the rights of the Palestinians, the workers and the lower classes in Israel. I also participate in New Profile (a feminist refusenik group) and Green Action (a radical enviromental gruop), as well as Israeli-Arabic and anti-racist groups, animal rights and more.

I consider myself as a communist, pacifist, vegetarian (eventually I'll be a vegan), femenist, humanist (and so on).

Well, this is what I have to say about myself. If you want to know anything just ask.

PaddyK--Just for juuuuu, can you ever get it right? ACTIVE my freind and PLANNED.

Related Link: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/lofiversion/index.php/t36778.html
author by PaddyKpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 17:46author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Iam getting it right Spliffie,

But As my dear old Mom used to say, 'You're too spliffed out your mind to get it"

This corageuous young man says:

"I consider myself as a communist, pacifist, vegetarian (eventually I'll be a vegan), femenist, humanist (and so on)."

Granted he has ommitted Train Entheusiast, but thats not important either, we get the picture that he's an idealist.

But it's important to note Spliffhead, that this young idealist states of himself and his peers:

"We are all young Israelies racing our draft to the IDF- and we declare that we will refuse to take part in the Occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people."

This is a heroic moral stance which we must consider as having come from the man's moral ideology not his youthful political persuasion.

His friends must feel very proud of him.

Unlike the friends of someone who cant see the forest or the trees though all the spliff smoke.

author by spliffheadpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 17:58author address author phone Report this post to the editors

There are reports that Ismail Haniyeh the Hamas prime minister has called for a cease-fire, but Israel has refused to accept the terms of the cease-fire. Therefore, the fighting goes on and it seems as if it will last for quite some time.

The Palestinians have achieved nothing by their attitude. It is doubtful even if Haniyeh has any influence on the Hamas terrorist groups. The Palestinian Authority under PM Haniyeh is losing control over the situation and it seems highly unlikely that the Palestinian terrorists will agree to cease their terror despite the appeals of their so-called political leadership. Hamas is leading the Palestinian People to total disaster and untold suffering. They lost the opportunity after the withdrawal of Israel from Gaza. The choice was in their hands whether to establish responsible government to improve the lot of their people or to continue the bloody path of terrorism against Israel by allowing their Islamist fantasies to dictate their future tactics. They chose the latter and therefore they shall pay a heavy price for their folly.

Many of us who are in the peace camp now believe that the Palestinian leadership has no desire to come to terms with Israel’s existence. The Palestinian violence since October 2000 has brought this message home. Our dreams of a two state solution, Israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace, security and dignity have been shattered. Continuing Palestinian violence against Israel has divided and destroyed the Israeli peace camp. If there were any doubts as to the ruling Hamas intentions, it would be a good idea to refresh one’s memory by reading the Hamas Charter that leaves one without any doubt as to what the Palestinian leadership wishes to achieve. The Hamas Charter promotes genocide of the Jewish people in Israel! It is difficult to engage in negotiations with a Hamas leadership that does not recognize Israel’s right to exist and justifies her destruction.

PaddyK, people want peace, but they realise all too well that HAMAS cannot deliver anything but pain and suffering

author by PaddyKpublication date Mon Oct 30, 2006 18:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors


If I wanted to have a debate with Shimon Zachary Klein , A Pharmacist in Bat Chefer, Israel . I would have looked him up at his blogsite http://shimonzk.blogspot.com/2006/07/war-against-hamas.html where you plagiarised him in an attempt to appear coherent and not completely stoned on Grade 1 Taliban MaryJane.

He is in Israel having moved from South Africa, Dont know the guy or if his preference for living in two tier social systems is a reflection of his ethics.
But one thing I do know about him is that he spouts the typical Anti-Palestinian rubbish like a good citizen. The fact that he doesn't come close to making a proper argument and you copy him says it all for me about you lot.

I dont think plagiarism is an offense, by the way, so you wont have to go to prison. Unlike the corageous young idealist Omri Evron who did for reasons that you will probably never grasp.


author by Big Redpublication date Wed Nov 01, 2006 00:13author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Paddy paddy

My question still remains the same, besides blowing up people, planes , subways, railroad cars, raising the price of gasoline thru the roof ,

So what have the Muslim nations contributed to the world lately?
If all what Israel contributed to the world you call nonsense than you are the bigott, you are the antisemite, the ugly Irishman, the drunk idiot.
Hope on your next flight your friendly muslim friends will send you to their 72 virgins, of course in pieces.
Have a great flight, asshole.
Luckily not all Irishman are as stupid as you are.

author by Big Redpublication date Thu Nov 02, 2006 07:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Someone wrote:

PALs have perfected and raised the Art of Suicide to a National Level. They shun all peace efforts. They started Intifada I & II, kidnap and murder, launch rockets at innocent civilians, and cry foul when Israel defends itself and strikes back. They had a booming economy before they chose the road of war in 2000 with Intifada II. Their terror attacks on Israel go back nearly 100 years. Their total compulsion to destroy us has backfired and is totally destroying them and its is all their doing. They know nothing except murdering us and when they are not murdering us, they are murdering each other. This is not just PALs but we see it in Iraq and everywhere as well. THey destroy holy shrines (Budha in Afghanistan, Najaf, India, etc.) and use shrines, schools, and hospitals to base their terror. Again they cry foul when people fight back at shrines, hospitals, and school. They have brought terror to almost every continent. G-d help the penguins when Arab/Moslems reach antarctica

author by Big Redpublication date Thu Nov 02, 2006 07:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

and someone else wrote:

It is always easy, Mr. Nasrallah, to blame others for your own terrible failures. The United States helped the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan in their struggle against the USSR, and what did they get in return: the killers of Al-Qaida. The United States refrained from using force to free its diplomats taken hostage by Islamic extremists in Iran, and what was the resonse: "death to America." The United States and France had sent peace keepers to Lebanon, and what was Hizbollah`s response: cold blooded murder of hundreds of those peace keepers. The West opens its doors to Muslim immigrants, and what is the response: terror attacks, murder and mayhem. The responsibility for the current situation in Afghanistan and Iraq rests squarly on the shoulders of extremists who hate everything Western, but also each other. You, Mr. Nasrallah, and your fellow extrimists do nothing but sow death and destruction upon your own people and upon others. Hatred is the very essence of your extrimism.

author by The big Bluepublication date Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:56author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Big red,

in your blistering atatck on muslims and Palestinians in particular you mentioned one thing

PALs have perfected and raised the Art of Suicide to a National Level. They shun all peace efforts. They started Intifada I & II, kidnap and murder, launch rockets at innocent civilians, and cry foul when Israel defends itself and strikes back. They had a booming economy before they chose the road of war in 2000 with Intifada II. Their terror attacks on Israel go back nearly 100 years.

Firstly, how can palestinians have been launching terror atatcks going back 100 years, the state of Israel was only founded in 1948. 100 years ago Palestine was Palestine within the Ottoman empire after that it was the British mandate of Palestine. 100 years ago the Jewish population of Palestine was about 5-10%. It was jewish groups like the Stern Gang etc that brought Terrorism into Palestine-just ask the British in the King David Hotel. It was these Israeli groups who attacked British peacekeeprs who were trying to enforce a Un peace deal prior to 1948.

Since 1967 Israel has been involved in an illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, thats not just me saying this, its the UN, international law, geneva conventions hell even the US admits its an occupation.

You say Palestinians kidnap and murder yet there are 11000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons without charge or trial, Amnesty International annually lists the crimes inflicted by Israel including, murder, kindnap and torture. Israel is currently being investigated by the UN for its activites in lebanon, including using phosporus and depleted uranium munitions against civilan areas. remember in israel if you are in a Jewish/Muslim marriage you cannot live together.

Big Red dont use Palestine as an excuse/rationale for your Muslim hatred, remember a significant portion of Palestinians are christian and Palestine is recognised as being one for the most secular states in the ME, but hold on a minute isnt Israel a theocratic religious state?

author by Big Bluepublication date Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:59author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Oh and Big Red,
the US didnt refrain from using force from feeing their hostages in Iran, they tried and failed miserably when the helicopters crashed in the desert. Their first option was military force the hsotages were freed in the end by a diplomatic deal which unfroze Iranian assets in the US in return for the hostages

read your history as with everything you say it seems to be a litte confused

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